[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
From that source ‘He stressed, however, that Islam did not allow the killing of innocent
civilians and children but only invaders and aggressors.’
“Hate filled.” Now I’m 100% certain you’re a Muslim yourself.
“Innocent” is defined differently in Islam than it is in the West. Only Muslims are innocent in Islam. Everyone in Dar al-Harb is guilty. This is what Tantawi is saying. He’s speaking out of both sides of his mouth. [/quote]
As I’ve said before, I’m not a Muslim. Believe whatever you want though, that’s your modus operandi anyway.
As for the different definition of innocent, that’s interesting because whenever there’s an article about specific situations, he condemns attacks against American civilians and Israeli civilians, just to give the examples in the articles I posted above. And yet here you are, inventing your own definition for him, putting words in his mouth, and offering nothing to back up your points. Not to mention ignoring how your hateful websites are lying about their news and sources.
[quote]will to power wrote:
From that source ‘He stressed, however, that Islam did not allow the killing of innocent civilians and children but only invaders and aggressors.’
[/quote]
Which is probably why Lixy has so many standards to hate the US while giving worse nations a pass.
ie “A government can kill it’s own people, it is not as bad as a country invading another country and killing people.”
You can see how the warped belief system fits with the above quote.
As far as the quote itself goes, Islam does not allow the killing of MUSLIM innocent civilians and children or ALL innocent women and children?
Easy way to get around this, make your enemies non-muslim in your eyes, then you can kill them. Al Qaeda does this very thing.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
will to power wrote:
From that source ‘He stressed, however, that Islam did not allow the killing of innocent civilians and children but only invaders and aggressors.’
Which is probably why Lixy has so many standards to hate the US while giving worse nations a pass.
ie “A government can kill it’s own people, it is not as bad as a country invading another country and killing people.”
You can see how the warped belief system fits with the above quote.
[/quote]
You’ll have to explain that to me further. How are a governments own people not innocent, and how are they invaders or aggressors? Or are you having a go at what lixy said and I’m taking you too literally?
It means all non-combatants, in several of the articles he specifies Israeli and US civilians when talking in context.
Except it’s not relevant, because despite what some bigots think the west did not invent the idea of innocents applying to the people of other ethnicities or your enemies.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
What this particular person teaches may or may not be very important.
But I find it interesting that when he is reported to act or speak as a moderate, there is also typically a note stating that he came under fire from (or has been disregarded by) other Muslims for doing so.
So, he either is NOT a moderate, or, if he is, he gets flack from other Muslims for being one.
Seems the conclusion to be drawn is the same in either case: There is a real element of hatred and violence in today’s Islam.
[/quote]
From what I’m gathering [this is the first time I’ve looked into him], he is a moderate taking flak from other leaders in particular, basically those who are not moderate. Many of his opinions that I’ve linked to here represent what Arabs and Muslims I have known believe, which makes sense then that he is one of the top ranking Imams in Sunni Islam.
From what I’m gathering [this is the first time I’ve looked into him], he is a moderate taking flak from other leaders in particular, basically those who are not moderate. Many of his opinions that I’ve linked to here represent what Arabs and Muslims I have known believe, which makes sense then that he is one of the top ranking Imams in Sunni Islam.
I hear you. But do you see my point? There seems some real resistance (at least here, and perhaps in the Muslim community at-large) to acknowledging that there is a violent, closed-minded, hateful “wing” of Islam that yields significant influence.
The fact that you note “he is a moderate taking flak from other leaders in particular” is proof that this “wing” exists, and is NOT insignificant.
People like your buddy Lixy need to stop minimizing this problem (“It’s not REAL Islam.” But it seems quite real to it’s victims!!)
Saying “Muslims don’t (fill in the blank)” is not entirely true. Many (enough to have an impact on world events) do!
[/quote]
I assure you, I know what you’re talking about, and it’s half the reason I’ve put effort into debunking PR’s propaganda, because Imam’s like this one should be supported both internally and externally in their efforts to fight spin off, violent philosophies.
As for the whole real Islam thing, of course lixy feels that way! It is his religion, and to him these people are not a part of the true way of it but are essentially insulting Islam by associating with it. I don’t think he has said they are not a problem, just that they are wrong about the message of Islam. I know if I was Muslim I would be offended at the idea that they are representative of true Islam, just like I am offended when certain bigots try to make out that they represent all Arabs (an even more ridiculous claim).
[quote]Chushin wrote:
will to power wrote:
As for the whole real Islam thing, of course lixy feels that way! It is his religion, and to him these people are not a part of the true way of it but are essentially insulting Islam by associating with it. I don’t think he has said they are not a problem, just that they are wrong about the message of Islam. I know if I was Muslim I would be offended at the idea that they are representative of true Islam, just like I am offended when certain bigots try to make out that they represent all Arabs (an even more ridiculous claim).
I think you’re missing my point. Attitudes like Lixy’s just fuel more anger on the side of non-Muslims. Your “I assure you, I know what you’re talking about,” for instance, helps me to feel that we are, in the end, on the same side. His “You’re all just a bunch of bigots / That has nothing to do with Islam / It’s an insignificant few bad apples” attitude amounts to little more than denial that Islam has a SERIOUS problem on it’s hands.
Something on the order of “Yes, it’s a real problem in my religion and something that we’re all working to eradicate, but it makes us nuts, too. We are suffering as well from it” would be a much more productive approach. (Edit: Periodic updates of “efforts” would help, BTW.)
If he’s going to put himself in the middle of a bunch non Muslims to “educate” the great “unwashed” masses, he ought to be able to deal with the heat better than some high school kid. What does he expect when he comes here, given world events, hugs and kisses?
And incidentally, constantly criticizing the US at the same time is about the WORST way to get people to listen to you talk about Islam. Hell, he just comes off as another bigoted, America-hating, middle-eastern Muslim.
[/quote]
Hey, I’m just trying to help you understand why he chooses to phrase things the way he does. Maybe it would be more productive for you to share this with lixy directly?
That sort of thing mostly makes it to the media when it’s topical, but when I come across things, I might throw them up. I don’t really want to become a propaganda machine though, so don’t expect an onrush of articles or anything.
[quote]will to power wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
MOst of the linked sources were to MEMRI, like this one:
The original source sites for this is the Khaleej times, so I went to their site and, shocking, there’s no such article. [/quote]
One of the first things I was greeted by here on T-Nation, is a MEMRI translation of some forum where the author of the thread allegedly incites Muslims to wage a so-called “cyber-jihad”. I found the content pretty risible and wanted to see the original source to establish for myself if it was distorted facts or an accurate report. Not surprisingly, the page returned a 404 yet again.
For the lazy:
"Shaykh Tantawi has stated that the Koran “specifically forbids the kinds of things the Taliban and al-Qaida are guilty of,” Pitts said.
Shaykh Tantawi, Pitts continued, has said that the “jihad” Usama bin Laden has called for against America “is invalid and not binding on Muslims.”
Pitts quoted the Grand Shaykh as saying, “Islam rejects all of these acts.” The Shaykh added that terrorism is un-Islamic, Pitts said.
“Killing innocent civilians is a horrific, hideous act that no religion can approve,” Pitts quoted the religious leader as saying."[/quote]
No, this doesn’t help at all. Where is Pitts getting his information? What is his source, or are we to believe the same government (ours) that told us Islam is a “religion of peace?”
That’s because it was on their front page. Check the archives by doing a simple search.
Why, when I look at page 599 of the Reliance of the Traveler, does it define jihad as warfare for the spread of religion, and declare in mandatory for all able bodied males on the next page?
My mistake, I was familiar with khaleej times but not al khaleej so I jumped to it. I checked that site too, and found nothing.
I’ve also just straight up never seen a news article about Tantawi, one of the top guys in Sunni Islam, calling for beheadings. You’d think it would hit more than just a single Emirati paper.
Yes, there must be a conspiracy between your government and every news outlet in the world including Israeli newspapers to make Tantawi look like he’s against the killing of innocent civilians.
I’ve provided you with several news sources and a source from your government showing Tantawi is against the killing of innocents, and every site you saw leads to a dead end. If you want to keep claiming he says what you’re saying, show me something at least as credible as your government.
[quote]lixy wrote:
will to power wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
MOst of the linked sources were to MEMRI, like this one:
The original source sites for this is the Khaleej times, so I went to their site and, shocking, there’s no such article.
One of the first things I was greeted by here on T-Nation, is a MEMRI translation of some forum where the author of the thread allegedly incites Muslims to wage a so-called “cyber-jihad”. I found the content pretty risible and wanted to see the original source to establish for myself if it was distorted facts or an accurate report. Not surprisingly, the page returned a 404 yet again.[/quote]
[quote]Chushin wrote:
I think you’re missing my point. Attitudes like Lixy’s just fuel more anger on the side of non-Muslims. Your “I assure you, I know what you’re talking about,” for instance, helps me to feel that we are, in the end, on the same side. His “You’re all just a bunch of bigots / That has nothing to do with Islam / It’s an insignificant few bad apples” attitude amounts to little more than denial that Islam has a SERIOUS problem on it’s hands. [/quote]
When did I ever call you a bigot? Making stuff up now?
I do not think Islam (as in, the religion I practice) has “a SERIOUS problem”. Otherwise, I would go find a better one/no religion.
Islam is growing by leaps and bounds and there’s no end in sight to that growth. So, for a religion you view as having “a SERIOUS problem on it’s hands [sic]”, it’s fairly (nay, extremely!) healthy.
From where I stand, as long as copies of the Quran and the Hadith are publicly available (good luck censoring anything in the communication age!) and people with brains know Arabic, Islam is not going anywhere.
Sure, some interpretations of the message, like that of Al-Qaeda or the Al-Sauds will wither. In fact, any dictatorial form is in for a world of hurt as people get more and more educated. You can’t keep claiming that God chose to put you on a throne when the religion you claim to follow is diametrically opposed to the concept. You can’t reasonably expect those to strive that much.
Yes, Muslims around the world are suffering plenty from the criminals and other idiots that claim to be following Islam. And I don’t think I need to tell you about where I was when the Casablanca attacks happened (and since you claim to be following the news, you must know that the convicts in the affair escaped from jail earlier this week).
I have never, as far as I can recall, made a distinction between the Muslims or non-Muslims on this forum. Just like I will never judge HH because he’s a Jew or Sloth because he’s Christian. I have never taken this attitude you allege ‘to “educate” the great “unwashed” masses’. I argue points with people regardless of their faith, sex, color or nationality. That is, with the ones that can extend the courtesy of assuming good faith.
The rest can kiss my shiny fleshy ass, be they Hindus, Muslims or Zoroastrians.
I expect a debate. Nothing more, nothing less.
Geez…how many times do I have to tell you that Morocco is NOT anywhere close to the Middle-East. I criticize plenty of countries. I fixate on the US because, on the grand scheme of things, they seem to be the most determined to slaughtering people all over the world. Plus, the fact that an openly belligerent and globally hegemonic country has the ability to annihilate the planet many times over makes me nervous.
You’d have point if I were talking about how great my country is and how my culture should take over the world. But I don’t. I shit on it constantly because it’s the only way to get it to move forward. And it is precisely because I believe in the original American ideals that I’m pissed to see the USA turned into a global empire. Had Montesquieu, Franklin, Locke or any other seen how their ideas turned out, they’ll be spinning in their graves. The US turned into a flabby nation hellbent on world domination and where power is taken away from citizens in favor of lobbies. The remarkable thing though, is that a non-negligible portion of the country, albeit educated, isn’t even realizing that they’re fed information by people who don’t have their best interests in mind. And that is quite scary to say the least.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
will to power wrote:
(Edit: Periodic updates of “efforts” would help, BTW.)
That sort of thing mostly makes it to the media when it’s topical, but when I come across things, I might throw them up. I don’t really want to become a propaganda machine though, so don’t expect an onrush of articles or anything.
Understood. And again, you seem like a pretty reasonable person. Perhaps we’ll talk more…
To be honest, I’m not all that interested in the “efforts” at this point anyway. I understand how “unenlightened” this will sound, but I’m so fed up with Lixy and his broken record soundtrack that I’m not really willing to make the effort to try to see things as “fairly” or “objectively” as possible.
Chalk one up for Qom Lixy…
[/quote]
Just so long as you remember that most of the people on the other side are just regular folks who want to live their lives, just like everywhere else in the world. A lot of people tend to forget that when they’ve been harmed.
A bit different, but I go through phases of following the news too, either reading and watching all I can about everything or outright avoiding it when it gets too depressing.