Flypaper Theory

You know Zap, I think we are mistaken. We should answer his question.

But we need to make sure that it is in fact an accurate reflection of events in Iraq.

First Bush was elected, so that doesn’t work right. So to match Iraq we need a military coup by some crazy loon. Lets name him orion.

After taking power, he proceeds to kill his enemies, and a few friends too. Then he begins ethnically cleansing the wrong Christians, and (unfortunately for me) the atheists. He gases San Francisco, telling them they were simply burning ganja, resulting in the death of tens of thousands of Hippies.

A terrible dictator at this time suddenly comes into control of Canada, and we go to war. (I’ll let Zap name this dictator.) China has a problem with them, because they want all Chinese dead for not being Canadeeish, so they give us a couple of tanks. (Later North Korea complains that they built our entire military.)

When things cool down between us and Canada, and after landfills are getting full of our bodies, orion decides to invade Mexico to take, (what does Mexico have? Oh yeah,) TAQUILA.

China decides that is the last straw, and invades us to get this loon out of power, but not before USSORion (formally America,) responds by sending a missile into Barbados, and re-institutes free elections. (Maybe everyone votes for George P Bush this time around.)

In this case I would be fighting right along with China and thanking them.

The problem with orion’s scenario is that doesn’t in any way match what happened in Iraq. But I played his game to fruition under roughly the same scenario as in Iraq.

[quote]The Mage wrote:
You know Zap, I think we are mistaken. We should answer his question.

But we need to make sure that it is in fact an accurate reflection of events in Iraq.

First Bush was elected, so that doesn’t work right. So to match Iraq we need a military coup by some crazy loon. Lets name him orion.

After taking power, he proceeds to kill his enemies, and a few friends too. Then he begins ethnically cleansing the wrong Christians, and (unfortunately for me) the atheists. He gases San Francisco, telling them they were simply burning ganja, resulting in the death of tens of thousands of Hippies.

A terrible dictator at this time suddenly comes into control of Canada, and we go to war. (I’ll let Zap name this dictator.) China has a problem with them, because they want all Chinese dead for not being Canadeeish, so they give us a couple of tanks. (Later North Korea complains that they built our entire military.)

When things cool down between us and Canada, and after landfills are getting full of our bodies, orion decides to invade Mexico to take, (what does Mexico have? Oh yeah,) TAQUILA.

China decides that is the last straw, and invades us to get this loon out of power, but not before USSORion (formally America,) responds by sending a missile into Barbados, and re-institutes free elections. (Maybe everyone votes for George P Bush this time around.)

In this case I would be fighting right along with China and thanking them.

The problem with orion’s scenario is that doesn’t in any way match what happened in Iraq. But I played his game to fruition under roughly the same scenario as in Iraq.[/quote]

Let us work a little on your scenario.

Canada is a dictatorship because the Chinese have ousted their democratically elected president, installing a dictatorship which was replaced by a slightly less restrictive form of theocracy after the Canadians rebelled.

Still, practically 100% of the Canadian airforce is of Chinese origin.

Though they have proven that they can topple American dictators like other people change their underwear, the Chinese do nothing as Orion gasses his own people and even provide military aid in the form of intelligence and satelite imagery as Orion decides to attack Canada.

Attacking Canada suits their needs, because their intervention has backfired and now, by fighting communism they have created a new enemy, radical Islam.

Canada fights back with all they have and hate the Chinese even more, calling them the Big Satan.

Orion decides to attack Mexico, for Taquila he needs to fuel his Army, if not Canadian, then Mexican.

He talks to his old cold war mentors, they tell him to go along.

He does

Surprisingly, they bomb the US to pieces and encourage American resistance movements to rise against Orion.

Unfortunately letters of condolence is all they get from the Chinese as Orion crushes his opposition.

They do not even get the “little” aid Orion had during the war against Canada.

The US faces a UN embargo that kills the old, the young and the weak.

Adding insult to injury, the Chinese foreign minister declares on international TV that 5000000 dead American children have been “worth it”.

Because Burmese rebels crash a plane into the Bejing towers, the Chinese feel like blowing shit up again in the US.

Orion, knowing that his time has come, tries to make a deal to flee to Cuba, because he likes the weather and the women.

The Chinese though, cocksure that that will be a piece of cake invade the US and find out to their surpise that they

a) know nothing about the country

b) have not even close to enough translators

c) have made enemies in the course of the last decades.

So, my questions:

The average American would react how?

And how much of a difference would it make if said nation assured you that they are not really targetting civilians, they just die at an artificially accelerated rate.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
We didn’t keep Saddam in power. We had relatively minor dealings with him when he was fighting the Iranians with him but they didn’t last because we realized what an evil man he was.
[/quote]

I believe the Ruskies were supplying him the majority of the arms during the war. We may have supplied cash. We supported him because we saw Iran as a bigger threat due to their arming terrorists in Lebanon and elsewhere.

After the war Saddam had dealings with the Germans, Russians and the French which is why they were opposed to the war in the first place.

[quote]orion wrote:
Feel free to answer my questions any time you like.

A) The average American would react how?

B) And how much of a difference would it make if said nation assured you that they are not really targetting civilians, they just die at an artificially accelerated rate?[/quote]

If Bush was throwing people live into meat grinders, had a full blown Stalinist police state going, was keeping money that was to be used for food and was buying arms and living rich while his country starved, and China over threw him with the promice that we could elect any political leader we wanted, maybe some people would go along with it.

And if there were a group of anti-Chinese terrorists who began killing the Chinese soldiers because they wanted Bush back in office, some people might not like this because they were offered something better by the Chinese.

Then, the anti-Chinese group begins killing civilians at random, because they want the Chinese gone. The average american might say, “what the hell are they killing their own when they should be attacking the Chinese if they do not like them?”

Then a bunch of foreigners, with nothing at stake come in and start killing many, many more civilians, not because they care about America, but because they just do not like the Chinese.

The Chinese are trying to police this, but they need our help and when they begin to start an army of Americans, the terrorists attack recruiting stations. When a prominent politican comes to the forefront, he is killed by the terrorists. When some Americans rally together to back the Chinese, they are attacked by the terrorists. Police and government officials are targeted. Schools, utilities, sports heros, and any sort of leader is targeted by the terrorists who don’t care about America, but do not want the Chinese to succeed.

Could you blame the Chinese for this situation? Do you think any one with a rational brain would want one of the terrorists to be your leader after the carnage they put the country through?

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
After the war Saddam had dealings with the Germans, Russians and the French which is why they were opposed to the war in the first place.[/quote]

You forgot that he was ditching the Dollar in favor of the Euro.

[quote]lixy wrote:

You forgot that he was ditching the Dollar in favor of the Euro.[/quote]

Oh my god, it all now falls into place. We went to war because he was thinking of using a different measurement for his oil.

Now we must go to war to get all those people using celsius instead of fahrenheit.

Seriously, why should we care? Many analysts think it would have little impact on the value of the Dollar. (Paraphrased from Bloomberg.) And the Speculative-Investor website finds the whole theory makes no sense.

This is just one of those unsubstantiated conspiracy theories going around the net.

[quote]orion wrote:
These rules of conduct. When were these put into place? Before or after Europe colonized half of the world?

After.

[/quote]

So, the Europeans have been displacing people, killing untold millions, invading nations, enslaving people, and overthrowing governments for 450 years (give or take a century) longer than the US has?

The Muslims for aproximately 1250 years. . .

And you guys have a problem when we do it?

lol

[quote]lixy wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
After the war Saddam had dealings with the Germans, Russians and the French which is why they were opposed to the war in the first place.

You forgot that he was ditching the Dollar in favor of the Euro.[/quote]

Well that’s why the French, Germans and Russians were obviously backing Saddam. Yet, you continue to tell us that we were backing him. And what kind of an ally bombs your ships during a war? I don’t think an ally would do something like that to a country which supports it. If my memory serves me right, we were helping Kuwait transport oil out of the gulf because the Iranians and Iraqis targeted their oil carrying ships. If we were allies with anyone, it was with the Kuwaitis.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
So, the Europeans have been displacing people, killing untold millions, invading nations, enslaving people, and overthrowing governments for 450 years (give or take a century) longer than the US has?

The Muslims for aproximately 1250 years. . .

And you guys have a problem when we do it?

lol [/quote]

Are you serious?

[quote]lixy wrote:

Are you serious?[/quote]

Am I lying?

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
orion wrote:
These rules of conduct. When were these put into place? Before or after Europe colonized half of the world?

After.

So, the Europeans have been displacing people, killing untold millions, invading nations, enslaving people, and overthrowing governments for 450 years (give or take a century) longer than the US has?

The Muslims for aproximately 1250 years. . .

And you guys have a problem when we do it?

lol

[/quote]

“you” had your fair share of killing and got a whole continent out of it.

Don`t be greedy.

Then I though you wanted to spread warmth and love and sunshine and wholesome Christian values, not conquer a country for resources.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
lixy wrote:

Are you serious?

Am I lying?[/quote]

No, just trying to rationalize murder.

If all your friends jump from a bridge, would you too?

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
lixy wrote:

Are you serious?

Am I lying?[/quote]

Lying? No. But one would think you’re joking.

Did you ever hear someone rationalize those invasions you cited?

As far as us spreading Christian values and conquering a whole continent, the Europeans are guilty of doing that all over the world, this continent included. Is the US to blame for what the Spanish did in Mexico and South America? Are we to blame for what the French did in Canada?

Come on, it was the Spanish who were Conquistadors, it was the British, the Dutch and the French who conquered most of North America.

And who exactly were and are the French, Spanish, British and Dutch? I’d say Europeans.

Yes the US did conquer a part of a continent, but it was started by the Europeans who were here before this nation was founded.

Typical how you continue to blame the US for everything, including discovering and conquering the entire continent. Was the US to blame for conquering Australia, and India also?

[quote]orion wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
lixy wrote:

Are you serious?

Am I lying?

No, just trying to rationalize murder.

If all your friends jump from a bridge, would you too?

[/quote]

You admit that the Europeans and Muslims were bigger murders than the US then?

You asked where the jealousy comes from? Maybe because you (Muslims, Europeans) once ruled the world with an iron hand and it was taken from you, and now you are jealous because we are standing tall in the world.

If my friends jumped from a bridge, would I jump? No, but does that excuse the Europeans and Muslims from the crimes they committed?

Why would you complain about me if I killed one person, while you killed ten? Doesn’t quite give you the moral high ground does it? Does it make you feel high and mighty because you killed more people than me? You are still a killer and when it comes right down to it, full of shit.

No,it doesn’t excuse anything that was done by us.But having done these things is also what makes modern Europe less than gung ho in going to war,and repeating the same mistakes over again.
Been there,done that.
And correct me if I’m mistaken,but is your argument “You guys did it,so now we can do it too and don’t dare criticize?”

Say it isn’t so…

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Typical how you continue to blame the US for everything, including discovering and conquering the entire continent. [/quote]

Discovering the continent? Ha, good one.

None of the events you cited excuse any of your wars of aggression. Nobody ever said what the Brits, French, Dutch, Christians or Muslims did was OK.

You clod!

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
orion wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
lixy wrote:

Are you serious?

Am I lying?

No, just trying to rationalize murder.

If all your friends jump from a bridge, would you too?

You admit that the Europeans and Muslims were bigger murders than the US then?

You asked where the jealousy comes from? Maybe because you (Muslims, Europeans) once ruled the world with an iron hand and it was taken from you, and now you are jealous because we are standing tall in the world.

If my friends jumped from a bridge, would I jump? No, but does that excuse the Europeans and Muslims from the crimes they committed?

Why would you complain about me if I killed one person, while you killed ten? Doesn’t quite give you the moral high ground does it? Does it make you feel high and mighty because you killed more people than me? You are still a killer and when it comes right down to it, full of shit.[/quote]

We can through this again of course.

Basic mores 101:

If you neighbour fucks his 10 year old nephew in his garage, does thus give you the right to do the same.

If he defended himself that his neighbour fucked his nephew in a garage 50 years ago, what would you think?

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
No,it doesn’t excuse anything that was done by us.But having done these things is also what makes modern Europe less than gung ho in going to war,and repeating the same mistakes over again.

Been there,done that.
And correct me if I’m mistaken,but is your argument “You guys did it,so now we can do it too and don’t dare criticize?”

Say it isn’t so…[/quote]

You’re the one who gets what I am trying to say, almost. I understand what you are saying in your first paragraph and you have a point.

Secondly, I never said it excuses what we do. I never said they should not criticize us.

It seems like it is the other way around here. They can point to things the US does time and time again, but their countries and their co-religious have done it all before us. If anything, we learned this kind of acting from them. And why am I wrong for pointing this out?

It isn’t about someone using something that happened 50 years ago in court as a defence, it’s about someone who raped their nephew 50 years ago thinking he has the moral high ground to tell me what is right and wrong.

It is almost like they are attacking the US because they are projecting their own self loathing, and the current inadequacy of their countries and co-religious onto us.

Think about that last part.