For the T-Nation Devout

[quote]lucasa wrote:

No offense to any of the trainers here, but look at the programs and ask the same question. Point to a research paper and they’ll say things like “Only 30 untrained males? The results are crap!” and then they’ll turn around and offer a program based on what they see gymnasts and their mechanic doing that they’ve tested on all 25-50 of their clients of mixed genders and training ages. Not that the program doesn’t work and work well, just where’s the theory? the method? the test? [/quote]

No offense taken at all. This thread is actually good.

The point I was trying to make is that training does not take place in a vacuum; I imagine virtually every person on this board cannot spend 2-3 hours/day training without having to make significant sacrifices to other aspects of life;

The question you have to ask is 2-3hrs day really worth it? Is it so much better than the alternatives? At some point the law of diminishing returns kicks in.

Unfortunately (unlike Chemistry) you can’t “nail it down”. As the body changes (added muscle / less or more fat / different diet / AGE!)so does the training stimulus that suits it best, or better, this is why almost anyone who has trained for a few years doesn’t train like they used to, and if they try to they don’t stick to what they used to do as it doesn’t work like it did!

Dax

[quote]lucasa wrote:
TOTrev wrote:
It’s simple…

If that’s true, then why are there literally hundreds of programs on this site alone?

Why does Poliquin say things like ‘You should really read about 5 hrs. a week for 5 YEARS before you can consider yourself knowledgeable on a subject.’?

Why hasn’t everyone in every gym and musclemag figured it out?[/quote]

Like he said elsewhere in his post everything works for a while or works once.

It is important to change and reevaluate your routine, but don’t get caught in paralasis by analysis.

Pick up the weight, put it over your head and eat good food.

Vary your reps, sets and excercise selection.

The human body is incredibly complicated. I have no hope of understanding what is really happening so I try to keep it simple mentally and let my body do the hard work.

The Colorado Experiment was a load of shit.

Yeah, Viator gained that muscle back onto his frame, muscle he previously had. It’s been said that Viator was also using a hefty cocktail of steroids as well, and that every waking moment that he wasn’t training, Jones was shoving food down the guy’s throat.

I’m sure we could all be so fortunate to have similar results, but personally I don’t think I can afford to lose 50+ pounds of muscle on my body, and if it did work as Jones desrcibed it, everyone woule be doing this.

If Weider’s gross overtraining programs produced amazing results on people without a nice rush of anabolics in their system, I’m sure that every gymrat in the country that sits there doing chest for 2 hours one day, and continues this scheme every day for a new body part, and then repeats every week, would be one big mofo. We just don’t see that. Granted some people may have the ability to grow to a certain extent on programs like this, but that’s just because they happen to have exceptional recovery capacity and or genetics (look at CT’s newest article).

As such, we don’t see very big guys in either camp, for the most part.

Where do we find the most muscle? well, look at different types of athletes. Actually… maybe this is a bad assertion. Maybe world class athletes are only excelling because they were designed to.

Obviously though, one should not train like a marathon runner to become a sprinter (weider workouts). But at the same time, no successful sprinter does only one sprint once a week (HIT and HD programs).

So where’s the solution to finding the best program? It should obviously be somewhere in the middle.

I can’t beleive I had to type all that to state the obvious.

[quote]lucasa wrote:

Do you think the things you learn in PEDS 335 are the “be all end all” facts and rules that you would learn in a 300-level chemistry or physics class? [/quote]

Absolutely not. For example, in the last ten years, research on high intensity interval training blew previous conceptions of training for aerobic athletes out of the water. Whereas previously it was thought that anaerobic training wouldn’t have any benefit at all, or even detrimental effects, for an aerobic athlete, research on ultra-short sprint training with more “aerobic” work:rest ratios has shown very beneficial.

In light of this new evidence, the overall theory of training athletes shifted to accomodate. More research is done in the area and more knowledge acquired to expand our pool of knowledge to more accurately reflect the real world.

Charles Staley’s “Escalating Density Training” completely fits the current sports science paradigm. It takes training methods for distance training and applies them to strength training. For Lactate Threshold training, you give the athlete a battery of physiological performance tests, then send them out to run at the heart rate correlated with their lactate threshold for, depending on the level of the athlete, 20 minutes to an hour.

Then, as the athlete becomes fitter in factors related to lactate, they go faster and farther in that 20-60 minute time block while putting the same amount of relative stress on their physiology.

Now apply this to hypertrophy training and you get EDT. You give the athlete a 1RM test. Then assign a resistance correlated with gains in functional hypertrophy (~8-12RM). Now, assign them a time limit in which to do as much “distance” (reps) with that intensity (resistance) as possible. As the athlete becomes fitter in factors related to hypertrophy (more muscle fibres, better NM coordination, etc.) they can do more and more work at that given intensity for that given time.

A lot of these “new” training methods that “annihilate” everything we know are just an already-known training method applied to a new medium. In the case of EDT, track athlete training methods applied to resistance training.

On a side note, a lot of these “secret” methods (GVT, EDT, Russian Bear Training) are mostly useless for a non-strength or bodybuilding athlete as they cause so much fatigue that all the athlete’s other performance factors will detrain in the mean time. Either that or they can only be employed for a few months at the beginning of the training year so as not to interfere with more sport-specific training.

Now, I don’t think anyone has ever “annihilated” what sport science has previously known. It’s simply added another point of view and new knowledge to the paradigm.

If the new tool and new knowledge is more effective than previous methods, then it’s probably a good idea to use the new tool. However, all tools have their place and that should always be kept in mind.

First of all, sport science is a relatively young discipline that didn’t even begin to be taken seriously until the 1970s.

As for “Russian Training Secrets”, the Eastern Bloc and the West didn’t exactly share knowledge when it came to science of any kind until the Iron Curtain fell. Even now, the vast majority of journals on either side still haven’t been translated. The West concentrated mainly on metabolism and musculoskeletal structural changes while the Eastern Bloc concentrated mainly on neurological changes. Of course they will have a greater knowledge base when it comes to neurogenic strength and flexibility training. Their model focused on the nervous system while ours focused on metabolic and structural components of fitness.

The scientific method doesn’t discover big, undeniable facts, it uncovers a large amount of small facts and then tries to make it all make sense together with an overall theory. Sport science is no different.

All we know in sport science is that in studies we give a group of people such-and-such a training protocol, then we measure the body’s responses to that protocol. Then we know that, on the average, when you give a person that training protocol, generally those factors observed will improve.

Then there are other ways to knowledge such as mathematical evaluation of the results of previous studies on a certain topic. For example, I forget the name, but a sport scientist did a mathematical evaluation of all studied programs for increasing VO2max and found that the theoretical “ideal” VO2max training plan called for 30-40 minutes at VO2max, 3-4 times per week.

Of course this is impossible as the best athlete can maintain maybe 6-8 minutes at VO2max before collapsing.

However!

What it did do was expand the sport science paradigm to start thinking up ways to keep athletes at VO2max for longer with as little fatigue as possible. One method was to spend about 2 mins at VO2max with rest intervals of 2-3 mins at 40% VO2max (found to be the ideal intensity for active recovery). Then, with more research, a scientist down in the states found that 30 seconds at VO2 and 30 seconds active rest actually caused athletes to stay at VO2max oxygen consumption during their rest intervals, with the added bonus of preventing hydrogen ion accumulation by only “working” 30s at a time.

With this 30s:30s VO2max:40%VO2max protocol, it was found that elite athletes could complete up to 40 or more intervals, allowing them to complete 30-40 minutes at VO2max. This is something that came by and didn’t “annihilate” what we knew previously, it simply added a new training tool to the mix that we already possessed.

I’ll get off my soap box now as I have to catch a bus so I may go to class and further indoctrinate myself in the Canadian sports science machine. :wink:

I just came to this thread and have to say, great thread.

Two points that needs to be brought up are money and complexity.

First complexity. The human body has more complexity than we can imagine at this time. Hell the eye is more complex than all of NASA’s missions combined. This is why medical science still doesn’t really explain much. If it did, then disease would be easy to beat. Also, medical science is about understanding our biology, and as such will eventually map out enough that we will understand even hypertrophy.

That brings me to money. Yes medical science (which is the same science in the end as exercise science) has made great leaps and bounds in the past fifty years and exercise science hasn’t. Why? Research. There is more money in the medical field than exercise. And justifiably so, I mean what is more important, your bicep size or your brain tumor?

I believe that medical science is in its infancy and that when we really start to understand the human systems, we will unlock the secrets of exercise science as well. Hell, the fact that we even have a distinction between medical and exercise science shows us how little we know of each.

How long will it take? Who knows? Why even think about it. All we can do now is either research or keep trying new routines and observe the results and keep learning the hard way.

Thank god we have folks like JB, Waterbury, Thibaudeau, etc. who do both.

Rolo.

[quote]aikigreg wrote:
However, some of us are into more than just hypertrophy and want strength and other such goals. Overtraining to the point you’re referring to will not yield that strength. It will also eventually decrease the body’s ability to fight infection, etc.[/quote]

Did you read my post? I’m assuming Aikigreg that you are familiar with aikijutsu/do? Which is more important in that art? Size, strength, or skill?

[quote]
Bodybuilders can do it, but they’re on gear.[/quote]

Even the natural ones who don’t read T-mag (BTW, they are the vast majority)?

Can’t the exact same can be said for any routine postulated on this sight?

[quote]redsol1 wrote:
The problem with this outlook is when we look at the gains in the fields of science (you examples of biology ect.)you are talking about the discovery of common logic. Each field has it’s own set of rules and laws that governs all work in that field. It is impossible to apply that paradigm to a human being because each person is a universe into them selves, with their own unique rules and laws.[/quote]

Medicine? As well, unique rules and laws that almost always fall in a neat little guassian distribution (or other equally measurable, quantifiable, and predictable distribution).

See above.

[quote]Tizza wrote:
It’s about choice. Surely you would not want every trainer in the world to agree on one paradigm - what would be the fun in that? You certainly wouldn’t be able to make posts like this one :slight_smile:
[/quote]
People would still argue with ideas that have very very sound supporting scientific evidence.

(Please God, don’t let someone misinterpret this reply. Amen.)

[quote]
You take the bits that you like from each article - some you may not like at all - and walk away with what works for you.[/quote]

What your talking about is a crap shoot and just, IMO, relegates T-mag to the position of another card in the deck.

[quote]lostinthought wrote:
To answer that I would think NO. I can’t imagine anyone coming along and just blowing everyone out of the water. I can’t imagine people getting much bigger than they already are. Although I’m sure they thought that 50 years ago also. For training secrets, I don’t think they’re much more out there…My question would be, after all this time, all the different routines/styles, can there really be something out there that’s totally new? [/quote]

Say I’ve discovered the molecular pathway that causes muscles to grow. Would that overturn everything? Say someone shattered every weightlifting world record by 40 pounds (Paul Anderson)? Do you realize what you’re saying about nothing being totally new?

[quote]CU AeroStallion wrote:
The Colorado Experiment was a load of shit.

Yeah, Viator gained that muscle back onto his frame, muscle he previously had. It’s been said that Viator was also using a hefty cocktail of steroids as well, and that every waking moment that he wasn’t training, Jones was shoving food down the guy’s throat.[/quote]

You kinda missed the point of my invoking the “Colorado Experiment”. If When considering “recovery capacity”, one can either model and calculate the human body’s maximum capacity to build muscle or one can measure it. I would describe what Viator did as “maximum capacity”. Now, compared to 60# in a month or maximum capacity, does the stimulus and corresponding growth response that you experience even approach 10%? If you equate recovery capacity to healing capacity, do you really think Viator can recover 10 or 100 times faster than you?

Really? Because conjugated periodization works and half the people on this site (let alone your gym), don’t even use it.

[quote]
If Weider’s gross overtraining programs produced amazing results on people without a nice rush of anabolics in their system, I’m sure that every gymrat in the country that sits there doing chest for 2 hours one day, and continues this scheme every day for a new body part, and then repeats every week, would be one big mofo. We just don’t see that. Granted some people may have the ability to grow to a certain extent on programs like this, but that’s just because they happen to have exceptional recovery capacity and or genetics (look at CT’s newest article).[/quote]
I did read his newest article, the conclusion:

Genetics are, in my opinion, a copout. Except for a rare few, we all have the capacity to build a significant amount of muscle mass if we take the necessary steps. If you fail to gain at an acceptable rate, the problem is most likely not in your genes, but rather in the way you train, eat, or rest.

Great, 150 yrs. of exercising, 100 yrs. of “Weightlifting”, 60 yrs. of bodybuilding, 30 yrs. of exercise science, ~8 yrs. of MM2K (I think, and I’m not counting the years after TC left), 5yrs. of T-mag and the best answer is “somewhere in the middle”.

AlberaBeef,

Let me start off by saying nice post,

[quote]AlbertaBeef wrote:
Now, I don’t think anyone has ever “annihilated” what sport science has previously known. It’s simply added another point of view and new knowledge to the paradigm.
[/quote]
I’d disagree here, your example is exactly what I was describing, Before HIT, aerobics were preferred, HIT came along and training was 'never the same again. Then EDT comes along and renders a great deal of both camps useless. Maybe annihilate was too grandiose.

I agree and would concede, but NASA was around for 30 yrs. before someone set foot on the moon. DNA was discoevered and 40 yrs. later we have the human genome. ENIAC was built and 40 yrs. later the internet is born and ~10% of Americans own a computer. Let me ask this, what is/would be Sport Sciences’ lunar landing/human genome/PC? If it hasn’t already happened, why not?

Why did we think we were right and why did the Eastern Bloc think they were right? Why do we think we’re right now?

Newton and gravity? Euclid and geometry? Edison and electricity? Mendeleev and the periodic table? Pasteur and Microbiology? The method can and does discover large undeniable facts.

No training protocols ever fail? No protocol does more in less time? No protocols work only with males 20-25 with 5-10 yrs. of training experience?

[quote]Then there are other ways to knowledge such as mathematical evaluation of the results of previous studies on a certain topic. For example, I forget the name, but a sport scientist did a mathematical evaluation of all studied programs for increasing VO2max and found that the theoretical “ideal” VO2max training plan called for 30-40 minutes at VO2max, 3-4 times per week.

Of course this is impossible as the best athlete can maintain maybe 6-8 minutes at VO2max before collapsing.

However!

What it did do was expand the sport science paradigm to start thinking up ways to keep athletes at VO2max for longer with as little fatigue as possible. One method was to spend about 2 mins at VO2max with rest intervals of 2-3 mins at 40% VO2max (found to be the ideal intensity for active recovery). Then, with more research, a scientist down in the states found that 30 seconds at VO2 and 30 seconds active rest actually caused athletes to stay at VO2max oxygen consumption during their rest intervals, with the added bonus of preventing hydrogen ion accumulation by only “working” 30s at a time.

With this 30s:30s VO2max:40%VO2max protocol, it was found that elite athletes could complete up to 40 or more intervals, allowing them to complete 30-40 minutes at VO2max. This is something that came by and didn’t “annihilate” what we knew previously, it simply added a new training tool to the mix that we already possessed.[/quote]

Another card in the deck, but no games to play so we end up shuffling all day (or dealing until we’re out of cards).

See, you’ve already been brainwashed, you automatically assume I meant machine as a derogatory term. :slight_smile:

Mastermind,

Good post, just a couple of things:

[quote]Mastermind wrote:
First complexity. The human body has more complexity than we can imagine at this time. Hell the eye is more complex than all of NASA’s missions combined.[/quote]
True, but this is the bodybuilding think-tank. Not to limit us, but the eye, large portions of the brain, and good chunks of other biological systems are largely unrelated to muscle growth. As well, people have been getting big and lifting heavy shit for much longer than NASA’s been around. Ballistics (rocketry) extends “formally” back to the 1500s. When was Milo born?

[quote]This is why medical science still doesn’t really explain much.[/quote] This is the line of thought that started me on this thread. If medicine doesn’t explain much, sports science explains less. Why?

I posted in response to AlbertaBeef along these lines. In medicine, there was a break even or watershed point (some say 40s, some say 50s) where you were just as likely to walk into a hospital (or seek professional care) and live as die. What is sports sciences’ watershed point?

[quote]Also, medical science is about understanding our biology, and as such will eventually map out enough that we will understand even hypertrophy.
[/quote]I agree, I think that we have lots to go on already, like I said, I think we’ve got all the cards we need in a deck, it’s time make up some rules and start dealing the hands.

[quote]Correct, sports science is pretty limited and precise in scope.
That brings me to money. Yes medical science (which is the same science in the end as exercise science) has made great leaps and bounds in the past fifty years and exercise science hasn’t. Why? Research. There is more money in the medical field than exercise. And justifiably so, I mean what is more important, your bicep size or your brain tumor?[/quote]
That’s a good point, and on initial investment, you are correct. But, sports vs. medicine? Do you really think the limiting factor is $? I would tend to agree, but there’s also the fact that if I pay my doctor to fix my broken arm or prevent me from getting polio, my arm will get fixed and I’ll never get polio. I don’t see similar equivalent certainties in sports science.

I also perceive sports science as having been a little bit backwards or conflicted in it’s application. Coaches want THEIR athletes to perform better than anyone’s. As such they disregard group studies, hide training data, cheat, spread disinformation, etc. Bodybuilding on the other hand seems to be more “open source” publishing magazines and free online warehouses of information. Maybe you’re right and this is what medicine looked like in its infancy (the more I think about it, the more this is true).

If I have a routine that works no matter what, you’re not interested? If someone else comes up with that routine, people are sure as hell going to want to train athletes to beat them.

Unless the hard way isn’t working, in which case, you might want to take a step back and reevaluate, huh? And that’s not all we can do, thus the post.

Agreed, but history and hubris would dictate that 50 yrs. down the road, some/most of what these guys have written, said, and done will be obselete. I’m interested in the ideas that will make them such.

lucasa,

Damn good points all around. In fact I agree with probably 98% of your rebuttals. One thing that you said is a version of what I’ve said for years, that everything we know now is either wrong or incomplete and in time we will laugh at our arrogance.

I still maintain my position about the money though. People are much more concerned about cancer than biceps. I feel that it will be a Teflon moment when someone stumbles upon the cause of hypertrophy. They will be looking for something else and find the cure for skinny. I do believe that we will eventually know exactly how to dial into our potential, it will take a much greater understanding of how this biochemical machine we call a body works though.

This is a good thread, it made me think… damn, I’m not used to that.

Rolo.

[quote]lucasa wrote:

Did you read my post? I’m assuming Aikigreg that you are familiar with aikijutsu/do? Which is more important in that art? Size, strength, or skill?

Can’t the exact same can be said for any routine postulated on this sight?

[/quote]

No, chief I just winged it. I can’t actually read, nor type. In fact, I never actually posted. You’re imagining it all. What kind of a question IS that? Aikido is of course both strength and skill, and to a greater or lesser extent, size. Given equal strength and skill, size decides the outcome. DUH.

And yes, the same can be said of ANY routine. That’s my whole point. Variety is the spice of life, and the key to lifting.

[quote]Mastermind wrote:
lucasa,

Damn good points all around. In fact I agree with probably 98% of your rebuttals. One thing that you said is a version of what I’ve said for years, that everything we know now is either wrong or incomplete and in time we will laugh at our arrogance.

I still maintain my position about the money though. People are much more concerned about cancer than biceps. I feel that it will be a Teflon moment when someone stumbles upon the cause of hypertrophy. They will be looking for something else and find the cure for skinny. I do believe that we will eventually know exactly how to dial into our potential, it will take a much greater understanding of how this biochemical machine we call a body works though.

This is a good thread, it made me think… damn, I’m not used to that.

Rolo.[/quote]

It’s funny that you say that, because of had some of this stuff in my head since reading about mechano growth factor. Basically, it’s related to igf-1 and is only present in exercised or damaged muscles. Add extra MGF, you get hypertrophy (freaky kinds of 150% hypertrophy), take away MGF, you get dystrophy. It may not bare out in humans, but it definitely makes you question what you know about training hard, recovery capacity, etc. And, I agree with you about the money. I’m just thinking about the billions that are spent on sports and how little is spent on research and while billions are spent on medicine I guess medicine prioritizes their research a higher.

[quote]aikigreg wrote:
No, chief I just winged it. I can’t actually read, nor type. In fact, I never actually posted. You’re imagining it all. What kind of a question IS that?[/quote]

I wasn’t trying to be insulting, it’s just that you posted, IMO, the exact T-Nation stereotype that I was trying to describe. The ‘hypertrophy training is only good for hypertrophy’ mindset. I don’t know anyone that can squat 300# for 20 reps that I would describe as weak. And you don’t get to be 250+# of lean mass without being a strong mofo.

This was another part of my point, even in aikido, weight carries an advantage. And that advantage isn’t really quantifiable (right now), so to dis hypertrophy training in favor of “functional” training can seem arbitrary.

To be clear, your whole point is that in lifting, the only constant is a variable?

Just like you grow at home resting, not in the gym, you learn about training when you go and do it, not at home reading.

You should spend more time training than talking about it, and about the same time reading and thinking about training as training.

It all works, it all stops working eventually. Even Weider crap. It all also works longer on the sauce.

Interesting thread
jack

Mastermind, I accidentally put up a post under the screenname Ferrum. My brother logged on and I didn’t notice until after I had put up the reply. Sorry for any confusion.

[quote]jackreape wrote:
Just like you grow at home resting, not in the gym, you learn about training when you go and do it, not at home reading.

You should spend more time training than talking about it, and about the same time reading and thinking about training as training.

It all works, it all stops working eventually. Even Weider crap. It all also works longer on the sauce.

Interesting thread
jack[/quote]

Is this a thinly veiled “Shut the fuck up (and lift)” post that TC was talking about?:slight_smile:

If it all works, why do you call it Weider crap (Unless you’re using crap in a non-derogatory sense, in which case, I withdraw my question.).

I should spend more time training than talking about it and the same time reading and thinking as training? If I called it groupthink, would it make it okay to talk as much as train. Also, (if you couldn’t guess), I think about things far in excess of anything my recovery capacity could handle.

I’m glad it’s at least interesting and people get it though, I was thinking I’d get nothing but death threats and ‘go to hell’.

Good luck with your training and crap.