A quick question:
When was the last time in history that a free and democratic nation started a war against another free and democratic nation?
And following from that first question… What would happen if all the nations of the world were free and democratic?
Think about it for a second.
The only ones that come readily to mind was when the US invaded Iceland and the war of 1812.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
A quick question:
When was the last time in history that a free and democratic nation started a war against another free and democratic nation?
And following from that first question… What would happen if all the nations of the world were free and democratic?
Think about it for a second.[/quote]
the last time it happened? I guess that would be the last Pak/Indian skirmish—1999?
As for the second part-- I dunno- I guess there would still be wars.
[quote]100meters wrote:
As for the second part-- I dunno- I guess there would still be wars.
[/quote]
Agreed. It is a part of human nature. Democracy means little because no one will think exactly the same as someone else…and there will always be someone who has more power who thinks they are more right. That alone will lead to wars and resistance, leading to different political change.
[quote]100meters wrote:
the last time it happened? I guess that would be the last Pak/Indian skirmish—1999?
As for the second part-- I dunno- I guess there would still be wars.
[/quote]
Isn’t India run by the military after the coup in 1999 (I think that’s the year).
Yes, what are you implying by saying all of the world was free and democratic? Utopia?
To think you are going to reach somepoint where the whole wide world lives in peace and harmony seems a bit naive.
Hmmm… I don’t know if those really qualify, bro. Iceland in 1941? That was a preventative measure to protect them from Germany. That’s pretty much accepted by everyone. You would be hard-pressed to say that we started a war with Iceland.
As for the War of 1812, well, I could make a pretty good argument that GB was quite the not “free and democratic” society. Especially when they are pressing our soldiers into their own service. That’s hardly free and democratic in the manner of say, modern-day Great Britain.
This is a pretty damn good list. These societies aren’t really “free” though. I think you guys are seeing what I’m getting at here. What happens when all the people of the world can look forward to a future free of oppression and bitterness?
I just did a lot of thinking today (perhaps that would explain the headache), and I tried to envision how there could ever be world peace. It would have to be a world free of tyranny, right? How the hell is that ever going to happen? I thought that if there was ever a way to do it, it would have to involve democracy everywhere.
Thanks for the input, fellas. Sometimes it’s hard to get to sleep during the day after working all night, so I think about weird shit to get tired.
[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Yes, what are you implying by saying all of the world was free and democratic? Utopia?
To think you are going to reach somepoint where the whole wide world lives in peace and harmony seems a bit naive.[/quote]
Naive? Perhaps. I’m not saying that this is going to happen, I’m just mentally jerking off right now.
Think about it though, Elk. How else could world peace ever happen?
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
A quick question:
When was the last time in history that a free and democratic nation started a war against another free and democratic nation?
And following from that first question… What would happen if all the nations of the world were free and democratic?
Think about it for a second.[/quote]
First off, what difference does it make if the counrty is democratic?
Have you bothered to look at all the countries that the U.S. has had a hand in overthrowing? Chille and Brazil come to mind. But I guess it doesn’t count if the population votes against the interests of U.S. and multi-national corporations.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
This is a pretty damn good list. These societies aren’t really “free” though. I think you guys are seeing what I’m getting at here. What happens when all the people of the world can look forward to a future free of oppression and bitterness?
I just did a lot of thinking today (perhaps that would explain the headache), and I tried to envision how there could ever be world peace. It would have to be a world free of tyranny, right? How the hell is that ever going to happen? I thought that if there was ever a way to do it, it would have to involve democracy everywhere.
[/quote]
Your biggest mistake in this, along with the same one I see many Americans even making, is that you assume that your understanding of “free” is what everyone in the world wants as a goal. There are tyrannies because there are people willing to bow to them. If everyone in any society revolted as one mind, no one tyrant could ever survive. There will always be leaders and followers, those with more power, and those who are powerless. The biggest hypocrisy in my view is trying to “give” the world our own version of freedom, instead of getting the hell out of the way and letting the people alone decide. Some have actually fallen for this though…instead of realizing that one of the largest reasons our hand stays in the pot is due to our own desires as far as what an area holds. True freedom isn’t guided into any one person’s particular mould of “freedom”.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Elkhntr1 wrote:
Yes, what are you implying by saying all of the world was free and democratic? Utopia?
To think you are going to reach somepoint where the whole wide world lives in peace and harmony seems a bit naive.
Naive? Perhaps. I’m not saying that this is going to happen, I’m just mentally jerking off right now.
Think about it though, Elk. How else could world peace ever happen?
[/quote]
Didn’t John Lennon already try to say this?
Imagine there’s no Heaven
It’s easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Naive? Perhaps. I’m not saying that this is going to happen, I’m just mentally jerking off right now.
Think about it though, Elk. How else could world peace ever happen?
[/quote]
It couldn’t. We don’t even have peace in our own nation so how the hell are we going to give it to anyone else? It implies that our own current system is very far removed from providing “peace and freedom”. We have more restrictions being thrown on us daily, most in the name of “saving the kids”.
I was watching the news tonight and one woman was filing a complaint because her pharmacist (at a CVS drug sture) would not fill her order of birth control pills because he says he doesn’t believe in restricting birth in any way. He says this as if God has decreed that no woman should ever be on birth control pills. The fact that he is now allowed to do this speaks very loudly to me that we are very much at war right here at home. It is simply a war using less guns but still an effort to outwardly control everyone who doesn’t think the way someone else does.
In fact, we have made even more of a mistake by claiming many of our own actions are now because of morals and some “righteousness” that you supposedly have because of religion. Even Jesus never forced anyone to do anything. It was always a choice. It amazes me how so many seem to think that choice should be removed and everyone should be forced to act a certain way. God never intended that.
How is that for mentally jerking off?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I was watching the news tonight and one woman was filing a complaint because her pharmacist (at a CVS drug sture) would not fill her order of birth control pills because he says he doesn’t believe in restricting birth in any way. He says this as if God has decreed that no woman should ever be on birth control pills. The fact that he is now allowed to do this speaks very loudly to me that we are very much at war right here at home. It is simply a war using less guns but still an effort to outwardly control everyone who doesn’t think the way someone else does.[/quote]
Damn, some religious folks are even more uppity than I give them credit for! LOL You’d think that the pharmacy would fire him for refusing to sell their merchandise or something…
[quote]In fact, we have made even more of a mistake by claiming many of our own actions are now because of morals and some “righteousness” that you supposedly have because of religion. Even Jesus never forced anyone to do anything. It was always a choice. It amazes me how so many seem to think that choice should be removed and everyone should be forced to act a certain way. God never intended that.
How is that for mentally jerking off?
[/quote]
Aha! That’s pretty good, ProX. And here we come (hehe) to the heart of the argument. How are people going to ever be able to make that “choice” that you and I value so highly if they are never given the opportunity – born into oppression, for example, like so many of today’s children. What happens if they all have that chance? Are they going to realistically say “ya know what? I enjoyed having my life decided for me, I think I’ll go back to oppression…” Something tells me that this will not happen.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
It couldn’t. We don’t even have peace in our own nation so how the hell are we going to give it to anyone else? It implies that our own current system is very far removed from providing “peace and freedom”. We have more restrictions being thrown on us daily, most in the name of “saving the kids”.
[/quote]
And I wanted to say something about this, too. I totally agree that we don’t have “peace” in our own nation in the way that we aren’t necessarily harmonious and agreeing. We disagree in this country… sometimes vehemently. Take a stroll through the poli forums here at T-nation and you will see some real shit-slinging. And this is a good thing. We do not rest on our laurels here. We feel strongly about things sometimes, and when we do not agree, there is conflict.
But the kind of peace that I want is the kind where we can disagree and shout at each other without strapping a fucking explosive device to ourselves and blowing up twenty people in a marketplace. That’s a bit different.
I accept there are some flaws. In those two examples.
Generally democracies get along and it’s a worthwhile goal.
One of the tools that tyrants use is the threat posed by external enemies.
It’s harder for democracies to do the same thing but not impossible. There are some simple ways to manipulate peoples thoughts.
Democracy itself can be tenuous. Look at the Weimar republic. Hitler was elected.
The greatest danger, is letting wishful thinking delude us into thinking we have advanced so far that we are no longer capable of evil.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
The greatest danger, is letting wishful thinking delude us into thinking we have advanced so far that we are no longer capable of evil.[/quote]
This is a pretty cool thought. I would answer it by saying that it is our wishful thinking which gives birth to our advances. It is not delusional to have hope, my friend.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Your biggest mistake in this, along with the same one I see many Americans even making, is that you assume that your understanding of “free” is what everyone in the world wants as a goal. There are tyrannies because there are people willing to bow to them. If everyone in any society revolted as one mind, no one tyrant could ever survive. There will always be leaders and followers, those with more power, and those who are powerless. The biggest hypocrisy in my view is trying to “give” the world our own version of freedom, instead of getting the hell out of the way and letting the people alone decide. Some have actually fallen for this though…instead of realizing that one of the largest reasons our hand stays in the pot is due to our own desires as far as what an area holds. True freedom isn’t guided into any one person’s particular mould of “freedom”.[/quote]
I agree with you. Of course, you point’s relevance to Iraq is obvious. We are sending young people over there to die to do something that most of the Iraqi people weren’t prepared to do for themselves- risk their lives to depose Saddam.
As for your other point, Prof, it is clear that people in the Middle East do not value the freedom and democracy they have been given. They have a different set of values. It was naive of Bush etc. to expect the Iraqi people to be grovellingly grateful for giving them our system of freedom. They should have been left to find their own, if they deserved it.
The title of your thread interests me, as does the whole concept of ‘anti-war’, and its assumed opposite, ‘pro-war’. While war does seem to be part of human nature and sometimes is necessary to defend our nation, how could anybody say they were ‘Pro-war’? Pro death and destruction? Is that a good thing? Surely everybody, even those in the military or who support the invasion of Iraq, is anti-war? It is just we all differ on when this horrible thing is necessary.
BEING “free and democratic” is one thing - getting there is another. Good in theory - unfortunately WE lose more of our freedoms in the process of molding the world into our own image.
Tyranny always follows freedom and democracy anyway because it’s a cyclical process. The populace eventually becomes too comfortable, complacent and trusting as the government grows bigger and becomes more controlling and corrupt.
Freedom and democracy CAN NEVER be achieved through force - that is the polar opposite of “freedom and democracy”. That’s why the Iraq situation and all this talk about “spreading” freedom and democracy around the globe is so scary to a lot of people. Those things aren’t GIVEN by the government - they’re TAKEN FROM the government by the people.
Already people are getting implants containing all their personal info and school kids are being cataloged through a process that resembles an actual arrest, complete with fingerprinting. McGruff needs all your kids fingerprints for their own “safety”.
Unfortunately, until the world is “free”, we need to be able to read your email or know what books your reading or scan your retinas before you board a plane or enter the football stadium or go into the mall. We need to know where your vehicle is at all times and how many miles you drove and how fast you were going - strictly for your protection.
Then once we weaponize space and rid the world of terrorism, everything can go back to normal.
“Freedom is on the march” alright - unfortunately “freedom” is doing the goosestep.