7 months in the beginning of TRT, 3 months after crashing E2.
What was your past steroid use including AIs? Given your history and your obvious genetic disposition for gynecomastia this goes beyond the typical TRT protocol as you have a lot of moving pieces here.
- Prior steroid use/abuse
- Finasteride use
- Different AI usage
- HCG introduction w/subsequent tapering
Gynecomastia is a side effect of PFS as well as many of your other issues. Maybe @physioLojik can weigh in.
PFS Side Effects:
How’s hepatic function? Lifestyle, diet.
Familial history of pubertal gyno or gyno in general
It’s been 10 years, but I recall using Deca, Sustanon and Winstrol, along with Clomid and Tamoxifene, but never an AI. I remember being anxious, aggressive, sweating a lot and having gynecomastia while on steroids, but never took an AI back then.
As I said before, Finasteride has changed something probably in the gene expression, leaving me with a chronic elevated prolactin (in the 20s) that I can lower only with cabergoline.
And now we have something new in the mix.
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The first endocrinologist that diagnosed my PFS was shocked by the health of my liver, stating he never saw a liver so healthy. I never drink alcohol, never took street drugs, never smoked, coffee once a week or every 2 weeks.
My hobby is lifting weights at the gym and I’ve been lifting heavy even on a total testerone of 200 for years, but obviously my strength and body composition improved now that I’m on TRT. I do intermittent fasting when not working out, or eating 3 meals of whole food during working out days, with my main source of carbs being rice, fruit, vegetables and potatoes (with some bread on rare occasions), and protein and fats from meat, eggs and fish. No sugars except weekends.
No gyno in family, but my dad got his enlarged prostate removed , due to high estrogen most likely.
I haven’t touched cabergoline in months, even if Dr. Saya advised to re-introduce it if the E2 lowering won’t bring it down.
There is just a lot going on in this mix is my point.
except Deca, Sustanon and Winstrol, along with Clomid and Tamoxifene?
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Got it, but the main discussion focus was understanding if some could benefit from an AI or if AI can’t find any room in a TRT regimen. As you can see from my previous replies, I have been trying to be off an AI even with symptoms for months and it didn’t work, i still aromatize a lot, despite a healthy lifestyle.
Regarding the steroids, they were pharmaceutical grade, straight from the pharmacy, and I think @physioLojik can explain the difference here.Never took anything out of internet or the black market. I don’t get your point here.
I hear you man and I am just saying there is a lot going on here and it isn’t a typical TRT with AI situation. Im not trying to be difficult, I am just trying to get everything on the table.
Sorry, a lot of these drugs are not pharmacy provided so you don’t know exactly what you are taking.
They are in the country I was, provided by a pharmacist friend that warned me of the risks, but wasn’t strong enough to stop me.
But, yeah I agree, my case is quite unusual.
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Ahhhh so he could bench 315 but you could bench 405, therefore he couldn’t stop you, one of those classic scenarios.
In all seriousness sometimes you just need to let people make their own mistakes, sometimes they’ll learn from their own faults, other times they irreversibly fuck up their lives, there’s only so much you can do to help out before someone is dead set on doing something (like all the teens who come on here who are like “fuck everyone else I’m running 2gs of gear I know everything” #choochem) can’t help everyone, in which case it’s best to dispense harm reduction strategies such as what you’re pharmacist friend did (warned you of the risks)
Anyway the anabolic steroids likely didn’t help with regard to you ending up with hypogonadism (do you have labs pre finasteride use), however PFS is very real, if you’re as healthy as you say you are and micro dosing AI’s work for you without seriously impacting bloodwork (particularly lipids), then I say do what works for you. I’m no expert in this field, however there are always the few anomalies that DO end up requiring AI’s, however these are few and far between.
Unless DHEA or PREG is low, I can’t see a reason to take them.
Prolactin is somewhat elevated. Have you ever had a pit MRI?
That was my point. If experienced docs, like Dr. Saya for example, still prescribe them in low doses, I think there are still some people who would benefit from them. It’s not wise being black and white in this situation. It wasn’t wise to tell people to target on a E2 of 23 pg/mL or the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse would have killed you, as I don’t think it’s wise to say don’t ever touch an AI for any reason in the world.
Never did, as doctors told me the numbers weren’t elevated enough to justify a pit MRI.
I don’t find any body saying don’t ever use an ai. Atleast not from the sources that I found.
This makes it clear when someone might need an ai. However for most men with normal histories it seems they could benefit from never touching it and trying every protocol to stay off.
I have a friend whose doc gives him 200mg a week and he takes .5 ai x 2 a week. He hears me about the ai and he wants to get off. But where does he start and how will his body respond to 2-3 years of ai dosing. I bet when he comes off , his body won’t know how to deal with e2 and it’s gonna be a shit show. It’s either that or deal with the side effects of ai as he turns 50. Some bullshit. Let’s take TRT to be healthy, except for your heart and bones and whatever else ai fucks.
I’m a 100% with you, 1 mg per week of an AI it’s just insane. You should do everything in order to stay on as less drugs as possible and I think it’s definitely possible on T alone, even if it requires to go on daily injections. But for me and other heavy aromatizer, adding HCG to the equation, makes it just impossible. If there was any other solution of keeping your fertility, I would have dropped HCG in the bin right now, but I’m not aware of any other way to do it, along with the supposed neurotransmitters benefits deriving from HCG, as dr. Crisler was claiming.
Your buddy probably doesnt need 200 mg per week to begin with. Tell your buddy to drop his testosterone to 100 mg per week and drop the ai. Stabilize after 5 to 6 weeks and check levels. It’s that simple and no reason to suffer. I have a good friend and wo partner who is taking 230 mg of testosterone a week coupled with 2 mg per week of arimidex. His e2 was sky high and so is his shbg. Still has low free testosterone and with 2 mg per week his e2 is in the mid 50s. I dont know what to tell him. Proviron? I think that might help him. Masteron or some other dht derivative that doesnt aromatize?
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Ya I know. I saw his levels and they are high. He also doesn’t feel the dose is working well as it should. I told him a little lower might help. AI probably causes some of the issues wth how good he feels. Just need to find a doc he can work with to get him off it. He’s open to anything a doc says.
What’s crazy is he hasn’t researched anything about trt at all since he started. He had full faith in what his docs tell him.
We are both potentially going to see a doc in the TN area but I have to meet him in person before I do. That sucks. However he is one of the docs at tot revolution round table and I like the way he practices hrt.
The Loss of fat is a big deal right? If someone wants off ai but hasn’t loss weight, then that’s a big road block correct?
Shit I have some tummy fat but I’m not on ai and I’m fine… can’t imagine how high e2 gets if majority of body is covered in fat.
I’m the same way. Tamoxafin won’t do
Shit for my high e2. Anxiety depression acne, low dose AI and within a couple days all three eliminated.