Forces Of The Universe

[quote]pookie wrote:
sasquatch wrote:
To assume I must be talking about faith because I want you to clarify/prove some of your spoutings, is a bad debate strategy.

Never assume.

Ok, I won’t. I’d still like to know why a finite universe is so unacceptable to you? You really seem dead set against the idea, and I’m curious as to why.[/quote]

Not unacceptable to me at all, just not how I see things. We discover new things, further away each ‘day.’ Why limit ourselves to what we can see.

I am not a scholar. I do not believe in another life form that travels to my universe. But I want to believe that we do not have all the answers. That there is more out there.

Truth be told, until this thread I never gave it alot of thought, how I might believe. But as I read and learn, it becomes a bit unsettling to me to think that you think you have all the answers, or at least access to them in some book.

I do believe in God and my religion. That comes to no surprise to anyone who has read numerous other threads. I can’t describe him, and you can’t discount him scientifically, so my thought process says–There must be more out there.

[quote]wufwugy wrote:
back when i listened and read a Christian Evangelist’s, Ravi Zacharias, philosophies i came across a comment he made about “i think therefore i am.” he said that Descarte made a logical leap, and that it should read, “i think therefore thinking exists.”

now years later i still can’t, for the life of me, figure out what that’s supposed to mean or if it even means something different than “i think therefore i am.”

thoughts?[/quote]

If you look at the statement in isolation, and quite literally, it is fallacious. The reason can be stated thusly: If there is a great deceiver, and this deceiver has made me believe that the world as it is is real, when it is not, and has given me false memories, and in all ways has made my perceptions false, then my conception of self is also unreliable.

Further, the idea of I, myself, as an independent entity from the great deceiver may not exist. I may exist only as a part of the great deceiver, not independently. Therefore if we take “I” literally as the ego, or idea of self, then the statement fails. But if we take the statement as Descartes meant it, it means that I think, and therefore must exist, although “I” may in fact actually be the great deceiver. I exist, but I am uncertain of my identity.

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
But not you or anyone else can tell me, without qualification , that the universe is finite. It may be all we know now, that I can accept.
[/quote]

Sasquatch, it might help if you clarify what you mean by the universe being “finite” or “infinite.” Do you mean by infinite that there is an infinite amount of mass in the universe (infinite planets, stars, dark matter, whatever), or perhaps an infinite amount of space? That is, there is no “edge” or “wrap around” to the universe?

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
Not unacceptable to me at all, just not how I see things. We discover new things, further away each ‘day.’ Why limit ourselves to what we can see.[/quote]

I see it as limiting ourselves to “reasonable” (in the sense of “able to deduce from reason”) things. I also have no stake in whether the universe is finite or infinite. I do enjoy reading about how men much smarter than I have pondered the same question; proposed experiments to establish the most likely answer, or reached it from available observation. I mean no offence, but simply rejecting a theory because “you see things differently” seems to be simple stubborness to me.

I’ve seen a similar comment a few times, and I really don’t understand where that comes from. I’ve repeated many times that scientific theories are not final answers; but simply the best current explanation we’ve got for a phenomenon. That we still have a lot to learn and discover is not even open for question.

In every domain, be it mathematics, physics, biology, genetics, etc. We have much, much to learn.

Nobody has all the answers, least of all me. But science is a method through which we can arrive at good or at least approximate “answers” and then build from those first approximations to a better understanding of our world. I personally think that it is a remarkable human achievement. A tool that allows us to better apply our intelligence and reason and that allows for falsification and revision at any time.

A scientist can take a theory he doesn’t like or believes to be in error and try to poke holes thru it. Or better, he comes up with a new theory that not only explains everything the old one does, but also plugs some holes the old one had. That new theory will then be subjected to the scientific community who will examine it, critique it; quite possibly improve it through some minor revisions and eventually accept it as a “better” explanation than the old theory. In that way human knowledge and understanding increases.

Well you’ve already got more than our probably finite universe simply in the notion of an eternal afterlife. A whole other reality not subject to the limitations of this one. (I hope you’ll forgive me for assuming that your belief in God includes a survival of the self after death…)

[quote]nephorm wrote:
sasquatch wrote:
Not one thing in this world can be proven to be absolutely true.

One thing absolutely can: Cogito ergo sum.
[/quote]

Sorry, a little late here, but I think even this is not certain. The phrase is simply a formulation of our grammatical custom that adds a doer to every deed. I think you already pointed this out, but it is indeed a leap of logic to assume that there is someone doing the thinking and not just the thinking that exists. Descartes’ assertion that he IS because he thinks merely supports a very strong belief and is by no means an effective defence against nihilism, in my opinion…and (cough) Nietzsche’s

[quote]nephorm wrote:
sasquatch wrote:
But not you or anyone else can tell me, without qualification , that the universe is finite. It may be all we know now, that I can accept.

Sasquatch, it might help if you clarify what you mean by the universe being “finite” or “infinite.” Do you mean by infinite that there is an infinite amount of mass in the universe (infinite planets, stars, dark matter, whatever), or perhaps an infinite amount of space? That is, there is no “edge” or “wrap around” to the universe? [/quote]

Would not the belief in one, lend itself to belief in the other?

the verbage infinite and finite comes from this discussion and I have repeated it merely with my understanding of these words. If that is incorrect, then I have to apaologize for leading some astray.

nephorm,

so “i think therefore i am” is a statement about the interconnectedness of existence? all things being one and the same? like string theory, chaos theory, karma, taoism, etc.?

would the statement “i think therefore i exist, i exist therefore i am existence, existence thinks therefore existence is i” be what Descartes was getting at?

p.s. is string theory still a good and progressing theory? it’s been a few years since i’ve delved into theoretical physics.

p.p.s does anybody believe karma? i tend to believe that all things in existence is a balance among opposites, hence i have a sorta different idea about karma. my idea: good must balance out bad, vice versa. good added to good is imbalancing, vice versa. my hypothesis is that karma is actually the opposite of what is popularly understood. i think it may be that the more good one does the more bad must happen in order to restore balance, vice versa. ex: the more i lift the weaker i get. but then again, the more i rest the stronger i get (maybe i just answered my own question).

thoughts?

pookie

Appropriate answers all.

I can’t say how I believe in the afterlife, as this is not a main focus of my belief system. To clarify, it is a focus of my religion, just not one I choose to dwell on significantly.

You have given me much to ponder and I’m appreciative of your curteous and well thought out answers. As to their merit, I need to do a little research before I jump into your boat.

Bottom line-- maybe it’s stubbornness or maybe it’s just not being totally convinced that all can be defined by science–

RE: infinity

a finite universe would be as miniross said. an infinite universe would be one that cannot be quantified or qualified.

i find infinity possible because we haven’t been able to quantify or qualify the universe; or do i see that actually being a possible thing to do.

as far as i can tell, everything in the universe behaves like an organism. by organism, i mean something that grows from within, from an unquantifiable and unqualifiable source within. it may be difficult to equate objects like planets and stars to organisms, but i imagine that if we could see them from a macrocosm they would behave like what we see in microcosm, ex: the cells of our bodies. we are their universe.

so i make the hypothesis that the universe is behaving like an organism and is growing from an unquantifiable, unqualifiable source. possibly, in order to understand the big bang we may need to understand how it is still in progress.

this is really the only way i can understand infinity.

[quote]Orbitalboner wrote:
Sorry, a little late here, but I think even this is not certain. The phrase is simply a formulation of our grammatical custom that adds a doer to every deed. I think you already pointed this out, but it is indeed a leap of logic to assume that there is someone doing the thinking and not just the thinking that exists. Descartes’ assertion that he IS because he thinks merely supports a very strong belief and is by no means an effective defence against nihilism, in my opinion…and (cough) Nietzsche’s [/quote]

I don’t think that’s accurate, orbital… the latin is literally Cogito=I think ergo = therefore sum = I am, I exist. There’s no leap of logic to assume that someone is doing the thinking unless we assume that it’s a human someone. If there’s thinking going on, than as a truism, that “someone-ness” is associated with that thinking. Its being an entity is a fact directly springing from its thinking… with or without some corporeal parts. Unless I misunderstood, which is possible.

Nietzsche didn’t deny existence, he denied values. He was actually rather disgusted with nihilists. For Nietzsche, the phrase changed to “I have willed, therefore I am,” however.

[quote]wufwugy wrote:
so “i think therefore i am” is a statement about the interconnectedness of existence? all things being one and the same? like string theory, chaos theory, karma, taoism, etc.?
[/quote]

No, but you’d really need to read the Discourse. It is about epistemology… how do we know what we know? It is also about radical skepticism, and a failed attempt to find a fully rational base for the sciences.

No, and especially no because he would’ve been branded a heretic and killed. You can’t really logically jump from the first to the second; the second is only a possibility, not a necessary conclusion.

Unfortunately, I haven’t had time to keep current, so perhaps pookie can answer that one.

nephorm,

im now thoroughly confused. i know next to nothing about epistemology, but i have a few thoughts…

questioning, “how do we know what we know?” seems like asking, “how do we breathe what we breathe.” the mechanism of breathing could be broken down to the most minute detail (which, i believe, is impossible, but let’s imagine it is possible), yet we would still not understand how we breathe what we breathe because only the act of breathing can know itself intimately.

i still think “i think therefore i exist, i exist therefore i am existence, existence thinks therefore existence is i” works. although, ive gotten all my philosophy from the East. we believe all things to be one and the same, yet manifesting differently. similar to how a freckle is the same yet different than an orgasm (both are you manifested differently).

for some reason, i imagine ive missed the point entirely…

anybody here read Alan Watts?

wufwugy,
Think of it this way. Sasquatch contends that the universe might be infinite. Pookie contends that it is finite. This is all for the sake of example, btw, not accurate representations of their stances. Pookie says “The universe has boundary.” Sasquatch, our skeptic, says “How do you know?” Pookie says, “If the universe were infinite, the night sky would be blinding with the light from all of the stars.” Sasquatch replies “How do you know there isn’t dark matter, which absorbs the light, or that stars are evenly distributed through infinity? Further, how do you know that there is an edge to the universe? Have you ever been there, or seen it? If so, how can you trust your perceptions?”

The radical skeptic casts everything into doubt, including our senses. If we cannot trust our senses to reliably report our world, or if we may be dreaming and unaware of it, then our knowledge of the world is not entirely rational.

Now, as Leo Strauss put it, modern science has changed many beliefs from being simply untrue into untestable hypotheses. That is, science is pluaralistic, and attempts to be value-free. This is only an attempt, however, because science ceases to understand, for example, cultures as they understand themselves; rather it sees them through the lens of a separate culture. As such, they are NOT value-free. Anyway, this is drifting from the main point.

The important thing is that from a physical perspective, we can’t ever be “certain” of anything to the same extent as we are certain we exist. I would argue that ethics are a different realm, and that we CAN know some things about ethics that extend purely from the fact that we do exist, but that’s outside of the scope of this thread.

But all this being said, we are stuck with the world as it is presented to us, and so must make do with the scientific evidence as it becomes available. As pookie said earlier, scientists are forced to work with probabilities. Some hypotheses are unlikely to such an extent that their probability is near zero. The probability, for example, that I will transform into a penguin while typing this, is near zero. Logically, if all we have is physical evidence, and a theory is not supported by that evidence in any way, then that theory is either superfluous or wrong.

If there is thinking going on, the truism that the thinking springs from a ‘someone-ness’ is not a truism, but a function of our language which always assigns a doer for every action. This was my point.

I’ll try to explain in further detail my argument, however erroneous it may be. Descartes knew that there was some thinking going on, but to say that the thinking is being produced by something, he must work on the presupposition that thinking must always emanate from a source. To assign the thinking to himself, he must further postulate that he is the source of the thinking. For this reason I don’t think his statement stands very well in the face of radical skepticism. It requires two assumptions that can very easily be questioned.

Also, I don’t think my argument attributed to Nietzsche was inaccurate since, being the plagiarist I am, I took it directly from The Will To Power. I wasn’t claiming Nietzsche was a nihilist, if that’s what you were thinking. He simply thought that widespread nihilism would be the result once everyone found out the values they previously held sacred were baseless.

Right after I wrote that I realized I had disgusting dried ketchup all around my mouth from eating a breakfast burrito this morning, good thing we’re not arguing in person, that would have been quite a blow to my integrity…

[quote]Orbitalboner wrote:
Right after I wrote that I realized I had disgusting dried ketchup all around my mouth from eating a breakfast burrito this morning, good thing we’re not arguing in person, that would have been quite a blow to my integrity…[/quote]

Hahah, you’d fit in with some of the professors I’ve had.

Btw, I also wanted to point out that both Latin and French have passive voice, so there’s no reason he couldn’t have said “Thoughts are thought, and therefore there is existence” or something similar.

I think, therefore I am.

Interesting how this can be called into doubt, but at the same time, you have to allow that it doesn’t really specify the thing doing the thinking.

Whatever is thinking, exists. I think the assignment being dicussed above is erroneous and not important to the concept being expressed.

It doesn’t matter what the “I” represents… and there is no attempt to qualify it that I’m aware of. The “I” can be everything, me, you, something, something else, a rock, or whatnot.

There is something that thinks, therefore something exists.

Whether or not there is more than one something and whatever my relationship is to it or them, I have no idea. Of course, each of us believes that we are an entity that thinks and thus exist with some type of independence. Or at least that is what I believe others to believe…

[quote]vroom wrote:
Whether or not there is more than one something and whatever my relationship is to it or them, I have no idea. Of course, each of us believes that we are an entity that thinks and thus exist with some type of independence. Or at least that is what I believe others to believe…[/quote]

EXACTLY vroom. We ‘believe’ that we are entities that think. This is what I was getting at when I was plagiarizing Nietzsche. Descartes’ declaration is merely a very strong belief as opposed to a factual statement. Good work vroom, brilliant!

nephorm

You seem to like to paint me as both a Sophist arguer(?) and radical skeptic. While I take neither as completely derogatory from you, I don’t quite see how because I don’t 100% agree with the common consensous, that I am ‘somewhere out there in left field.’

This would then imply that people of faith, or quite simply any contrarion is less believable or shrugged off as non-sensical.

I know scientists like to explain everything and it appears what you suggest is that if there is a good probability that it is so, then it is so. I’ll agree that a high probability oes exist, but why am I scrutinized so for saying ‘it might not be so.’

This would appear a bit pedantic in thought and stance. I don’t want to turn this completelt to faith, though I believe that the concept runs through the thread, but accepting things as they are because that’s all we can prove at this time is, I believe, a bit closed minded.

On a side note–I sound much smarter when you explain my position as opposed to my own words

[quote]Orbitalboner wrote:
EXACTLY vroom. We ‘believe’ that we are entities that think. This is what I was getting at when I was plagiarizing Nietzsche. Descartes’ declaration is merely a very strong belief as opposed to a factual statement. Good work vroom, brilliant!
[/quote]

Isn’t that what I said?