For My Anti-War Friends...

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
181

I will agree with ProX here. You would think that we could have controlled some outcomes a little better. I was pissed when we heard about those laser-guided bombs that made their way to marketplaces with civilians. We don’t have maps, stopwatches, and telescope/altimeters anymore, for cryin’ out loud! What the hell? A Tomahawk hits a house and kills a civilian family? Who programmed that one?

I can’t help but think that we could have done this better if we had committed more guys all in the beginning. I’m no military knowledge person here, maybe there’s logistic problems or something that I don’t understand. There’s definitely stuff about our invasion I wish we could have a do-over for. Was this whole thing rushed? Maybe. I don’t know enough about modern warfare to call it either way. Oh well.

182

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Answer my question if the military would take you now,flat feet and all would you, not anyone else, but you be willing to go over there now?

Would the prospect of you dying tomorrow in combat, again you, push you to look for other alternatives?
[/quote]

Sorry, I meant to answer this earlier.

Anyway, yes I would be going, as long as I am sure that my obligations to paying child support are met by getting paid enough. I am not squeamish, nor am I a pussy when it comes to violence and carnage. I would imagine that I would be placed in a medical capacity, and if that meant working a clinic somewhere dangerous or going along with patrols as medical backup or whatever I would not be afraid.

Death can come for you at any time. I could get in my car this weekend (a dangerous thing to do), and find out what it is like on the receiving end of the medical services I provide for a living. I could die during my next set of heavy squats… sometimes it feels like I’m going to anyway. There is nowhere safe from death, so I feel it is best to accept the fact that the ride is going to end whether I want it to or not. But to fear and worry about the inevitable is like sitting in a rocking chair: it gives you something to do, but it doesn’t get you anywhere.

Is this “cause” good enough to put my life at risk? I could die.

But how would that be different from any other time? At least my life will have had some meaning even at the end. The girl who died last night in my ER from shooting too much heroin can’t really say that, can she?

183

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Was this whole thing rushed? [/quote]

Yes. And the sad thing is, way too many actually applauded that action for way too long. The administration saw an opportunity with 9/11 and used that to gain support for a war initiative…even against the thoughts of the rest of the world. Will it damage us in the long run with regards to advancements in technology (due to a lack of foreign mind power along with ours), our place in the world view and our future relations? No doubt. Wars should be well thought out and planned…not thrown together for the sake of a “war legacy” which is what this smells of to me.

That doesn’t mean that Saddam didn’t need to be taken care of. It does mean that there was no reason for us to go in how we did or when we did.

184

Ahahaha! I was starting to think you were an opinionated ass (live everyone else on the boards), but now I see you aren’t such a bad guy.

185

Jeez, Loth, I addressed your question in another thread. I didn’t agree with this war from the get. From weighing both sides and from what those in power were saying at the time, I thought it wasn’t an imminient threat nor had any justification for an invasion or piss poor occupation.

And to address your, “we can die in a car wreck comment,”. Yes, yes,we can die in a car wreck, but I would say the odds are hastened a bit when you are in an environmnet where people are actively and aggressively attempting to take your life. Not in the emergency room watching a heroin addict die. Or driving down the street and getting in a car wreck.

186

lumpy,

Thanks for the link.

We’ve got the State Department I linked saying it’s the lowest in 30 years.

Then we have your article saying it’s the highest.

Then we have confusion about the methodology.

Then we have arguing about the motives for stopping the count.

Then we have from your article:

“Another U.S. official said Rice’s office was leery of the center’s methodology, believing that analysts eager to avoid a repetition of last year’s undercount included incidents that may not have been terrorist attacks. The U.S. intelligence officials said Rice’s office eliminated “Patterns of Global Terrorism” when the counterterrorism center declined to use alternative methodology that would have reported fewer significant attacks.”

I suppose you and I are potentially both right and both wrong.

Interesting.

JeffR

187

Perhaps my Democratic friends can help me on this.

I’m at a loss to see what exactly you are aiming for.

I’m assuming from some of your posts that you want a spanish-style immediate withdrawl.

Some have criticised the method of fighting the war. I’m always tempted to talk about hindsight being 20/20. Even if there were mistakes made, exactly what is the point of talking about how many more troops should/should not have been on the ground in 2003?

There are so few (if any) constructive criticisms being put forth, that I am guessing as to your ultimate goal.

I am aware of the partisan component to this and the heartfelt sadness of loss of American/Iraqi life. However, I’m curious as to whether there is any deeper understanding of the issue.

For the sake of argument, imagine if everyone stopped supporting the war in Iraq. Imagine if every justthefacts looney theory turned out to be right on. Imagine if your pal W. was thrown out of office. Imagine Cheney being thrown out. Imagine Hassert being thrown out. Imagine John “fuck me” kerry suddenly being President (for the sake of argument).

Imagine we pulled out of Iraq next week. I mean everyone out of Iraq. Not one U.S. soldier or civilian on the ground.

What would happen today?

Is this what you really want?

Tell me the consequences of that action?

Do you want something else altogether?

I am very interested if any of the liberals can come up with a balanced list of positives and negatives that would occur from this action.

Surprise me.

JeffR

188

Jerffy,

Wow, that was a mental leap. Funny, the way the numbers are prepared has a lot to do with the result.

Anyway, as long as you look at all sources of numbers carefully, you’ll be less likely to be mislead.

These things are shaped, so clowns like you will grab onto them and chant them repeatedly at people as if they actually prove anything.

Good work!

189

[quote]vroom wrote:
Jerffy,

Wow, that was a mental leap. Funny, the way the numbers are prepared has a lot to do with the result.

Anyway, as long as you look at all sources of numbers carefully, you’ll be less likely to be mislead.

These things are shaped, so clowns like you will grab onto them and chant them repeatedly at people as if they actually prove anything.

Good work![/quote]

Wow! Once again you’ve added absolutely nothing meaningful! Why did you bother to type that out? Should I start saying what you’re going to say before you say it? Oh wait what a total and complete waste of time!

190

Cream, if your mind wasn’t completely shut, then what I said would in fact mean something… perhaps something trivially obvious to most.

191

[quote]Cream wrote:
vroom wrote:
Jerffy,

Wow, that was a mental leap. Funny, the way the numbers are prepared has a lot to do with the result.

Anyway, as long as you look at all sources of numbers carefully, you’ll be less likely to be mislead.

These things are shaped, so clowns like you will grab onto them and chant them repeatedly at people as if they actually prove anything.

Good work!

Wow! Once again you’ve added absolutely nothing meaningful! Why did you bother to type that out? Should I start saying what you’re going to say before you say it? Oh wait what a total and complete waste of time!

[/quote]

If this is such a waste of your precious time pull chalks, set sail, GTF outta here, don’t worry you won’t be missed!

192

elk wrote:

“If this is such a waste of your precious time pull chalks, set sail, GTF outta here, don’t worry you won’t be missed!”

Bullshit!!! Most of us would miss Cream tremendously.

You’re just pissed because a fellow serviceman slapped you down yesterday.

Again, you asked for it.

Oh, did you give your speech yet?

If you stop posting for a while, I’ll know that you did.

I can see it now: elk stops posting.

Comes back on with:

I’m a changed man. No longer will I prejudice an entire public service organization because “a few of my friends were roughed up.”

I’ll think much more broadly than this. I want to apologize to the families of the NYPD, LAPD, and elsewhere for my ignorant comments. I realize now that many of them face far more physical danger on a daily basis than I ever have.

Further, I’ll actually participate in my community by partnering with the Police in a neighborhood watch program. I’ll work with the Police so that my “I’ve never called 911” ass, will actually learn what I am talking about.

No more uninformed internet tough guy moments for me!!!

I’m going to do something positive!!!

It was a nice fantasy.

Actually, I’ll bet you keep on trying to lord it over people with your target-plotting past. You’ll never say these things to your “police friends” or down at your local precinct. You won’t take time to learn about the Force on a daily basis. You’ll take your cues from your admittedly limited understanding.

Too bad, it was a nice fantasy.

JeffR

193

[quote]JeffR wrote:
elk wrote:

“If this is such a waste of your precious time pull chalks, set sail, GTF outta here, don’t worry you won’t be missed!”

Bullshit!!! Most of us would miss Cream tremendously.

You’re just pissed because a fellow serviceman slapped you down yesterday.

Again, you asked for it.

Oh, did you give your speech yet?

If you stop posting for a while, I’ll know that you did.

I can see it now: elk stops posting.

Comes back on with:

I’m a changed man. No longer will I prejudice an entire public service organization because “a few of my friends were roughed up.”

I’ll think much more broadly than this. I want to apologize to the families of the NYPD, LAPD, and elsewhere for my ignorant comments. I realize now that many of them face far more physical danger on a daily basis than I ever have.

Further, I’ll actually participate in my community by partnering with the Police in a neighborhood watch program. I’ll work with the Police so that my “I’ve never called 911” ass, will actually learn what I am talking about.

No more uninformed internet tough guy moments for me!!!

I’m going to do something positive!!!

It was a nice fantasy.

Actually, I’ll bet you keep on trying to lord it over people with your target-plotting past. You’ll never say these things to your “police friends” or down at your local precinct. You won’t take time to learn about the Force on a daily basis. You’ll take your cues from your admittedly limited understanding.

Too bad, it was a nice fantasy.

JeffR
[/quote]

Is your whole fragile identity based on you being a cop if you are indeed a cop? Have you ever once posted outside of a political forum?

When a fellow police officer posted a thread about getting in shape for the job a few months ago, not one post came from you, if I recall, to help a fellow cop. Again, If you’re indeed a cop!

When this officer posted his request for help you were rabidly posting as usual on that day in the political forums. Not one offering of help came from you. Yet, you profess to be a physical specimen beyond the norm.

You are a hypocrite of the highest order and IMO an impostor. Your snide and juvenile and smell of a rat that lives in a fantasy world to me. You can say whatever you want to me or about me because to me it has no value what so ever!

194

Hey Guys,

How about putting some of this incredible energy to a useful purpose? Elsewhere on this forum, I posted a thread called Adopt-a-soldier. Instead of shredding each other, how about something meaningful?
You can ignore my post and go back to shrieking at each other, or step up and be a T-man.

195

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Hey Guys,

How about putting some of this incredible energy to a useful purpose? Elsewhere on this forum, I posted a thread called Adopt-a-soldier. Instead of shredding each other, how about something meaningful?
You can ignore my post and go back to shrieking at each other, or step up and be a T-man.[/quote]

Headhunter, I’ll take a look at your thread and see what feasibility there is for me. I do have financial responsibilities of my own and I am not independently wealthy, but I will look and see if it something I would want to do.

You should be asking those responsible for sending the troops over there to help. Bush or Cheney could dwarf a US cities contribution with the kind of monetary donation they could make.

196

elk,

Have you considered that your words may have been a bit hasty or ill chosen?

As far as what you believe about me, that is your concern. One of the beauties/shortcomings of the internet is anonymity.

You made some reference about posting in the other forums. I have done it only a few times. Both times I believe I followed pox (I’m sorry to say) to point out some of his bad behavior.

However, when asked about my training, I have always been very up front.

I have the advantage of having a very knowledgable training partner who has a similar physique. He develops very effective programs. I honestly don’t add much to them. All I have to do is show up, support him, lift tendon-tearing poundages, and thank him.

I train using a modified West Side regimen. We don’t take any gear or wear any shirts. Therefore, we have found that their regimen doesn’t give nearly enough chest development. We also incorporate bodybuilding moves for biceps/traps/abs.

I’ve never found a better program for legs or back, however.

Don’t take any supplements except for vitamins. Food and vitamins.

Now, elk, should I type that in another forum somewhere? Would that help anyone else? If so, I’d be happy to cut and paste.

No bullshit, balls to the wall, maximum effort. No gear, no excuses, nothing.

Would you agree, that’s not the “sexiest” programme to read about?

JeffR

197

Headhunter, I went back and read the thread and the requirements and process. I will sign up this evening.

198

[quote]JeffR wrote:
elk,

Have you considered that your words may have been a bit hasty or ill chosen?

As far as what you believe about me, that is your concern. One of the beauties/shortcomings of the internet is anonymity.

You made some reference about posting in the other forums. I have done it only a few times. Both times I believe I followed pox (I’m sorry to say) to point out some of his bad behavior.

However, when asked about my training, I have always been very up front.

I have the advantage of having a very knowledgable training partner who has a similar physique. He develops very effective programs. I honestly don’t add much to them. All I have to do is show up, support him, lift tendon-tearing poundages, and thank him.

I train using a modified West Side regimen. We don’t take any gear or wear any shirts. Therefore, we have found that their regimen doesn’t give nearly enough chest development. We also incorporate bodybuilding moves for biceps/traps/abs.

I’ve never found a better program for legs or back, however.

Don’t take any supplements except for vitamins. Food and vitamins.

Now, elk, should I type that in another forum somewhere? Would that help anyone else? If so, I’d be happy to cut and paste.

No bullshit, balls to the wall, maximum effort. No gear, no excuses, nothing.

Would you agree, that’s not the “sexiest” programme to read about?

JeffR[/quote]

Their you go missing the point again oh blind one. I don’t give a damn about your work out program. I was commenting on your lack of contributing to anything other then being a hypocritical wiseass cheerleader when you attempt to degrade others with your juvenile comments and veiled put downs. And your incessant “I’m a cop, go talk to cops, cops will beat you up,” rhetoric. Get a clue!

199

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Hey Guys,

How about putting some of this incredible energy to a useful purpose? Elsewhere on this forum, I posted a thread called Adopt-a-soldier. Instead of shredding each other, how about something meaningful?
You can ignore my post and go back to shrieking at each other, or step up and be a T-man.[/quote]

I agree.

Back on topic…

Is war just??? Not to some.
Is not going to war just? Not to some.

If all nations were democracies would there be war? Hell yes.

We might as well discuss abortion at this point.

200

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Jeez, Loth, I addressed your question in another thread. I didn’t agree with this war from the get. From weighing both sides and from what those in power were saying at the time, I thought it wasn’t an imminient threat nor had any justification for an invasion or piss poor occupation.

And to address your, “we can die in a car wreck comment,”. Yes, yes,we can die in a car wreck, but I would say the odds are hastened a bit when you are in an environmnet where people are actively and aggressively attempting to take your life. Not in the emergency room watching a heroin addict die. Or driving down the street and getting in a car wreck. [/quote]

Well, at least you answered me. Thanks. And from your next paragraph, I would guess that you think I’m a little foolish? Maybe I am.