Fitna Update

[PRCalDude]

[quote]lixy wrote:
dk44 wrote:
For those who saw Fitna (seen it, can’t remember) Wilders never even says anything during the movie, right? Isn’t it all quotes from Muslims, or Koran passages?

That doesn’t sound right. I can distinctly remember bits written by him to push for his party’s agenda.

Shouldn’t muslims be pissed at themselves if it was offensive?

Do you ever watch the news? Ever notice that Muslims dying violently are mainly the result of “Muslims” killing them? How does that not spell “pissed at themselves” to you?

Taking things out of context is easy. Taking translated verses from a cryptic book out of context is even easier. Particularly so when there’s a highly mediatized group running around saying the same things.

Take the ingredients above. Mix thoroughly with logical fallacies. Sprinkle with scary music and unrelated footage. Then serve in an environment where immigrants are very poorly integrated, and where Hirsi Ali and Van Gogh are public figures. Hope that people don’t know any better.[/quote]

The mere existence of kuffar and unbelief is enough to instill hatred in Muslims, as the Qur’an clearly teaches. They don’t ‘hate’ because of what Wilders has said, they hate because they hate.

The fact that you support his prosecution should be very telling to the rest of the readers here, because this the plainly the enforcement of shari’ah law. Dhimmies living in Muslim societies are not allowed to say anything bad about Islam without forfeiting their dhimma. In Saudi Arabia, Jordan, or Pakistan, Wilders would be beheaded. The Muslims don’t have enough control to pull that off yet, so they’re taking what they can.

I think Hirsi Ali understands Islam perfectly well, given that she was a Muslim. She was even given a cliterectomy in her youth by her Muslim parents, which is a charming practice of many Muslim countries.

[PRCalDude]

[quote]ephrem wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
ephrem wrote:
“I believe we have been too tolerant of the intolerant. We should learn to become intolerant of the intolerant,” he said.

“People like Mohammed Bouyeri who killed Theo van Gogh, they should be arrested under administrative detention for the safety of Dutch families.” He has seen administrative detention without trial used in Israel, which he has visited on many occasions.

…he apparently said this in october 2007. The chances of him getting administrative detention through the senate are about as big as the dutch replacing their system of law with sharia law. Wilders has the habit of shouting the loudest and saying the least. Another quote from that article:

“Mr Wilders is a very gifted and talented politician… the problem was and is that he is a monomaniac… it’s He, Himself, Him”

…the modern day court jester…

Van Gogh, Fortuyn, Wilders, Ayaan Hirsi Ali all saying the same thing. All are either dead, run out of the country or awaiting trial. Jordan wants Wilders extradited so they can behead him.

Yep, you all have nothing to worry about up there, even though people are apparently leaving in droves:
http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/2044

…Fortuyn wasn’t killed by islamists. Wilders won’t be extradited, and Ayaan will say or do anything to get ahead in life and seeks revenge for what’s been done to her…

…the three top countries the dutch are emigrating to are:

1. Belgium
2. Germany
3. France

…and the main reason for emigrating? Population density.
[/quote]

Yeah, population density tends to increase when you import a bunch of Muslims with high birthrates that outbreed the native population. So do crime and ethnic diversity, which when combined, make the biggest reason for leaving. The “mentality of the people” tends to suffer also.

You’re right though, I’m sure there’s nothing wrong.

[ephrem]

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Yeah, population density tends to increase when you import a bunch of Muslims with high birthrates that outbreed the native population. So do crime and ethnic diversity, which when combined, make the biggest reason for leaving. The “mentality of the people” tends to suffer also.

You’re right though, I’m sure there’s nothing wrong.
[/quote]

…you have little to no insights into our culture, and are therefore unaware that the dutch have moved outside of their tiny country for a long time. It’s part of our culture. What’s the use of emigrating to neighbouring countries that share the same problems we have at home, if the intent is to escape those problems? Please answer me that, oh wise one…

[Sloth]

[quote]ephrem wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Yeah, population density tends to increase when you import a bunch of Muslims with high birthrates that outbreed the native population. So do crime and ethnic diversity, which when combined, make the biggest reason for leaving. The “mentality of the people” tends to suffer also.

You’re right though, I’m sure there’s nothing wrong.

…you have little to no insights into our culture, and are therefore unaware that the dutch have moved outside of their tiny country for a long time. It’s part of our culture. What’s the use of emigrating to neighbouring countries that share the same problems we have at home, if the intent is to escape those problems? Please answer me that, oh wise one…[/quote]

Your culture is to abandon ship?

[ephrem]

[quote]Sloth wrote:
ephrem wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Yeah, population density tends to increase when you import a bunch of Muslims with high birthrates that outbreed the native population. So do crime and ethnic diversity, which when combined, make the biggest reason for leaving. The “mentality of the people” tends to suffer also.

You’re right though, I’m sure there’s nothing wrong.

…you have little to no insights into our culture, and are therefore unaware that the dutch have moved outside of their tiny country for a long time. It’s part of our culture. What’s the use of emigrating to neighbouring countries that share the same problems we have at home, if the intent is to escape those problems? Please answer me that, oh wise one…

Your culture is to abandon ship?[/quote]

…you must suffer from reading comprehension problems, but it’s more likely you’re just being stupid on purpose. You’re not taking over from rainjack, are you?

[Sloth]

“…you have little to no insights into our culture, and are therefore unaware that the dutch have moved outside of their tiny country for a long time. It’s part of our culture.”

[PRCalDude]

[quote]ephrem wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Yeah, population density tends to increase when you import a bunch of Muslims with high birthrates that outbreed the native population. So do crime and ethnic diversity, which when combined, make the biggest reason for leaving. The “mentality of the people” tends to suffer also.

You’re right though, I’m sure there’s nothing wrong.

…you have little to no insights into our culture, and are therefore unaware that the dutch have moved outside of their tiny country for a long time. It’s part of our culture. What’s the use of emigrating to neighbouring countries that share the same problems we have at home, if the intent is to escape those problems? Please answer me that, oh wise one…[/quote]

The authors asked the same question:

Of course, one may wonder whether all those aspects the emigrants loath will be much better in their country of destination. At the time of the survey, we only asked about their expectations, and in this respect all emigrants believed the public space would be far better and the social problems less severe in their ?promised land?. It is striking that only 17% believed they would attain a higher income abroad and even 29% expected that their income would drop.

Apparently, higher income expectations were not factors in most of their decisions. More than likely, they’re thinking “anywhere but here.” The Muslims haven’t murdered any anti-immigration politicians in Germany lately.

Of course, as is usual in these discussions, I’m on the hook to explain everything and you have to explain nothing. You mentioned:

[quote]The biggest mistake the [liberal] government, at the end of the '80s and during the '90s, made was misunderestimating the inability of a backward mindset to adapt to a permissive and liberal culture without pressure from the host country to do so…

…this is why figures like Wilders are needed because they stirr things up, and maybe, maybe, muslims dare to look in the mirror he holds up and see that there’s no going back in time. To stay relevant, one has to evolve and grow and change. Holding on to ancient beliefs and traditions for the sake of identity at the cost of many, many lives cannot last…
[/quote]

I don’t know if these are your thoughts or a translation of someone else’s from an article, but “maybe, maybe muslims dare look in the mirror” doesn’t sound too optimistic to me, given their 1300 year history. In fact, none of that sounded at all optimistic to me regarding the Muslims. If these weren’t your thoughts and just some translation, fine. Apparently you don’t see things that way. But others do. If these were your thoughts, then my reading of the data and my take of the Wilders situation seems more accurate.

If the guy is a ‘monomaniac,’ he’s certainly stupid and not doing anything that will benefit his health in the long term. More likely to me, he’s one of the few Dutch politicians with balls these days and is trying to warn people of the problem.

If the courts convict him according to Islamic law (which is most certainly what’s being enforced here), you’ve got some huge problems on your hands.

[lixy]

[quote]Chushin wrote:
Um, ok. Thanks for the lecture. Now, turn down the “dumb” setting on your brain, and answer the question: Surely with all the “outspoken” Muslims found around the world, SOMEONE has committed the same “crime” (but against Christianity or Judaism) as, for example the Austrian woman. Were they, too, prosecuted? [/quote]

This is not “around the world”. As tough as it may be for you to swallow, different countries have different laws.

But if we’re talking about the Netherlands, then no. No prominent Muslim politician ever made a movie linking Christianity with murder and mayhem. Nor have they ever pushed for a ban on the Bible. There are cases of “hate speech” being prosecuted, but it’s hardly comparable to what we have with the present case.

Know nothing about the country.

That answers my question about your motives for trying to make this thread about Orion.

Just guessing that maybe the non-Muslims don’t bitch and moan and go to court when someone “insults” them.

Were Muslims behind this particular lawsuit? Please provide references.

As far as I know, the first person to take Wilders to court over “Fitna” was Danish cartoonist Kurt Westergaard (the guy behind the Mohamed-bomb-turban thingy).

Maybe, just maybe, if there were propaganda (I stand by this characterization) movies made about a religious minority in the Netherlands by a prominent politician, that their places of worship were subjected to numerous attacks by right-wing groups and that there was talk about their Scripture being banned, we’d be hearing some of it.

I have to disagree with Ephrem about the constructiveness of Wilders’ flick. The way I see it, it’s only a tool that extremists on both sides use. It’s not as much insulting as it is hateful and divisive.

[ephrem]

[quote]Sloth wrote:
“…you have little to no insights into our culture, and are therefore unaware that the dutch have moved outside of their tiny country for a long time. It’s part of our culture.” [/quote]

…Sloth, ‘a long time’ means for the better part of 400 years. That’s longer than your country exists. This is from the vox-link *dude posted:

I am a Dutch ‘mover’
On October 6th, 2008 norvo says:

I am a Dutch ‘mover’ (I moved 3 years ago from the Netherlands to Ireland) and find this study interesting, however I have talked to a large number Dutch people living abroad and also to a number of ‘dreamers’ still intending to leave and find that the main reason why people want to leave has nothing to do with the government but more with the possibility of gaining work experience, higher salaries, wanting to experience the world (why limit yourself to one little country while we are all world citizens - keep in mind that Dutch people always have moved around a lot to explore and experience life abroad, with globalization this has only become easier) and having international partners (as in girlfriend/boyfriend/husband/wife/etc).

Granted, the Dutch regulations are causing way too much red tape and this leads to dissatisfaction (esp. when having international partners). But most other countries have similar red tape. For example, it is unbelievable that within the EU the free market still does not apply to pension plans on a European scale (meaning I can not choose to get a German or Dutch pension plan from my employer while I work in Ireland, why not??). Same goes for health care, etc. I would love to see a free market in this on a European scale.

One more thing that needs to be considered is that the Dutch government is requiring people who move abroad for a few years to unregister as resident, while most other EU countries do not require this (this could mess up the stats a bit). This also makes it more difficult for people out who want to go abroad for just a few years to gain work experience, because why return to the Netherlands while it was almost impossible to grow any capital/social benefits/etc in the home country? It may become easier to stay where you are or just go to another country where there is less red tape or has something else appealing.

[ephrem]

PRCalDude wrote: Apparently, higher income expectations were not factors in most of their decisions. More than likely, they’re thinking “anywhere but here.” The Muslims haven’t murdered any anti-immigration politicians in Germany lately.

…i’ve come to expect dishonesty from you, and you don’t fail me. Muslims haven’t killed anti-immigration politicians in the Netherlands either. Your arguement fails…

(…) If these were your thoughts, then my reading of the data and my take of the Wilders situation seems more accurate.

…not really. It’s similar to this global economic recession were having. It’s true, there are pressing issues that need adressing before things get out of hand, but it isn’t as bad as the media and politicians make it out to be…

[quote]If the guy is a ‘monomaniac,’ he’s certainly stupid and not doing anything that will benefit his health in the long term. More likely to me, he’s one of the few Dutch politicians with balls these days and is trying to warn people of the problem.

If the courts convict him according to Islamic law (which is most certainly what’s being enforced here), you’ve got some huge problems on your hands.[/quote]

…are you implying that the dutch court is going to convict him according to Islamic law? Is that really what you are trying to say? Because if it is, i honestly question your sanity…

[ephrem]

lixy wrote:I have to disagree with Ephrem about the constructiveness of Wilders’ flick. The way I see it, it’s only a tool that extremists on both sides use. It’s not as much insulting as it is hateful and divisive.

…i don’t think the movie is constructive, but it’s a release of frustration for many people and a good way for Wilders to draw attention to himself. He ís a politician after all…

…how do you feel about ‘Submission’, the van Gogh and Hirsi Ali film?

…download: http://homepage.mac.com/keld_bach/FileSharing25.html

[orion]

[quote]Chushin wrote:
orion wrote:
Chushin wrote:
I’m genuinely curious to know if those who “purposefully insult” (or whatever the phrase was that Orion used) Judaism or Christianity in these countries get arrested and convicted, too.

Surely there must be Muslims “insulting just to insult” in these countries. What happens to them, I wonder?

First of all, you do not get arrested for such a triviality. Why would you detain someone who gets a slap on the wrist afterwards?

Huh? WTF? Your lawmaker might disagree, no?.

You can’t be this dumb, without trying, so I’ll ask again: Do Muslims get into legal problems for doing the same sorts of things this woman (and her son, according to you) did?

Please don’t tell me, “Oh, but Muslims would never do such a thing!”[/quote]

I have answered your question.

You do not get jailtime for this. Every sentence below 2 years practically automatically leads to a probation. She also was not detained before the trial because no one thought she would flee Austria just to avoid a verdict.

And no, Muslims usually do not get in legal problems because of this exact same paragraph.

There are two reasons:

This law is deeply un-Austrian. Not because we believe in freedom so much, but more because we believe in minding our own affairs. I know of no one who would run to the police if a Muslim said some stupid things.

This is important because our state prosecutors do not go after such sentences unless you force them to. The “live on tv” aspect practically did force their hand.

Then, if Muslims do something similar they practically always do more, they call for terrorist attacks or death to all Christians.

That however is far more serious, see my post above, and yes, they go to jail for that.

[Sloth]

Charged with “hate speech?” Yikes!

[lixy]

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…how do you feel about ‘Submission’, the van Gogh and Hirsi Ali film?
[/quote]

The term “caricatural” comes to mind, but it did have plenty of artistic value. It asked some tough questions about religious beliefs in general, and a certain interpretation of the Quran which has been gaining ground among Muslims in the Netherlands.

All in all, an above average kurz.

[Sifu]

Parliament Caves In Over Film Screening After Threats From Lord Ahmed

http://bnp.org.uk/2009/01/parliament-caves-in-over-film-screening-after-threats-from-lord-ahmed/

Another nail in the coffin of British free speech was well and truly hammered in today after it was revealed that a proposed screening of the film ?Fitna? in the House of Lords was called off after Muslim peer Lord Ahmed threatened to mobilise 10,000 Muslims if the film was shown.

A female member of the Lords had planned to invite the director of the film, Dutch politician Geert Wilders, to the conference room in the House of Lords, where his film ?Fitna? would be shown to invited colleagues and the issues the film raised debated.

?Fitna? is of course the short but powerful film that looks at the reality behind the establishment?s espousal of Islam as a ?religion of peace.? For daring to challenge current orthodoxy, Wilders is currently facing prison in Holland for his statements about Islam.

The screening of the film was due to take place this Thursday. And it was after the invitations were sent out that Lord Ahmed swung into action. He called a meeting with the government chief whip and the leader of the House, together with representatives of the Muslim Council of Britain and the British Muslim Forum.

At the meeting, Ahmed threatened to mobilise 10,000 Muslims to prevent Wilders from entering the House and said that he would take the organiser of the event to court.

Thanks to Ahmed?s astonishing bully-boy tactics, the decision was taken last Friday to cancel the screening of the film. Ahmed called his campaign of threats and intimidation ?a victory for the Muslim community.?

Despite seeming to advocate force to secure his political aims, Lord Ahmed is routinely touted as the face of moderate Islam in the UK. Born Nazir Ahmed in Pakistan, Labour member Lord Ahmed became the first Muslim life peer in 1998, where he took his oath on the Koran instead of the Bible. In 2007, upon hearing of the knighting of Salaman Rushdie, he responded by saying that he was appalled and claimed that Rushdie had ?blood on his hands.?

Ahmed?s fury that the House of Lords has been used to host an ?extremist? event is somewhat ironic as he himself courted controversy in 2005 over his choice of invited guest when he hosted a book launch by anti-Semitic author Israel Shamir.

Ahmed is also one of the founders of The World Forum, an organisation which was set up to ?promote world peace in the aftermath of 9/11 with an effort to build bridges of understanding between the Muslim world and the West by reviving a tradition of dialogue between people, cultures and civilizations based on tolerance.?

His notion of understanding and dialogue seem to differ sharply from this flowery prose. It seems that dialogue is to be suppressed if it falls foul of Ahmed?s narrow world view and any understanding seems to be on the proviso that people must understand that he can call in the heavy mob if his demands are not met.

[ephrem]

…the BNP Sifu? If you don’t mind affiliating yourself with people like that, where do you draw the line?

…don’t you think Wilders knew this would happen? The movie itself is the carrot, not the message. The responses from the muslim community, that proves the point in his mind. A community that never fails to be manipulated by a smart man, which is not suprising ofcourse, but that’s a different topic…

[Sifu]

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…the BNP Sifu? [/quote]

Yeah I know. The first time I ever heard of the BNP was around 1980 when I was a teenager because the investigative news program 60 minutes did a report. I must say they have really toned down their rhetoric from what I remember from that 60 minutes episode.

I didn’t pay any attention to them at all until their website became the most popular amongst the British political parties. Even then I didn’t read their website until recently when some of the other people on this board suggested I should. So now I do, so I can keep abreast of what they are saying.

I think it is smart to pay attention to what they are saying because they are gaining a lot of support. The mainstream media hasn’t been covering it but there have been several recent by-elections where significant Labour and Conservative leads over the BNP have been drastically reduced.

Labour is going to be finished after the general election next year. The Liberal Democrats are stagnant. The UK independence party is turning out to be a schill for draining off anti EU supporters from other parties.

What is left is the Tories who have become nulabour and aren’t going to do anything significant about immigration and the BNP.

[quote]
If you don’t mind affiliating yourself with people like that, where do you draw the line? [/quote]

I’m not affiliating with them. I merely cut and pasted something from their website that I saw was relevant to this discussion.

The BNP is a legal political party. Which is more than can be said for the Danish Hell’s Angles support group AK81. http://blog.balder.org/?p=483

These groups are gaining support because the PC politicians refuse to listen to the electorate that they are supposed to be working for.

If these groups are so bad perhaps the leftist politicians should stop driving people to join them. All they have to do is address the legitimate concerns of their people instead of insulting, degrading and ignoring them.

[quote]
…don’t you think Wilders knew this would happen? The movie itself is the carrot, not the message. The responses from the muslim community, that proves the point in his mind. A community that never fails to be manipulated by a smart man, which is not suprising ofcourse, but that’s a different topic… [/quote]

All Wilders has done is let people know that they are being mislead and lied to by their rulers. We are told that Islam supposed to be all about peace and understanding. What we are never told is that while Islam pays lip service to peace that is only so people who are not knowledgable about the religion let their guard down. The Muslims have a specific term for this they call it taqiyya.

What people are not being told about is the other side of Islam that is a supremacist ideology that seeks to enslave people in a theocratic dictatorship.

The truth is Alqaeda can look to the Koran, Surah and Hadith and find an ideology that fully legitimizes their behavior. They aren’t doing anything drastically different from what Mohammad and his Komeraden did.

The real reason why Wilders is being persecuted by the Dutch government is because they have participated in spreading taqiyya and Wilders has exposed them.