I have been reading up for my own good and decided I will try and avoid the arimidex. I do not like the idea of my joints suffering from the low estrogen as I have experienced a shoulder injury before and it kept me from training for over a year.
If I do notice the first signs of tenderness of the nipple area and the start of a lump I will use nolvadex instead. Now I know that people say that once gyno has started then its too late to treat it with nolva but I also understand that at an early stage of noticing a lump that it is not actually gyno yet. If anyone can confirm this that would be great.
I am also bearing in mind that dbol coverts to a particularly nasty form of estrogen but I did not get any more detail than this during my research. Should I be extra worried? I did once get a lump from using tribulus so I would say I would be prone to this kind of thing.
If I do introduce the nolvadex several weeks before the end of my last test shot, will it lose its effectiveness when I need it at the end of the cycle for PCT? I was hoping to make PCT as smooth as possible and would consider HCG.
Finally, at what stage should I expect to suffer a dip in sex drive? Should it just be at the start of PCT as I am running test? I don’t really care about it as long as it comes back again quickly when it should do during PCT.
Well those were just a few thoughts and concerns I would like to be prepared for in the coming weeks. If someone can help guide my thinking I would be grateful. Cheers!
[quote]ballbagbaggins wrote:
Hi Game Changer, the logic behind reducing the dose on non training days was that the key metabolic times are before and after training so I figured take more on training days. I notice when pulsing that people tend to only take their dose before and after training on training days so I borrowed that idea. Taking slightly less will also put less stress on my liver. If this is a bad idea I can easily up the dose to 3 every day though.[/quote]
No offense at all but you borrowed a dumb idea.
Pulsing is retarded. The AM forum (I think that’s where pulsing started) is one of the worst resources for PED use on the web.
Not using the drug on your off days wont give your liver time to heal. A highly anabolic environment is very valuable on non training days. Dont skip days. [/quote]
I agree, all that skipping days of lowering dose on non training days will do is cause hormonal imbalances, keep it simple
[quote]ballbagbaggins wrote:
They likened it to drinking alcohol and binging at the weekend. They said the liver was better off binging then recovering than perhaps what an alcoholic would do and drink a steady amount every day.
[/quote]
Likening AS-usage to binge drinking. What an astute analogy…
Make sure you eat beforehand and drinking plenty of water- oh and don’t forget: cardio before weights- you’ll never lift big plates; lifting before running- now you look stunning.
I just do 5-10 mins cardio before my warm up sets to get the blood pumping. I don’t want to drain my energy as you quite rightly say. As for cardio at the end, I find that I have always had better results cutting this out and just get on with recovery. I do realise the importance of some cardio with all my new additional bodyweight that will grow in the coming weeks but I don’t know where else I can fit it in. I would like my rest days to be dedicated to resting. They do say weight training is a truer form of cardio than getting on a treadmill anyway but I can still understand the value of the body getting used to supporting its own weight which is going to be a different stimulus.
I have been doing some research on running an otc AI during cycle and from what I have read people are saying it is a good idea. I would like to run that past people here given my circumstances on cycle. Basically if after 4 weeks I am starting to notice the first signs of gyno once the dbol is finished, would it be a good idea to introduce the otc AI here to block some of the estrogen amongst the other intended benefits. It would be the effect on estrogen I would be most interested in. This is a question out of curiosity more than anything so I can establish to my own satisfaction how this would work. Thanks in advance if anyone can help.
I will be posting more updates on the progress of the cycle soon but for now I can confirm that strength gains have really kicked in and all major lifts are up 10Kg. Really starting to enjoy the effects now. More to follow on saturday…
I disagree, I think it’s fine to pulse orals. There is less liver damage because less of the drug is used per week. Instead, it’s all used at a time when it’ll be most helpful (for pumps, not necessarily growth). I also think that taking days off helps the liver. The half life of most orals is about 12 hours, so some stays in the system if you take it 3x per week. But, I think taking days off helps the liver produce more enzymes.
I’m not sure about the metabolic process that causes liver damage with oral steroid use. I know with tylenol there’s a threshold dose to cause liver damage. At a certain point all of a certain enzyme is being used, and as a result a toxic byproduct builds up.
This is only okay if you’re also taking a baseline test dose. Estrogen might peak, but I don’t think that’s awful. It can be helpful if you know what you’re doing.
I disagree, I think it’s fine to pulse orals. There is less liver damage because less of the drug is used per week. Instead, it’s all used at a time when it’ll be most helpful (for pumps, not necessarily growth). I also think that taking days off helps the liver. The half life of most orals is about 12 hours, so some stays in the system if you take it 3x per week. But, I think taking days off helps the liver produce more enzymes.
I’m not sure about the metabolic process that causes liver damage with oral steroid use. I know with tylenol there’s a threshold dose to cause liver damage. At a certain point all of a certain enzyme is being used, and as a result a toxic byproduct builds up.
This is only okay if you’re also taking a baseline test dose. Estrogen might peak, but I don’t think that’s awful. It can be helpful if you know what you’re doing.
[quote]anime wrote:
I disagree, I think it’s fine to pulse orals. There is less liver damage because less of the drug is used per week. Instead, it’s all used at a time when it’ll be most helpful (for pumps, not necessarily growth). I also think that taking days off helps the liver. The half life of most orals is about 12 hours, so some stays in the system if you take it 3x per week. But, I think taking days off helps the liver produce more enzymes.
I’m not sure about the metabolic process that causes liver damage with oral steroid use. .[/quote]
How do you reconcile the paragraph and that sentence.
A smaller amount of dbol taken per week = less liver damage (35mg* 3 = 105mg, 20mg*7 = 140mg: 40% difference). Also, I believe anabolic steroids cause liver damage similar to the way tylenol causes liver damage. However, I’m not sure about that second part, maybe someone could correct me.
It’s difficult to find a detailed explanation of the metabolism (or lack thereof) of methylated steroids, and how it leads to a fatty liver. I’d be greatful if someone could explain it to me.
Interestingly both alcohol and methylated AAS cause fatty liver.
Thanks for that input there anime. I know people who have done pulses before with great results so I was reluctant to disagree with the previous comments regarding it. Seeing as I am not doing a pulse though, it doesn’t really matter this time around. The logic does seem sound though although with such differing views maybe we will never know for sure with such little evidence to work with.
Quick question looking ahead to the following weeks. If I decide to start using nolva on cycle if stage 1 nolva becomes apparent then will the nolva used during PCT be just as effective or will I not get the same effect from it if I have been using it for several weeks on cycle at a low dose?
I can use clomid instead for PCT or a combination of the two but I would rather keep the emotional sides to a minimum as this would really bother me. I am going to avoid arimidex as I really don’t want to dry out my joints as I have a shoulder injury that comes and goes. I realise most people will recommend this or letro.
So the question is just for nolva on cycle use really and what knock on effects it would have. The reason I ask is because I would be sensitive to this kind of thing due to similar effects during puberty and it has flared up since whilst using tribulus which can raise estrogen.
Out of interest what is your opinion on running test throught but only taking dbol before training either from week 5 onwards at 10mg to add a little extra without the sides or for the entire cycle just taking the dbol before and after training at a higher dose while test is running to avoid dips in steroids in the blood. So they will be high when you want them and never too low for on rest days when you still need them but not as much (yes I realise your muscles grow when you are resting but like I showed in the video earlier, the effects of steroids are really valuable in blocking muscle wasting hormones and giving the effect of high testosterone when your body normally has low levels during training)
Anyway I will do the usual 30mg a day for first 4 weeks but would be interested in the value of taking 10mg before training on training days for an extra week or two due to the short half-life of the dbol. Would this cause any problems?
Here is the update i promised a day late but anyway here goes:
Weight increase from last week: 1.6 kilos (slowed down somewhat)
Fat % up 0.9
Water % down 0.7
Muscle % down 0.3
Doesn’t look like good reading but I really can’t work them out as my lifts in the gym continue to fly up. I am way stronger on everything again. Added another 10KG to all major lifts and still getting the reps in.
Can anyone explain why perhaps the water and muscle % in going down which would be te opposite to what I was expecting. Bear in mind I am not eating loads of bad food or anything?
I am considering 1 day on 1 day off program with cardio days inbetween now to bring up the physical activity without being drained like I feel from the 2 weights sessions in a row. The cardio is not going to be anything too demanding; its just to try and slow this fat increase which I was not expecting.
I just had a quick read through this thread. I did not read every post in great detail. Since you’re posting for others’ opinions, I will give mine - in dot point form as I can’t really be fucked constructing proper sentences.
-Keep dbol levels as steady as possible. With an approximate 6 hour half life, you’d do best to take one 10mg tablet 3x a day. Of course, BONEZ is the one really worth listening to, if he chimes in with more advice you’d do well to listen. As he said, don’t lower dosages on non-training days. The body does not take kindly to constantly fluctuating levels of sex hormones.
-After one week of test cyp, without a frontload, it is unlikely you will really notice much. It will take probably 3-4 weeks before you really start observing changes to your body. Even then, with your low dose of 300mg every 6 days, I can’t say how drastic those changes will be
-You should be using an AI, regardless of if you do not have any sides of elevated estrogen. Anastrazole is forgiving, you will not crash your E. 0.5mg every two days whilst on dbol, then perhaps .5mg every three days when not on Dbol. Those dosages are not gospel, just a guide. I believe they are conservative. Ask BONEZ or KSMan.
-I think you should’ve bumped the cyp to 500mg/w. I do not think it is too late to raise it.
Wish you the very best of luck and hope you are very satisfied with your results.
[quote]anime wrote:
A smaller amount of dbol taken per week = less liver damage (35mg* 3 = 105mg, 20mg*7 = 140mg: 40% difference). Also, I believe anabolic steroids cause liver damage similar to the way tylenol causes liver damage. However, I’m not sure about that second part, maybe someone could correct me.
It’s difficult to find a detailed explanation of the metabolism (or lack thereof) of methylated steroids, and how it leads to a fatty liver. I’d be greatful if someone could explain it to me.
Interestingly both alcohol and methylated AAS cause fatty liver.
edit: many steroids, including glucocorticoids[/quote]
I hastily posted that reply.
What I should have asked was this.
Does pulsing actually allow the liver regenerate to any significant degree? Thus allowing you to use a higher total dose than with a straight dose. Because that’s the only conceivable benefit I can come up with.
I also think it’s silly to measure total amount used over a week as no one uses an oral steroid for just one week, but I know you were just creating an example.
Because using 20mg/d for even 8 weeks is not going to cause any serious harm to a healthy man who doesnt abuse his body otherwise.
You will not convince me that intentionally creating a fluctutating level of dbol is a good thing in it of itself. But if you can somehow show that pulsing allows a higher total dose to be used with the same amount of ‘damage’ as a lower dose administered according to the half life of the drug, I’d merit the idea, I guess.
Thanks for your input, Intensified. Well I did notice good gains so far in the first 2 weeks taking what I’m taking but I guess that is mostly down to the dbol kickstart. I was just concerned about the readings I am getting from my scales but I suppose if my strength is going up fast and I feel that I still look good then that is going to be what matters rather than scales that are going against what is supposed to be happening and what is apparently happening to me.
As it is my first cycle I would like to see how I get on with the lowish dose. You guys have convinced me to take more next time but I may struggle to get more in time to increase my dosage this time as i simply do not have enough to go round. My friend who advised me on what to do had recommeneded this lower dose which is why I didn’t buy more test when I had chance. Thats the basic explanation for why I chose this approach, but I am still happy with results thusfar. I am also worried about gyno sides as I think I said in a previous post, it tends to flare up sometimes when taking tribulus of all things - so far so good though.
Point taken about the dbol, I will keep it simple for my first cycle and stick to 4 weeks 30mg every day. It was good to see both sides of the argument and I am interested to hear everyones opinions so thanks for adding a bit more Bonez. I love to learn as much as I can and I hope this is of use to those in similar situations as that was the point of me starting this thread on here afterall.