Fitna: The Movie

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
The Soviet Union did not stick to their sphere of interest, nor do the Islamists. Nor does China which ships weapons to the Sudanese to use in genocide. [/quote]

First of all, Islamism is an ideology, not some country.

Second, while the Soviets stuck their nose in plenty, they never - as far as I know - use their military to bomb or invade places that aren’t within their sphere of influence. Lastly, China sells weapons to Sudan. That is, they do give them away the way the US hands out all sorts of killing instruments to Israel, Egypt or the many others.

[quote]“supporting, organizing and financing Islamists may have played a role in the current global problem of radical religious terrorism”.

Of course it did. But we financed them to help drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan.

Which I do not feel was a bad thing. [/quote]

Ok. Let’s look at it from a purely pragmatical perspective. The Soviet Union was collapsing during the 80s, every intelligence service would have told you the same thing. How bad could it have been if they took over Afghanistan? The Afghan people (and their Mujahideen friends) would have resisted the occupation anyway. They may not have destroyed as many choppers, but they were going to keep shooting at the invader. Either way, the Soviet Union would have crumbled at the latest in the 90s. It was a certainty.

By gathering, organizing, supporting and financing the Islamists, the US (inadvertently?) unleashed upon the world this whole Al-Qaeda thing. And as a Muslim, I am not amused - at all! I feel that is not only a bad thing, but almost the absolute worst that could have happened.

Judging from your reply above, I’m not sure you would go back if given the chance.

[quote]Chushin was correct by saying “Do you realize how many people here on this very site agree with the basic idea that the US was wrong to go into Iraq, but who have an overwhelming, negative reaction to you and your holier-than-thou, black/white, self-righteous preaching?”

I should know, I am one of them.[/quote]

I hear you. I’m sure if we were talking face-to-face, we would have much better chances at highlighting our similar thoughts than our differences as is now happening. I believe this happens because extremists leaning towards your side jump into the mix, driving me to use some arguments which I’d normally abstain from. I mean, how do you expect me to keep a cool head when people post videos of Americans shooting at Iraqis and cheer at that? How am i supposed to behave myself when people demonize my religion and call me a terrorist-sympathizer, cyber-jihadist or some other idiocy?

You see, for a lot of people here, the idea that the US is a moral country (w/r/t foreign policy) is not even up for debate. They accept it as self-evident truth.

I’m trying to work on that and hopefully we can manage to have more constructive debates in the future.

So, to you, the problem is not due to US deciding to wage a war of aggression against Iraq, but it’s because of “bureaucratic b.s”? Am I reading this write?

You don’t have a problem with the principle of attacking countries on the other side of the planet that did nothing to you, but you have a problem with the way they went about it?

As much as I’m happy that Saddam is gone, you did nonetheless destroy a secular Arab state and are leaving it prey to the Wahabis and the Iranian brand of Shi’a from the West and East respectively. Again, as a Muslim, I am very pissed at that.

There’s an Imam waving a sword and urging people to kill in Wilders’ video. You may not be aware of it, but I recall watching his perfomance on TV when it happened. The guy is an Iraqi cleric who was fervently opposed to the invasion of his land by Americans and therefore called upon his compatriots to resist the occupation. How many Westerners caught that one in your opinion? How many were able to put his speech into its proper context?

Suppose you had a time machine, would you have supported the war on Iraq?

Last I checked, the majority of Americans would answer no the above. Yet, scary numbers in your government would still support it.

[quote]As much as you want to see Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt, and Iraq fail and join the ranks of Syria, Iran and Sudan, I hope for your sake you do not look back 20 years from now and say, “Damn, I wish the US had succeeded in Iraq because what we’ve got now is a thousand times worse than anything they could have made.”
[/quote]

“The US had succeeded in Iraq”. Here’s your problem right there. You take Iraqis out of the equation, as if they were insects, plants or part of the decor.

And it’s this “what we’ve got now is a thousand times worse than anything they could have made” reasoning that makes me lose my marbles. For you, the US has the right to make countries what it wants them to be. Sovereignty and self-determination go to hell!

So, for the sake of keeping this civil, I’ll stop right here.

122

[quote]Chushin wrote:
Interesting. Not sure how I feel about it, though. [/quote]

If I were you, I’ll start by questioning whether “their” interests coincide with yours. I mean, if they have to resort to propaganda or deceit, then surely, they are not serving you any more.

A democracy is pointless without a properly informed population.

Well, Islamic extremists don’t give two shits about the people or their opinions. Remember, Al-Zawahiri claims to have a duplex channel to God and receive his orders from upstairs (didn’t Bush say the same thing?).

The French. And trust me, if you must be occupied, you’d better hope it’s by the French. Their “equality” principle transcends citizenship. In other words, something like Gitmo would be illegal over there.

123

[quote]Chushin wrote:
lixy wrote:

Of course there were (and still are) worse regimes in the world. But they don’t go about invading countries half way across the world and call it “liberation”, “freedom” or some other buzzword.

Geez Lixy, when I read statements like this, I am certain that your emotions regarding the US make any objective, fair thought on your part impossible. That is just an absurd statement.

Until you get your anger under control, you will fail miserably at getting people to listen to you. [/quote]

My emotions regarding the US are shaped by the actions of the US. The American founding principles are the same ones I would use in my “dreamland” if I could build one. It is the way it conducts foreign policy that I have problems with. And I don’t think I’m the only one.

[quote]I say plenty about dictators and tyrants.

Not that I’ve heard.[/quote]

Pay more attention then.

[quote]But there is a fundamental difference between a country that sticks to its borders or represses its own people, with one that sends its military all over the world to bomb and invade others.

I will NEVER understand this perspective. It is the equivalent of saying that domestic violence is not as bad as a stranger beating up your wife.

Obviously, your word choice is meant to color the reader’s reaction. Let me restate it with a different goal in mind:

“But there is a fundamental difference between a despotic, autocratic police state that imprisons, tortures and murders its citizens out of greed, power hunger and sheer cruelty, vs. a democracy that sends its military to various countries to unseat the dictators, thugs and criminals that were never elected by their people in the first place.”

The point being that the source of killing and misery hardly matter, and one can present such arguments however one pleases
[/quote]

The way you rephrased it is textbook imperialism. Take a look at any of the old documents from Germany, Britain, Spain, France or the others. The rationale for aggression, invasion, pillaging or colonization has been the same for centuries.

And no, the source of killing and misery matters - A LOT! It’s what makes the difference between recognizing a people’s right to self-determination and the concept of protectorate, colony or whatever you want to call it. Your reaction towards the video of a cop tasering an innocent to death would be VERY different from that of a foreigner in uniform doing the same.

And I’m not even going into Abu Ghraib, Al-Mahmoudiya or the other nice things Americans have been doing in Iraq.

126

If I had a time machine I would still have opposed the war on Iraq, which I felt and still feel was a stupid move, yet, since the Bush Administration pays little heed to a bodybuilding internet site, they invaded anyhow. I just want our forces to succeed in Iraq to give the people there a chance to decide their own destiny, which they can do with a democracy, which was not in place before the invasion.

127

[quote]Chushin wrote:
…
[/quote]

I don’t know if you’re being deliberately obtuse or really do believe that there is no difference between a crime committed by a fellow countryman and one perpetrated by a foreigner in uniform, but either way, we’ll have to agree to disagree.

128

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
pat wrote:
Gkhan wrote:

That maybe, the Palestinians would have a nation if

  1. They concerned themselves with nation building rather than destruction.
  2. They would have tried to build a state and not stuffed their pockets and bought weapons.
  3. they stopped all terrorism against Israel and worried about themselves, then maybe they would not be living in an apartheid state.

Exactly…You know they could very well be collectively the stupidest people on earth.

But as individuals, particularly in the Arab lands in which many have been assimiliated, the Palestinians have become engineers, doctors…everything a nation could desire.

Where they are subjected to thuggery, particularly sponsored by their own countrymen, we see the thugs creating more hatred and misery…

[/quote]

The smart ones got the fuck out.

129

[quote]lixy wrote:
…I say plenty about dictators and tyrants…
[/quote]

Yes, you haven’t run across one that you don’t absolutely love.

130

[quote]lixy wrote:
“The US had succeeded in Iraq”. Here’s your problem right there. You take Iraqis out of the equation, as if they were insects, plants or part of the decor.

[/quote]

Don’t lump me in with any ugly American bullshit. It is your buddies, the suicide bombers, the freedom fighters, the terrorists, who think Iraqis are insects, plants, part of the decor or exist only to butcher to further their means.

If it were not for the “freedom fighters”, Iraq would be on the road to recovery and there would be thousands of people living who are dead thanks to these “freedom fighters”.

What bugs me is that you have said you would join these people and fight for them. So you can take your “Iraqis are insects” BS and stick it for as much as you give a shit about the fate of the common Iraqis.

Go ahead and cheer another suicide bombing for old times sakes if it makes you feel better and say some more bs about how bad America is cause your sorry excuse for freedom fighters are as much or worse than we could ever be.

131

French Muslim war graves defaced

[i]Vandals have desecrated 148 Muslim graves in France’s biggest WWI cemetery, officials have said.

A pig’s head was hung from one headstone and slogans insulting Islam and France’s Muslim justice minister were daubed on other graves.

[…]

In a similar attack in April 2007, Nazi slogans and swastikas were painted on about 50 graves in the Muslim section of the cemetery. Two men were sentenced to a year in prison for that act.
[/i]

What’s certain, is that this knucklehead’s film isn’t helping the world to become a better place.

132

[quote]lixy wrote:
What’s certain, is that this knucklehead’s film isn’t helping the world to become a better place.[/quote]

That sucks and all, but the people who did that, probably would have done so, movie or no movie.

133

[quote]lixy wrote:
French Muslim war graves defaced

[i]Vandals have desecrated 148 Muslim graves in France’s biggest WWI cemetery, officials have said.

A pig’s head was hung from one headstone and slogans insulting Islam and France’s Muslim justice minister were daubed on other graves.

[…]

In a similar attack in April 2007, Nazi slogans and swastikas were painted on about 50 graves in the Muslim section of the cemetery. Two men were sentenced to a year in prison for that act.
[/i]

What’s certain, is that this knucklehead’s film isn’t helping the world to become a better place.[/quote]

Geert Wilders just the messenger. Besides the pithy complaint about copyright infringements what is your problem his criticism of radical islam?

134

[quote]lixy wrote:
French Muslim war graves defaced

[i]Vandals have desecrated 148 Muslim graves in France’s biggest WWI cemetery, officials have said.

A pig’s head was hung from one headstone and slogans insulting Islam and France’s Muslim justice minister were daubed on other graves.

[…]

In a similar attack in April 2007, Nazi slogans and swastikas were painted on about 50 graves in the Muslim section of the cemetery. Two men were sentenced to a year in prison for that act.
[/i]

What’s certain, is that this knucklehead’s film isn’t helping the world to become a better place.[/quote]

What do the actions of some Frenchmen have to do with the truth or falsehood of “Fitna?” For all you know, those graves were defaced because of the incessant Muslim rioting, raping, and car burning in the banleius and elsewhere.

135

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
lixy wrote:
What’s certain, is that this knucklehead’s film isn’t helping the world to become a better place.

That sucks and all, but the people who did that, probably would have done so, movie or no movie.[/quote]

Maybe so. But I can’t help but think that Wilders’ amalgam between Muslims and Islamists may contribute in some way to fueling these actions you describe as sucky.

Let’s face it, Islam and Muslims are having a very bad rep ever since 9/11 and a certain trend is emerging in mosques and graves vandalism. As I see it, it’s only going downhill from here. The point I was making by posting that story here is that Wilders isn’t helping things out. Read my comment again if you must.

136

[quote]lixy wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
lixy wrote:
What’s certain, is that this knucklehead’s film isn’t helping the world to become a better place.

That sucks and all, but the people who did that, probably would have done so, movie or no movie.

Maybe so. But I can’t help but think that Wilders’ amalgam between Muslims and Islamists may contribute in some way to fueling these actions you describe as sucky.

Let’s face it, Islam and Muslims are having a very bad rep ever since 9/11 and a certain trend is emerging in mosques and graves vandalism. As I see it, it’s only going downhill from here. The point I was making by posting that story here is that Wilders isn’t helping things out. Read my comment again if you must.[/quote]

The “amalgam” is created by the Muslims themselves. They’re carrying out the mandates of Surahs 9:5 and 9:29, as understood in at least every school of Sunni fiqh. Don’t blame us for calling reality what it is.

137

[quote]lixy wrote:

Let’s face it, Islam and Muslims are having a very bad rep ever since 9/11 and a certain trend is emerging in mosques and graves vandalism. As I see it, it’s only going downhill from here. The point I was making by posting that story here is that Wilders isn’t helping things out. Read my comment again if you must.[/quote]

Gee I wonder why? Perhaps the preponderance of violence perpetrated by muslims, or is it all just propaganda?

Islam is in trouble…There is no doubt about it. Don’t blame a single film for portraying it one way or another. Like it or not, when people hear about any reference to islam they think the way that movie portrays them. Violence, blood, beheadings, etc. Hell, that’s what I think of. People are sick of the bullshit, and they are sick of being told that it’s a peaceful religion with just a few wackos. Those few wackos do a surprising amount of damage and kill a hell of a lot of people for nothing, because they were there, that’s all. Greater islam either says nothing or praises this behaviour and that pisses people off a lot more than just the acts themselves. If at least the violent acts were condemned, then people would not becoming increasingly disgusted with islam, but they are praised.

Nobody, but muslims have put these images in the heads of the rest of the world. The film is a reaction rather than a cause.

138

[quote]pat wrote:
Don’t blame a single film for portraying it one way or another. [/quote]

Read again buddy. I didn’t blame a single film. I wrote that Wilders’ effort isn’t helping things one bit. And like I said earlier in the thread, “Fitna” will only have an effect on the misinformed or intellectually challenged.

But tell me, do you think that video achieved anything but promote and exacerbate hatred towards Muslims and Islam? Do you find its portraying of 1.3 billion people as fair? Is it anything more than fuel on an already raging fire? Is its essence any different from Al-Qaeda’s message?

140

[quote]lixy wrote:
pat wrote:
Don’t blame a single film for portraying it one way or another.

Read again buddy. I didn’t blame a single film. I wrote that Wilders’ effort isn’t helping things one bit. And like I said earlier in the thread, “Fitna” will only have an effect on the misinformed or intellectually challenged.

But tell me, do you think that video achieved anything but promote and exacerbate hatred towards Muslims and Islam? Do you find its portraying of 1.3 billion people as fair? Is it anything more than fuel on an already raging fire? Is its essence any different from Al-Qaeda’s message?[/quote]

I don’t think that movie achieved anything at all. Muslims themselves have made clear their message with out any help at all. The rest is simply reactionary.
All the movie did was rouse up the muslims to call for death, which actually serves to prove the creator’s point. The whole thing can be summarized in one sentence. ‘Death to those who say islam is violent.’

You can’t blame the rest of the world for fearing and hating muslims, just look how they act. They do hate and violence to all that do not believe as they do. If they do not hate with violence they hate with words, but hate is the central theme. What the fuck do you expect? Open arms?
Islam must reform or self destruct, those are the only choices.