For Ye Christian Ones...

For a good and bloody hard read (had to re read the first few chapters), Daniel Dennets “darwins dangerous idea”.

the best single document about evolution. It is pretty tough going though, and matt ridleys “origins of virtue”. A great book and a lot easier to read.

The mountains of evidene that point toward evolution are far an away greater than what we are generally accustomed to. Wheter or not JC existed, if you take away basic details like creationism then what are you left with. A gap god, then what do you have. An ever retreating idealology in the face of increasing knowledge.

This a good texts, if you are into that sort of thing. get them at amazon.

[quote]FIRESNATCH wrote:
Jesus was not a popular person. He had few followers and hung out with the bottom of society. So how did christianity become a mass movement? The answer is the resurection. They saw something they never saw befor. A miracle.[/quote]

I watched that dude BP 1005 lb. That has never been seen before…soes that make it a miracle?

[quote]miniross wrote:
FIRESNATCH wrote:
Jesus was not a popular person. He had few followers and hung out with the bottom of society. So how did christianity become a mass movement? The answer is the resurection. They saw something they never saw befor. A miracle.

I watched that dude BP 1005 lb. That has never been seen before…soes that make it a miracle?

[/quote]

Slowly moving up weight in a lift to new levels hardly relates to that of being dead for three days, comming back to life and then walking the earth for hundreds to see before rising up in the clouds and ascending to heaven.

Just a couple different sources that support the life of Christ besides the Bible.

Secular history supports the Bible. For example, in The Antiquities of the Jews, book 18, chapter 3, paragraph 3 the famous historian Flavius Josephus writes:

?Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works?a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.?

In 115 AD, P. Cornelius Tacitus wrote the following passage that refers to Jesus (called ?Christus,? which means ?The Messiah?) in book 15, chapter 44 of The Annals:

?Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.?

That’s why they call it faith, my friend

[quote]XCelticX wrote:
First off, don’t take this as a guy trying to piss off and flame you because you’re Christian, I’m looking for a good discussion…

There is not a single shred of anthropological or scientific evidence supporting many of the stories and beliefs associated with Christianity:

Noah’s Ark - Do you honestly believe that the oceans of the world suddenly increased in size astronomically, engulfing all land on Earth? Furthermore, do you believe that 2 of EVERY species on Earth were taken onto one ship, then were later released, once the waters suddenly disappeared? That would be a boat filled with millions of animals, big and small, very impossible…

Why is it that the accounts of miracles so often quoted and glamorized in Churches today only exist in the Bible? It seems like SOMEONE would’ve noticed those amazing things that supposedly were occuring, and that someone would have wrote about it. Yet still, the only ones who attested to that being true were the ones who wrote in the Bible.

Creation - So God was around forever, but sometime during this ‘forever’ he suddenly decided, “Hey, I’m gonna make some light.” Then, “Hey, It’d be cool if there was a rock in space called Earth. I better throw in water and land to. Maybe some plants and animals and humans to entertain me further…” etc…

Some Christians now believe in creationism through evolution, that is, God created the world as we know it through the process that wasn’t theorized until 150 years ago by an athiest. I kind of see this as rationalizing “well, evolutionary theory is gaining more evidence and proof every year, why don’t we just mix it with what we believe?”

Others deny it completely. Some even believe that the Earth, and every form of life living on it, were created only 10,000 or so years ago. The very rocks we walk on attest to the Earth being BILLIONS of years old. In addition to that, the fossilized remains of millions of species that lived in the past litter the Earth. Most of these fossils are carbon-dated to millions of years ago, pretty far reaching compared to 10,000. Also, even if God created the world through this long evolutionary method, who were Adam and Eve? Some speculate those names to symbolize the 2 origional groups of humans. But there were no 2 origional groups of humans. From anthropological evidence, it appears that primates emerged from the rest of the mammals roughly 50 million years ago or so(these dates may be a bit off from what’s agreed on by most of the experts in the area). These creatures were very smart compared to the other organisms on the Earth at the time. As they continues to evolve, some became more and more intelligent. The line that formed the great apes broke away from the other primates 25-30 million years ago. Think of the main line of the great apes as the chimpanzee line. From 25-30 million years ago to now, the great ape species broke away from the chimp line one by one. First, orangutans did, then gorillas, then humans, then bonobos, and modern chimps are the evolutionary result of that origional line(this is the accepted figure among most expert anthropologists). We broke from the chimp like about 5 million years ago. It was a slow progression to our modern state, and it can be followed by fossils. The human like that broke off started, of course, as the same apes chimps were 5 million years ago. They slowly moved from quadrupedalism to bipedalism(walking on 2 legs), and the size of the brain slowly increased. Those physiological changes became more and more like us, till we reach the point we’re at today. How does the Bible explain those fossils? Why doesn’t the Bible have similar critical evidence to support its claims/stories/beliefs?


It appears to me that the only ‘evidence’ Christians can throw out to support their beliefs is their faith, which is, of course, not evidence.

If you think it is evidence, what about the hundreds of other religions around the world? Every culture and social group created some form of religion, what makes yours so special? They are all founded on and carried on by faith. If faith is such a powerful true force, then all of them are founded on truth. If your religion is true because of your faith, theirs is true because of theirs. Oh, maybe its because Christians’ faith are worth more than, say, Muslims’ faith.

Your thoughts/replies?[/quote]

Srry for this lon post, but I don’t think that many will click the link and go read so I am just gonna put it all here. This all comes from Science and the Bible

"The Bible is not a science book, yet it is scientifically accurate. We are not aware of any scientific evidence that contradicts the Bible. We have listed statements on this page that are consistent with known scientific facts. Many of them were listed in the Bible hundreds or even thousands of years before being recorded elsewhere. Many concepts and notes on this page are adapted from ideas and statements that appear in The DEFENDER?S Study Bible.[1]

Statements Consistent With Paleontology
Dinosaurs are referred to in several Bible books. The book of Job describes two dinosaurs. One is described in chapter 40 starting at verse 15, and the other in chapter 41 starting at verse 1. We think you will agree that 1? chapters about dinosaurs is a lot?since most people do not even realize that they are mentioned in the Bible. (Actually reading the Bible would help, though. ) Click this sentence to see our Dinosaurs page if you would like more information in this subject area.
Statements Consistent With Astronomy
The Bible frequently refers to the great number of stars in the heavens. Here are two examples.

Genesis 22:17
Blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies.

Jeremiah 33:22
?As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.?
Even today, scientists admit that they do not know how many stars there are. Only about 3,000 can be seen with the naked eye. We have seen estimates of 1021 stars?which is a lot of stars.[2] (The number of grains of sand on the earth?s seashores is estimated to be 1025. As scientists discover more stars, wouldn?t it be interesting to discover that these two numbers match?)

The Bible also says that each star is unique.

1 Corinthians 15:41
There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
All stars look alike to the naked eye.* Even when seen through a telescope, they seem to be just points of light. However, analysis of their light spectra reveals that each is unique and different from all others.[1] (*Note: We understand that people can perceive some slight difference in color and apparent brightness when looking at stars with the naked eye, but we would not expect a person living in the first century A.D. to claim they differ from one another.)

The Bible describes the precision of movement in the universe.

Jeremiah 31:35,36
Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The LORD of hosts is His name):
?If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.?

The Bible describes the suspension of the Earth in space.

Job 26:7
He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing.

Statements Consistent With Meteorology
The Bible describes the circulation of the atmosphere.

Ecclesiastes 1:6
The wind goes toward the south,
And turns around to the north;
The wind whirls about continually,
And comes again on its circuit.

The Bible includes some principles of fluid dynamics.

Job 28:25
To establish a weight for the wind,
And apportion the waters by measure.
The fact that air has weight was proven scientifically only about 300 years ago. The relative weights of air and water are needed for the efficient functioning of the world?s hydrologic cycle, which in turn sustains life on the earth.[1] (If you are a physics enthusiast, please ignore our omission of the terms mass, gravity, and density from this comment.)

Statements Consistent With Biology
The book of Leviticus (written prior to 1400 BC) describes the value of blood.

Leviticus 17:11
?For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.?
The blood carries water and nourishment to every cell, maintains the body?s temperature, and removes the waste material of the body?s cells. The blood also carries oxygen from the lungs throughout the body. In 1616, William Harvey discovered that blood circulation is the key factor in physical life?confirming what the Bible revealed 3,000 years earlier.[1]

The Bible describes biogenesis (the development of living organisms from other living organisms) and the stability of each kind of living organism.

Genesis 1:11,12
Then God said, ?Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth?; and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:21
So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:25
And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
The phrase ?according to its kind? occurs repeatedly, stressing the reproductive integrity of each kind of animal and plant. Today we know this occurs because all of these reproductive systems are programmed by their genetic codes.[1]

The Bible describes the chemical nature of flesh.

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.

It is a proven fact that a person?s mental and spiritual health is strongly correlated with physical health.[1] The Bible revealed this to us with these statements (and others) written by King Solomon about 950 BC.

Proverbs 12:4
An excellent wife is the crown of her husband,
But she who causes shame is like rottenness in his bones.

Proverbs 14:30
A sound heart is life to the body,
But envy is rottenness to the bones.

Proverbs 15:30
The light of the eyes rejoices the heart,
And a good report makes the bones healthy.

Proverbs 16:24
Pleasant words are like a honeycomb,
Sweetness to the soul and health to the bones.

Proverbs 17:22
A merry heart does good, like medicine,
But a broken spirit dries the bones.
Statements Consistent With Anthropology
We have cave paintings and other evidence that people inhabited caves. The Bible also describes cave men.

Job 30:5,6
They were driven out from among men,
They shouted at them as at a thief.
They had to live in the clefts of the valleys,
In caves of the earth and the rocks.
Note that these were not ape-men, but descendants of those who scattered from Babel. They were driven from the community by those tribes who competed successfully for the more desirable regions of the earth. Then for some reason they deteriorated mentally, physically, and spiritually.[1] (Go into a bad part of your town and you will see this concept in action today.)

Statements Consistent With Hydrology
The bible includes reasonably complete descriptions of the hydrologic cycle.[3]

Psalm 135:7
He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth;
He makes lightning for the rain;
He brings the wind out of His treasuries.

Jeremiah 10:13
When He utters His voice,
There is a multitude of waters in the heavens:
?And He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth.
He makes lightning for the rain,
He brings the wind out of His treasuries.?
In these verses you can see several phases of the hydrologic cycle?the worldwide processes of evaporation, translation aloft by atmospheric circulation, condensation with electrical discharges, and precipitation.[1]

Job 36:27-29
For He draws up drops of water,
Which distill as rain from the mist,
Which the clouds drop down
And pour abundantly on man.
Indeed, can anyone understand the spreading of clouds,
The thunder from His canopy?
This simple verse has remarkable scientific insight. The drops of water which eventually pour down as rain first become vapor and then condense to tiny liquid water droplets in the clouds. These finally coalesce into drops large enough to overcome the updrafts that suspend them in the air.[1]

The Bible describes the recirculation of water.

Ecclesiastes 1:7
All the rivers run into the sea,
Yet the sea is not full;
To the place from which the rivers come,
There they return again.

Isaiah 55:10
For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,
And do not return there,
But water the earth,
And make it bring forth and bud,
That it may give seed to the sower
And bread to the eater,

The Bible refers to the surprising amount of water that can be held as condensation in clouds.

Job 26:8
He binds up the water in His thick clouds,
Yet the clouds are not broken under it.

Job 37:11
Also with moisture He saturates the thick clouds;
He scatters His bright clouds.

Hydrothermal vents[4] are described in two books of the Bible written before 1400BC?more than 3,000 years before their discovery by science.

Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah?s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Job 38:16
Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?
We discuss the ?fountains of the great deep? further in our Creation Versus Evolution page.

Statements Consistent With Geology
The Bible describes the Earth?s crust (along with a comment on astronomy).

Jeremiah 31:37
Thus says the LORD:
?If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the LORD.?
Although some scientists claim that they have now measured the size of the universe, it is interesting to note that every human attempt to drill through the earth?s crust to the plastic mantle beneath has, thus far, ended in failure.[1]

The Bible described the shape of the earth centuries before people thought that the earth was spherical.

Isaiah 40:22
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
The word translated ?circle? here is the Hebrew word chuwg which is also translated ?circuit,? or ?compass? (depending on the context). That is, it indicates something spherical, rounded, or arched?not something that is flat or square.

The book of Isaiah was written sometime between 740 and 680 BC. This is at least 300 years before Aristotle suggested that the earth might be a sphere in this book On the Heavens.

This brings up an important historical note related to this topic. Many people are aware of the conflict between Galileo and the Roman Catholic Pope, Paul V. After publishing A Dialogue on the Two Principal Systems of the World, Galileo was summoned to Rome, where he was forced to renounce his findings. (At that time, ?theologians? of the Roman Catholic Church maintained that the Earth was the center of the universe, and to assert otherwise was deemed heretical.)

We could not find any place in the Bible that claims that the Earth is flat, or that it is the center of the universe. History shows that this conflict, which took place at the time of the Inquisition, was part of a power struggle. As a result, scientific and biblical knowledge became casualties?an effect we still feel to this day.

Statements Consistent With Physics
The Bible suggests the presence of nuclear processes like those we associate with nuclear weaponry. This is certainly not something that could have been explained in 67 AD using known scientific principles (when Peter wrote the following verse).

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

The television is a practical (if not always worthwhile ) device that uses electromagnetic waves (which transmit its video signal). The Bible contains passages that describe something like television?something that allows everyone on earth see a single event. (Note: such passages typically refer to the end of time. It may not be long before all of us learn for sure whether the Bible is true or not.)

Matthew 24:30
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 11:9-11
Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. "

Hope that gives you some proof.

I have two idiotic questions to add to this gay discussion. First, with regards to Noah’s ark, many of the animals onboard were carnivores. Did Noah have to bring extra animals onboard to keep the carnivores alive? Or were the lions, tigers, bears, etc. forced to eat fish? And why were marine animals allowed to continue living while land animals were wiped out? Boring… Second, why do Christians celebrate on the first day of the week (Sunday) and not on the seventh day of the week (Saturday). Sunday was the Roman day of solar worship. Yahweh rested on Saturday, but on Sunday he was hard at work. GAY!

?Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.?
[/quote]
Now that’s entertainment!

[quote]Moon Knight wrote:
There have been numerous persons of late, both biologicly, and mathematicly utilizing science to at the least support intelligent design. If nothing else, take the example of the black hole which science says began our universe. Somehow the black hole lead to the big bang, but, how did that happen? Science has found no way it could have logically done so, yet, I feel, an independent outside force(God), was responsible. Logical is it not? This does not neccesarily support the full biblical spectrum of beliefs, but there are strong arguements(that was just one example) for an intelligent force of some kind beginning things, and planning things.

Why has there been sin in the world since the dawn of time? Why did God perhaps create sin? I think it highly possible that the God spoken of in the Old Testament, who created things, is a lesser deity, one whom is imperfect. The true supreme being sent Jesus to free us all from the first. That is how I see it.[/quote]

Intelligent Design is nothing more than saying God created evolution. Anyone who believes in it should defend evolution (not attacking you moon knight, but just felt like saying it). The big bang theory does not say the universe was a black hole, but there was a singularity, although I see why it might be confusing. Anyway, there is something called string theory, particularly M theory, which has an explanation for the “big bang” using the multiverse.

You’re view on different gods is intriguing. Personally, I feel it’s inconsistent, but I’ve never heard it before. God sounds more like a powerful man than a omnipotent deity.

It is far easier for me to believe in the creation than it is that there was big explosion from matter that came out of nowhere all of the sudden and now I’m sitting here typing on a computer.

Science is also an interpretation of “evidence”. Tune into the news and science is being disputed everyday. We’ve not put a man past the planet mars. Yet some endeavor to claim to know the wondrous mind of God its laughable that a human being who is on this planet for 70 years and can’t work a vcr can claim with all certainty anything all. Kind of the height of arrogance.

Along the them of being open minded I would suggest that you read, “The Case for Christ”. Lee Strobel I believe is the author. I could be wrong on that.

Eyes and ears deceive. Your faith is in science. Mine is in God. Faith is ultimately all any of us have. Faith that what you are being told by men is true is your faith. Please look at the other side with as much vigor and open mindedness.

Peace.

[quote]miniross wrote:
For a good and bloody hard read (had to re read the first few chapters), Daniel Dennets “darwins dangerous idea”.

the best single document about evolution. It is pretty tough going though, and matt ridleys “origins of virtue”. A great book and a lot easier to read.

The mountains of evidene that point toward evolution are far an away greater than what we are generally accustomed to. Wheter or not JC existed, if you take away basic details like creationism then what are you left with. A gap god, then what do you have. An ever retreating idealology in the face of increasing knowledge.

This a good texts, if you are into that sort of thing. get them at amazon.

[/quote]

I just took a class with dennett for a new book he is writing, “Religion as a Natural Phenomenon”. Comes out in the fall. I’m not sure how well the book will turn out compared to learning from him, as obviously he can provide feedback while the book cannot, but it should be a great read.

[quote]Moon Knight wrote:
Something you fail to take heed of is the sense of time in Genesis. When discussing creation, the word “day” shows up in the English translation, however, it does not literally mean a span of time equivalent to one of our days today. More accurately, the word being translated would mean “time period” or “era”. If one looks a bit closer at Chapter 1, one will note that the description is a very abbreviated version of the blackhole/evolution theory put forth by science, proceeding from plants, to fish, to birds, to mammals, to man.

There have been numerous persons of late, both biologicly, and mathematicly utilizing science to at the least support intelligent design. If nothing else, take the example of the black hole which science says began our universe. Somehow the black hole lead to the big bang, but, how did that happen? Science has found no way it could have logically done so, yet, I feel, an independent outside force(God), was responsible. Logical is it not? This does not neccesarily support the full biblical spectrum of beliefs, but there are strong arguements(that was just one example) for an intelligent force of some kind beginning things, and planning things.

Why has there been sin in the world since the dawn of time? Why did God perhaps create sin? I think it highly possible that the God spoken of in the Old Testament, who created things, is a lesser deity, one whom is imperfect. The true supreme being sent Jesus to free us all from the first. That is how I see it.[/quote]

As far as the big bang goes, I think ANY theory that tries to go back that far in time is obviously wasted time and thought. We will NEVER know how the universe as we know it came into being. One cannot very accurately predict what was happening a billion years ago, much less at the beginning of our current universe.

I think the same applies to black holes and plenty of other random theories scientists have come up with. They are interesting ideas, but there is just so little to go on that might lead you to such conclusions. I think theories like those are more of a work of creativity than science.

People need to stop trying to explain the things we simply CANNOT explain. The world would be a much more simple and enjoyable place IMO if people stopped trying to predict what there’s no evidence for and accepted the fact that as of now we simple do not know the answers to those questions.

[quote]NycMan wrote:
Why are you directing your post only to Christians?
Most of the things you talk about, such as Creation, and Noah’s Ark, are talked about in the Old Testament. So this thread should’ve been addressed to Jews and Christians.[/quote]

Well, I really should’ve addressed it to anyone who believes in creationism, as many of the arguments presented apply to them to. I said Christians because that is a religion I’m more knowledgeable of, but Jews believe in the old testament to of course.

[quote]cap’nsalty wrote:
This conversation is so old and pointless…[/quote]

Then don’t post in my damn thread! Jesus!

[quote]furious george wrote:
XCelticX:
There is not a single shred of anthropological or scientific evidence supporting many of the stories and beliefs associated with Christianity

With this kind of attitude, you will never find any evidence, not because its not there, but because your presupositions won’t let you. Its like the guy who goes into the gym and thinks he’ll never get big, and never does.

what about the hundreds of other religions around the world? Every culture and social group created some form of religion, what makes yours(Christianity) so special?

you partially answered your own question when you typed earlier that

…the accounts of miracles so often quoted and glamorized in Churches today only exist in the Bible?
[/quote]

Believe me, I’ve had a different attitude in the past. I went from begging ‘God’ everyday to give me some kind of assurance of his existence(as well as looking for evidence that what Christianity is founded on is true) to the attitude I have now towards that subject. Thing is, I didn’t find anything that could convince me even the slightest bit to continue striving to do as Christianity teached. I found myself scorning my everyday actions, generally feeling horrible about myself, because I kept sinning. It couldn’t be stopped, and that’s what makes religion ridiculous as far as I’m concerned. Its not bad to have moral ideals and standards set for yourself, but its another thing to try to fulfill the moral standards set forth by many religions. Trying to do that is trying to deny your very own natural behavior, human behavior, and I don’t see how denying that behavior got anyone anywhere, while ignoring those moral codes/laws makes it ALOT easier and simpler to get by with daily life while not feeling bad about yourself.

If it is my attitude preventing me from seeing the evidence, present the evidence to me, and I’ll take a look at it openmindedly.

[quote]battlelust wrote:
?Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.?

Now that’s entertainment![/quote]

Genocide is entertainment? Thanks for showing your true colors. Those of you who like to refer to Christians and / or conservatives as “Nazis” would do well to read this genius’s post!

[quote]FIRESNATCH wrote:
Jesus was not a popular person. He had few followers and hung out with the bottom of society. So how did christianity become a mass movement? The answer is the resurection. They saw something they never saw befor. A miracle.[/quote]

Who saw it? Did any Christian you know see it? Are there ANY historical accounts besides the Bible that even mention such an occurance? I don’t know about you, but if I saw or heard of a guy coming back from the dead and floating off into ‘heaven’, I sure as hell would write it down, or tell it to people who would write it down.

For me it takes more faith to beleive some random explosion set off events that led to the perfectly orchstrated internal environments that exist in living creatures and the also in the bigger external picture that is nature. Think about it…your body has so many checks and balances to keep it humming along. As performance and physique athletes we seek to figure out to manipulate these checks and balnces to our favor. If after looking at how perfectly all of these hormones and other factors work together the easiest explenation that I can come up with is that someone designed it that way.

Like I said, seems to take less faith to look at it that way than to think some random cosmic big-bang just happened to result in it. Also, there are historical documents that mention Jesus besides the Bible. Jews and Muslims both acknowledge that he existed. Muslims even consider him to be a great prophet from their perspective. Seems kind of odd that 3 of the 4 major religions (Budhist’s being the other) recognize him to some degree. Seems to suggest that he really did exist. Anyways, just my opinion.

[quote]Billberg wrote:
Statements Consistent With Paleontology
Dinosaurs are referred to in several Bible books. The book of Job describes two dinosaurs. One is described in chapter 40 starting at verse 15, and the other in chapter 41 starting at verse 1. We think you will agree that 1? chapters about dinosaurs is a lot?since most people do not even realize that they are mentioned in the Bible. (Actually reading the Bible would help, though. ) Click this sentence to see our Dinosaurs page if you would like more information in this subject area.
[/quote]

If I’m correct, those passages suggest that the Behemoth & Leviathon or other dinosaurs the Bible supposedly refers to were living while humans were alive. That, as we all know, is impossible.

Maybe that’s a typo, but there are way way WAY more grains of sand than 1,025, and as for stars, billions.

All of these passages reveal that their authors simply observed basic physical occurences that numerous other people have been observing for centuries. There is nothing that suggests an otherwordly knowledge, or even a knowledge of these occurences close to what we have today. Surely if God told these people what those physical/meteorological/etc. happenings were, he would have told them much more in depth, explaining at least some of the complex knowledge and science that we have concerning those areas.

The blood carries water and nourishment to every cell, maintains the body?s temperature, and removes the waste material of the body?s cells. The blood also carries oxygen from the lungs throughout the body. In 1616, William Harvey discovered that blood circulation is the key factor in physical life?confirming what the Bible revealed 3,000 years earlier

Again, my point is that ^ that knowledge was NOT in the Bible passage. The scripture simply said for ‘the life of the flesh is in the blood’, which everyone knows, even primitive societies. You can’t live if you loose too much blood, that is basic knowledge.

[quote]
The Bible describes biogenesis (the development of living organisms from other living organisms) and the stability of each kind of living organism.

Genesis 1:11,12
Then God said, ?Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth?; and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:21
So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:25
And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
The phrase ?according to its kind? occurs repeatedly, stressing the reproductive integrity of each kind of animal and plant. Today we know this occurs because all of these reproductive systems are programmed by their genetic codes.[1]

The Bible describes the chemical nature of flesh.

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.

It is a proven fact that a person?s mental and spiritual health is strongly correlated with physical health.[1] The Bible revealed this to us with these statements (and others) written by King Solomon about 950 BC.

Proverbs 12:4
An excellent wife is the crown of her husband,
But she who causes shame is like rottenness in his bones.

Proverbs 14:30
A sound heart is life to the body,
But envy is rottenness to the bones.

Proverbs 15:30
The light of the eyes rejoices the heart,
And a good report makes the bones healthy.

Proverbs 16:24
Pleasant words are like a honeycomb,
Sweetness to the soul and health to the bones.

Proverbs 17:22
A merry heart does good, like medicine,
But a broken spirit dries the bones.
Statements Consistent With Anthropology
We have cave paintings and other evidence that people inhabited caves. The Bible also describes cave men.

Job 30:5,6
They were driven out from among men,
They shouted at them as at a thief.
They had to live in the clefts of the valleys,
In caves of the earth and the rocks.
Note that these were not ape-men, but descendants of those who scattered from Babel. They were driven from the community by those tribes who competed successfully for the more desirable regions of the earth. Then for some reason they deteriorated mentally, physically, and spiritually.[1] (Go into a bad part of your town and you will see this concept in action today.)

Statements Consistent With Hydrology
The bible includes reasonably complete descriptions of the hydrologic cycle.[3]

Psalm 135:7
He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth;
He makes lightning for the rain;
He brings the wind out of His treasuries.

Jeremiah 10:13
When He utters His voice,
There is a multitude of waters in the heavens:
?And He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth.
He makes lightning for the rain,
He brings the wind out of His treasuries.?
In these verses you can see several phases of the hydrologic cycle?the worldwide processes of evaporation, translation aloft by atmospheric circulation, condensation with electrical discharges, and precipitation.[1]

Job 36:27-29
For He draws up drops of water,
Which distill as rain from the mist,
Which the clouds drop down
And pour abundantly on man.
Indeed, can anyone understand the spreading of clouds,
The thunder from His canopy?
This simple verse has remarkable scientific insight. The drops of water which eventually pour down as rain first become vapor and then condense to tiny liquid water droplets in the clouds. These finally coalesce into drops large enough to overcome the updrafts that suspend them in the air.[1]

The Bible describes the recirculation of water.

Ecclesiastes 1:7
All the rivers run into the sea,
Yet the sea is not full;
To the place from which the rivers come,
There they return again.

Isaiah 55:10
For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,
And do not return there,
But water the earth,
And make it bring forth and bud,
That it may give seed to the sower
And bread to the eater,

The Bible refers to the surprising amount of water that can be held as condensation in clouds.

Job 26:8
He binds up the water in His thick clouds,
Yet the clouds are not broken under it.

Job 37:11
Also with moisture He saturates the thick clouds;
He scatters His bright clouds.

Hydrothermal vents[4] are described in two books of the Bible written before 1400BC?more than 3,000 years before their discovery by science.

Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah?s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Job 38:16
Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?
We discuss the ?fountains of the great deep? further in our Creation Versus Evolution page.

Statements Consistent With Geology
The Bible describes the Earth?s crust (along with a comment on astronomy).

Jeremiah 31:37
Thus says the LORD:
?If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the LORD.?
Although some scientists claim that they have now measured the size of the universe, it is interesting to note that every human attempt to drill through the earth?s crust to the plastic mantle beneath has, thus far, ended in failure.[1]

The Bible described the shape of the earth centuries before people thought that the earth was spherical.

Isaiah 40:22
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
The word translated ?circle? here is the Hebrew word chuwg which is also translated ?circuit,? or ?compass? (depending on the context). That is, it indicates something spherical, rounded, or arched?not something that is flat or square.

The book of Isaiah was written sometime between 740 and 680 BC. This is at least 300 years before Aristotle suggested that the earth might be a sphere in this book On the Heavens.

This brings up an important historical note related to this topic. Many people are aware of the conflict between Galileo and the Roman Catholic Pope, Paul V. After publishing A Dialogue on the Two Principal Systems of the World, Galileo was summoned to Rome, where he was forced to renounce his findings. (At that time, ?theologians? of the Roman Catholic Church maintained that the Earth was the center of the universe, and to assert otherwise was deemed heretical.)

We could not find any place in the Bible that claims that the Earth is flat, or that it is the center of the universe. History shows that this conflict, which took place at the time of the Inquisition, was part of a power struggle. As a result, scientific and biblical knowledge became casualties?an effect we still feel to this day.

Statements Consistent With Physics
The Bible suggests the presence of nuclear processes like those we associate with nuclear weaponry. This is certainly not something that could have been explained in 67 AD using known scientific principles (when Peter wrote the following verse).

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

The television is a practical (if not always worthwhile ) device that uses electromagnetic waves (which transmit its video signal). The Bible contains passages that describe something like television?something that allows everyone on earth see a single event. (Note: such passages typically refer to the end of time. It may not be long before all of us learn for sure whether the Bible is true or not.)

Matthew 24:30
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 11:9-11
Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. "

Hope that gives you some proof.[/quote]

Well, the same argument I’ve given holds true for all of those. The scriptures only state the most basic and obvious facts about the subjects concerned. They show NO knowledge beyond what many primitive people’s could tell you about the same things.

[quote]btm62 wrote:
It is far easier for me to believe in the creation than it is that there was big explosion from matter that came out of nowhere all of the sudden and now I’m sitting here typing on a computer.

Science is also an interpretation of “evidence”. Tune into the news and science is being disputed everyday. We’ve not put a man past the planet mars. Yet some endeavor to claim to know the wondrous mind of God its laughable that a human being who is on this planet for 70 years and can’t work a vcr can claim with all certainty anything all. Kind of the height of arrogance.

Along the them of being open minded I would suggest that you read, “The Case for Christ”. Lee Strobel I believe is the author. I could be wrong on that.

Eyes and ears deceive. Your faith is in science. Mine is in God. Faith is ultimately all any of us have. Faith that what you are being told by men is true is your faith. Please look at the other side with as much vigor and open mindedness.

Peace.[/quote]

I don’t put my faith in science, I put it in the evidence science uses to explain its theories. That is what is concrete, and the evidence is the ONLY thing that is concrete. A theory is a theory, but theories are alot stronger when they have backup.