[quote]Grneyes wrote:
Hmmm…I think Push is making fun of me… ;)[/quote]
Greeny, you can’t make a RogueVampirish type comment and expect me to sit on the sidelines selling hot dogs.[/quote]
LOL…Now I feel insulted…RogueVampirish? How? By not agreeing the Catholic Church is a special snowflake and deserves special privileges over every other religion? What happened to separation of church and state?[/quote]
Wait…this isn’t just about Catholics, btw.[/quote]
Yeah, but you guys are making the biggest stink about it. Get over yourselves.[/quote]
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Just to stir the pot a little:
Survey after survey has shown that U.S. Catholics neither agree with official church teachings on contraception nor follow them.
[/quote]
Not relevant as to what the government should be forcing Catholic associations to do.
[/quote]
Yeah, but it makes you wonder why the hell you’re arguing anyway. [/quote]
Freedom of association and religion, if it wasn’t clear. Go buy your own birth control.
[/quote]
I do, which is discounted through my health insurance plan. It’s only $5 if I get the generic but I don’t trust generics for something like that. [/quote]
Why not?
It is the exact same drug, often produced by the exact same company.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Just to stir the pot a little:
Survey after survey has shown that U.S. Catholics neither agree with official church teachings on contraception nor follow them.
[/quote]
Not relevant as to what the government should be forcing Catholic associations to do.
[/quote]
Yeah, but it makes you wonder why the hell you’re arguing anyway. [/quote]
Freedom of association and religion, if it wasn’t clear. Go buy your own birth control.
[/quote]
I do, which is discounted through my health insurance plan. It’s only $5 if I get the generic but I don’t trust generics for something like that. [/quote]
Oh goody. Now, we’ll be handling our own business, in our own associations. No government will change that. Consider the Obama edict vetoed.
[/quote]
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
What happened to separation of church and state?[/quote]
I dunno, conform or GTFO?
I must say that the eloquence with which constitutional doctrine is put forward has suffered quite a bit over the last 2 centuries.
Interestingly enough the Amish are exempt, from pretty much all social security schemes, which is why American libertarians should get an Amish chapter asap.
Anyhow, the reason is that the Amish do not give a fuck. You can leave them alone or you can round them up and put them into a re-education camp, but what you cannot do is to intrude, inch by inch, into their lives.
Just one of the benefits of strong communities, that do not even dream of deifying governments.
I’m an atheist, and can’t believe Grneyes’ ignorant view. Grneyes, your mother isn’t being forced to work somewhere with Catholic ties, she is more than welcome to go find another employer if she is unhappy with her current one or what they offer.
[quote]Grneyes wrote:<<< Conform or GTFO.[/quote]I jist couldn’t pass this up either, especially after the rest of the anti-American crap this person has hurled upon my screen. There we have it folks. The delusional liberal dream. As I say. A divided country cannot long persist in freedom. Sadly we are moving in the direction this America hating, God hating collectivist wants us to and the college age drones today will likely usher her utopia in for us barring a mighty move of the Spirit of God upon our citizenry which I will continue to believe for.
Then go start YOUR OWN country! MOVE to Ireland! Move to Vatican City! WTF? You’re not special, you know. You are not a snowflake. Conform or GTFO.[/quote]
I should throw in here too that there can’t be anybody here who hates the Roman Catholic Church (not the same as Roman CathoicS) more than I do. I do not however want state thuggery employed to force a private institution to abandon convictions that are not otherwise unconstitutional, in other words inline with the original moral trajectory of this nation. Yes, this nation once had a very pronounced and overt moral trajectory. I believe the bishop of Rome is an undiluted spiritual fraud, but he can still be and is my political ally in many instances.
[quote]Tattoo85 wrote:
I’m an atheist, and can’t believe Grneyes’ ignorant view. Grneyes, your mother isn’t being forced to work somewhere with Catholic ties, she is more than welcome to go find another employer if she is unhappy with her current one or what they offer. [/quote]
She’s retired, asshole. I am not ignorant. I was making a point about the equality of health plans offered by Catholic institutions and non-Catholic institutions. In no way did I imply she was forced, I was using it as an example. Reading comprehension fail. Go back to first grade.
[quote]Grneyes wrote:<<< Conform or GTFO.[/quote]I jist couldn’t pass this up either, especially after the rest of the anti-American crap this person has hurled upon my screen. There we have it folks. The delusional liberal dream. As I say. A divided country cannot long persist in freedom. Sadly we are moving in the direction this America hating, God hating collectivist wants us to and the college age drones today will likely usher her utopia in for us barring a mighty move of the Spirit of God upon our citizenry which I will continue to believe for.
[/quote]
Wait a minute, I’m anti-American? WTF? Where did you get that from? I am one of the most patriotic people I know. Just because I’m not a right-wing Conservative Christian intent on forcing Conservative Christianity on the entire universe does NOT mean I’m anti-American. And don’t paraphrase Lincoln and then say YOU say that because HE said it first (“A house divided against itself cannot stand,” June 16, 1858) . He was one of the best POTUS’s we’ve had, and he would be ASHAMED of the GOP today. Shit, Jesus would be ashamed of Christianity today. This country is NOT about Christianity and following Christ’s word, it is NOT a theocracy and was never intended to be. It was founded so people could worship how they wanted to (though the Puritans didn’t necessarily follow what they preached, but that’s a different convo). It has been debated that the founding fathers of this country weren’t so purely Christian as everyone likes to think (Hello, Jefferson’s practically rewriting of the Bible into the Jefferson Bible and his version of Christ’s true word. No Christian would take that lightly).
This country is awesome, it always has been and if the gov’t could get their heads out of their asses, it will continue to be so. We have contributed so much to the world and can and will contribute so much more. Are there problems? Hell yeah! Can we fix them? Hell yeah! It just takes work and dedication.
In a country that is about equality, I just don’t understand why work sponsored health plans can’t be equal across the board, no matter if the organization is secular, Catholic, Jewish, or whatever. Offer the same protections for everyone, if those protections go against your religious views, don’t take them, don’t use them. It’s that simple. Be tolerant of other people, other views. Isn’t that what Christ taught?
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Just to stir the pot a little:
Survey after survey has shown that U.S. Catholics neither agree with official church teachings on contraception nor follow them.
[/quote]
Not relevant as to what the government should be forcing Catholic associations to do.
[/quote]
It does ask the question of whether the leaders of these associations are acting in the interest of the group they represent.
[/quote]
And that question should be answered.
By the people in that organization and noone else.
[/quote]
So we’re not allowed to discuss it?
I haven’t stated my opinion on the OP.
[/quote]
Sure we can.
But, a lot of people seem to be utterly unable to draw a line between “lets discuss this” and “there oughta be a law”.
I blame fluoride in the drinking water.
[/quote]
Mmmmm…flouride…wait, what?
Orion, why are you Austrian and not American? You have an inordinate amount of interest in us and our goings on. Why not just move here and get it over with?
[quote]Grneyes wrote:<<< Be tolerant of other people, other views. Isn’t that what Christ taught? [/quote]No.
I’ll try n help ya out with the rest of your post later. I doubt it will do any good though.
In a country that is about equality,[/quote] It isn’t, besides the most basic rights. Heck, all you get is a right to pursue happiness. Not have it provided.[quote]I just don’t understand why work sponsored health plans can’t be equal across the board[/quote] Because they’re work-sponsored. You know, by the place of work one chose to work at [quote]no matter if the organization is secular, Catholic, Jewish, or whatever. Offer the same protections for everyone,[/quote] How many insurance policies are you sponsoring, for anyone? In any event, they do offer the same protections for everyone working for a Catholic hospital. Neither Catholic, Jew, or atheist gets contraception covered. See, equality [quote]if those protections go against your religious views, don’t take them, don’t use them.[/quote] If those religious view go against your views, don’t take the job and then turn around and stab the employer in the back[quote] It’s that simple. Be tolerant of other people, other views. Isn’t that what Christ taught? [/quote]
Your idea of tolerance is conformity and equal outcomes. And no, that isn’t what Christ taught.
In a country that is about equality,[/quote] It isn’t, besides the most basic rights. Heck, all you get is a right to pursue happiness. Not have it provided.[quote]I just don’t understand why work sponsored health plans can’t be equal across the board[/quote] Because they’re work-sponsored. You know, by the place of work one chose to work at [quote]no matter if the organization is secular, Catholic, Jewish, or whatever. Offer the same protections for everyone,[/quote] How many insurance policies are you sponsoring, for anyone? In any event, they do offer the same protections for everyone working for a Catholic hospital. Neither Catholic, Jew, or atheist gets contraception covered. See, equality [quote]if those protections go against your religious views, don’t take them, don’t use them.[/quote] If those religious view go against your views, don’t take the job and then turn around and stab the employer in the back[quote] It’s that simple. Be tolerant of other people, other views. Isn’t that what Christ taught? [/quote]
Your idea of tolerance is conformity and equal outcomes. And no, that isn’t what Christ taught.
[/quote]
No, my idea of equality is offering the same to everybody, what you choose to do with it is up to you. In that one specific way, yes, it’s about conformity, it’s about conforming to the law. Everyone conforms to something, society, law, family tradition, religious doctrine. Life is about conforming; the weird, abnormal, individual, is usually cast out, cast off, derided. History has shown this. What’s wrong with asking Catholic institutions to conform to the law and offer contraception in their health plans? It’s not like the law is making Catholics TAKE contraception, it’s just giving the non-Catholics the same options as other people employed by non-Catholic businesses. We’re not asking you to re-write Catholic dogma, just to offer the same things that others are offered.
It’s only $5 if I get the generic but I don’t trust generics for something like that. [/quote]
