First Muslim Migrants

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
122

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Mr. Zero wrote:

However, yes, if one were living under a country that is actually applying Islamic law and he (Muslim) openly commits disbelief and persists on it i.e. doesn’t repent, then his penalty is death.

[/quote]

Finally.

Glad we got that out of the way.

Now…is a country that actually applies Islamic law ideal? If not, why not? Why would Muslims not ultimately desire a country that applies Islamic law?
[/quote]

Yes, it’s ideal… Many muslims don’t want the country to apply islamic law simply because of their own worldly benefit and desires. Most muslims today are just so weak in faith - so, for example, the guy down the street selling cigarettes in his store would be forbidden from selling them which means he loses money.

125

[quote]pushharder wrote:
This was a very healthy discussion with Meester Zero. It certainly now appears that many of non-Muslims’ concerns and fears are clearly warranted. “Reasonable Muslims” like himself believe, by his own admission, that ideally, unbelievers in Muslim countries ruled by Sharia law should be beheaded.

And certainly with converting others to Islam being a basic doctrinal tenet it seems that the formation of Muslim nations is a worthy goal for Muslims.

Zero, you worked your own self into this corner of the box.[/quote]

What do you mean worked my self into a corner??

And no, not unbelievers, MUSLIMS that openly apostated and refuse to repent, then yes, like I said before the penalty is death.

126

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Mr. Zero wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Mr. Zero wrote:

However, yes, if one were living under a country that is actually applying Islamic law and he (Muslim) openly commits disbelief and persists on it i.e. doesn’t repent, then his penalty is death.

[/quote]

Finally.

Glad we got that out of the way.

Now…is a country that actually applies Islamic law ideal? If not, why not? Why would Muslims not ultimately desire a country that applies Islamic law?
[/quote]

Yes, it’s ideal… Many muslims don’t want the country to apply islamic law simply because of their own worldly benefit and desires. Most muslims today are just so weak in faith - so, for example, the guy down the street selling cigarettes in his store would be forbidden from selling them which means he loses money.[/quote]

So when we finally connect all of your dots, based on your personal outlook and we assume the outlook of millions of other Muslims, we come to the inescapable conclusion that IDEALLY unbelievers should pay with their lives in Muslim countries. They literally should lose their heads should they openly place their faith in Jesus Christ for example.

We gotcha now. By that I mean we understand completely. Thanks.[/quote]

Muslims too openly place their faith in Jesus son of Mary pbuh. We just don’t openly worship him or any other of the great prophets.

Jesus said to him, “Go away, Satan! Scripture says, ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’” Mathew 4:10

And indeed We sent to every nation a Noble Messenger (proclaiming) that “Worship only Allah and beware of the devil”; therefore Allah guided some of them, and error proved true upon some of them; therefore travel in the land and see what sort of fate befell the deniers. Quran 16:36

[Jesus said], “And indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him alone. That is a straight path.” Quran 19:36

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, Of all the commandments, which is the most important?
29 The most important one, answered Jesus, “is this: Hear, O Israel: THE LORD OUR GOD, THE LORD IS ONE.” Mark 12:28-29

Jesus answered him, "It is written, ‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND SERVE HIM ONLY.’
Luke 4:8

And your god is one God. There is no deity [worthy of worship] except Him, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. Quran 2:163

Say (O Muhammed): He is Allah, the One; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. Quran 112:1-4

127

Jesus said to him “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” - John 14:6

Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved - Acts 4:12

128

1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

  1. Blessed are ye, when (men) shall revile you, and persecute (you), and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Matthew 5:1-11

130

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Jesus said to him “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” - John 14:6

Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved - Acts 4:12[/quote]

Yes, anyone who followed Jesus pbuh during that time, as he was their prophet, and did good deeds, no doubt that they will go to heaven, and be near the Lord of the universe.The companions of Jesus pbuh are mentioned in many areas of the Quran.

This is the same message all the prophets had, Moses had for his people, Abraham, Jesus for the children of Israel, and lastly Muhaammed, peace and blessings be upon them all. Worship God alone.

As it says in the Quran, God sends a messenger to every people, and the only way to God is through the messenger.

131

[quote]Mr. Zero wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Jesus said to him “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” - John 14:6

Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved - Acts 4:12[/quote]

Yes, anyone who followed Jesus pbuh during that time, as he was their prophet, and did good deeds, no doubt that they will go to heaven, and be near the Lord of the universe. The companions of Jesus pbuh are mentioned in many areas of the Quran.

This is the same message all the prophets had, Moses had for his people, Abraham, Jesus for the children of Israel, and lastly Muhaammed, peace and blessings be upon them all. Worship God alone.

As it says in the Quran, God sends a messenger to every people, and the only way to God is through the messenger.[/quote]

132

Mr. Zero

Was the taliban state in Afghanistan your idea of an ideal Muslim country?

If so, why would Bin Laden be considered a devil if he and his organization holds the same beliefs?

If Bin Laden was a devil, why did the taliban give him refuge as a muslim? Wouldn’t they know he was evil?

133

[quote]Mr. Zero wrote:

Yes, anyone who followed Jesus pbuh during that time

[/quote]

Incorrect.

‘Therefore go and make disciples in all the nations, baptising them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and then teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you; and be sure of this- that I am with you always, even to the end of the world’ - Matthew 28:19-20

134

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Mr. Zero wrote:
And no, not unbelievers, MUSLIMS that openly apostated and refuse to repent, then yes, like I said before the penalty is death.
[/quote]

So, Muslims – even if only by birth into a Muslim family – who have serious doubts, are to be killed.

The “lucky” non-Muslims are forbidden from openly worshipping.

That sounds wonderful for Muslims, and quite unfair and oppressive for anyone else who lives there.

Are Muslims so threatened by other beliefs and / or non-belief?

If one truly believed and trusted in the righteousness of one’s religion, one would have no need for such coercion and violence.

[/quote]

Not threatened at all. But the worst thing that can happen to someone is he dies as a polytheist. That means he will never be accepted to enter paradise.
“Verily, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives other than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin.” 4:48
So, Islam strictly forbids anything that may lead to polytheism. The death penalty acts as a deterrent. It is a mercy, because it will deter monotheists from committing polytheism and may in turn save them from hell.

135

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Mr. Zero wrote:

Yes, anyone who followed Jesus pbuh during that time

[/quote]

Incorrect.

‘Therefore go and make disciples in all the nations, baptising them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and then teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you; and be sure of this- that I am with you always, even to the end of the world’ - Matthew 28:19-20
[/quote]

Then why does it say in many places in the bible that Jesus was sent to the “lost sheep of Israel”

I don’t understand, I believe in what was revealed to Abraham, and Issac, and Jacob, and Moses, and Jesus, and Muhammed, and all the prophets of God. Do you?

136

[quote]Mr. Zero wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Mr. Zero wrote:

Yes, anyone who followed Jesus pbuh during that time

[/quote]

Incorrect.

‘Therefore go and make disciples in all the nations, baptising them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and then teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you; and be sure of this- that I am with you always, even to the end of the world’ - Matthew 28:19-20
[/quote]

Then why does it say in many places in the bible that Jesus was sent to the “lost sheep of Israel”

I don’t understand, I believe in what was revealed to Abraham, and Issac, and Jacob, and Moses, and Jesus, and Muhammed, and all the prophets of God. Do you?[/quote]

‘Who are the lost sheep?’:

137

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Mr. Zero

Was the taliban state in Afghanistan your idea of an ideal Muslim country?

If so, why would Bin Laden be considered a devil if he and his organization holds the same beliefs?

If Bin Laden was a devil, why did the taliban give him refuge as a muslim? Wouldn’t they know he was evil?

[/quote]

Absolutely not ideal. Like I stated before, and posted videos of scholars, Bin laden and anyone who follows his way of thinking is opposing the Quran and Sunnah. Just like the scholars refuted Anwar Awlaki.

…They gave him refuge because he and his crew believe that they were on the truth. No one who is upon the path of misguidance, will say “Wow. we’re really evil.” They thought they were doing good.

And whosoever turns away (blinds himself) from the remembrance of the Most Beneficent (Allah) (i.e. this Qur’an and worship of Allah), We appoint for him Shaitan (Satan - devil) to be a an intimate companion to him. AND VERILY, THEY (Satans / devils) HINDER THEM FROM THE PATH (of Allah), BUT THEY THINK THAT THEY ARE GUIDED ARIGHT! Till, when he comes to Us, (he is resurrected) he says to his devil companion “Would that between me and you were the distance of the two easts (or the east and west)” a worst companion indeed!It will profit you not this Day as you did wrong, (and) that you will be sharers in the punishment! Can you (O Muhammad ) make the deaf to hear, or can you guide the blind or him who is in manifest error?
[surah Zukhruf]

139

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Mr. Zero wrote:
The death penalty acts as a deterrent. It is a mercy, because it will deter monotheists from committing polytheism and may in turn save them from hell. [/quote]

Wow.

And I do mean “WOW!”

The death penalty for aposty is a form of “mercy.”

Now I’ve heard it all.

[/quote]

Ah, dont worry.

We will undermine him with booze, cheeseburgers and pornography.

140

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Mr. Zero wrote:
The death penalty acts as a deterrent. It is a mercy, because it will deter monotheists from committing polytheism and may in turn save them from hell. [/quote]

Wow.

And I do mean “WOW!”

The death penalty for aposty is a form of “mercy.”

Now I’ve heard it all.

Edit: My fear of Islam will stay right where it is – if anything, strengthened by this conversation.

Thank you for your honesty.

[/quote]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW!!!

haha