Fighting Fire With Fire

[quote]pookie wrote:

You read and understood all of it in less than 4 hours?

Doesn’t that big book of yours have rules against lying and dishonesty?

[/quote]

Pookie, your reading comprehension when it comes to my posts is so dismal that I highly doubt you were even able to read and comprehend that paper yourself.

Did I say I read and understood the whole thing? I have a baby to take care of, I really don’t have that kind of time. That is why I asked you to give me your favourite proof, which you didn’t do. Imagine if you asked me a theological question and I posted the entire Bible and said “the answer is in here”. I sort of speed read the article and skimmed through it. Let?s be honest. Everyone here except for maybe hspder did the same. It had a nice title but it wasn’t exactly a summary for the lay person.

Now please don’t have another little tantrum. I am leaving t-mag now. I will be back later. I will continue talking to you later. I’m not avoiding your questions but I have other responsibilities I have to take care of since I was on-line far too much yesterday. Thanks for understanding Pookie. As I said, have a good day.

[quote]pookie wrote:
btm62 wrote:
So there was a spontaneous combustion of sorts at the beginning? What was it that combusted or exploded or banged and where did it come from?

We’re discussing evolution, not cosmology; try to keep up.[/quote]

I think its a pertinent question. And your answer would be? Or will you correct my spelling or understanding of a bang vs. combustion?

Your not really discussing anything, your badgering, insulting, and belittling more than anything else.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Is that not a critical part of your theory (oops - “facts”, sorry), though? I mean - if it’s all about evolving then carrying it back to the beginning is not out of line.
[/quote]

Evolution deals with the, well, evolution of living species over time. It does not addresse the creation of the universe, nor does it generally address abiogenesis, or how life came to form from non living elements. The “evolution” of the universe itself is generally refered to as cosmology and is an entirely different thing.

Just because the Bible freely mixes the two doesn’t mean you can’t discuss them separately.

[quote]btm62 wrote:
pookie wrote:
btm62 wrote:
So there was a spontaneous combustion of sorts at the beginning? What was it that combusted or exploded or banged and where did it come from?

We’re discussing evolution, not cosmology; try to keep up.

I think its a pertinent question. And your answer would be? Or will you correct my spelling or understanding of a bang vs. combustion?

Your not really discussing anything, your badgering, insulting, and belittling more than anything else.
[/quote]

Abiogenesis is a separate branch of science from evolution. So no, its not pertinent.

[quote]hspder wrote:
nephorm wrote:
What would count, for example, would be evolving a plant such that it developed an eye, or something like that.

Just in case somebody takes you seriously on that, plants and animals with eyes evolved separetely from much earlier forms – basic cells with mithocondria. That means that no plant eventually got eyes. Or organs in general. Or even a nervous and vascular system.
[/quote]

Right, which is why it would be irrefutable proof of “macroevolution” :). But yeah, it’s pretty nonsensical, since without any sort of nervous system to process the information, and given that plants are already photosensitive and very complex organisms, there’s really no way for plants to go from point A to Z.

[quote]JPBear wrote:
Did I say I read and understood the whole thing? I have a baby to take care of, I really don’t have that kind of time.[/quote]

Who says you have to read it all today? There’s not a paper due at the end of the week.

I don’t have a “favorite” proof. I simply pointed you to a well researched and nicely summarised list of the many “proofs” supporting macro-evolution. While any single “proof” taken alone might not be entirely convincing; it is nearly impossible to dismiss all the proofs taken together. They all point to the same conclusion: Macro-evolution occurs.

If you’re unwilling to give it more than a cursory skim before dismissing it, then you’re simply proving me right when I say that you have no real desire to understand evolution; only to dismiss it.

Bad analogy. That site summarizes quite well all the pertinent information pertaining to macro-evolution. If you want the long version, look up every reference given. Some of the pages there have a longer reference list than the summart at the top of the page.

Are you surprised there’s so much evidence for it? It’s not considered “a scientific fact” for nothing.

Yes, tell me about honesty.

Which part did you find difficult? From what I see, you intend to devote exactly zero time to reading anything about evolution; except for what creationist websites tell you to think about it.

If that’s how you feel, it’s ok. Just be honest and simply admit it. Don’t get involved in a discussion about evolution when, from your own admissions, you have no time to devote to understanding it.

[quote]Ren wrote:
btm62 wrote:
pookie wrote:
btm62 wrote:
So there was a spontaneous combustion of sorts at the beginning? What was it that combusted or exploded or banged and where did it come from?

We’re discussing evolution, not cosmology; try to keep up.

I think its a pertinent question. And your answer would be? Or will you correct my spelling or understanding of a bang vs. combustion?

Your not really discussing anything, your badgering, insulting, and belittling more than anything else.

Abiogenesis is a separate branch of science from evolution. So no, its not pertinent.[/quote]

Ignoring the question is a seperate branch of BS. You can trace a man back to a primate, but where did the primate come from? Where did that entity come from? Take it back to the beginning for me. Go ahead and skip the steps you aren’t sure about, I’m more interested in the absolute origin. You know the ONE thing that all things can ultimately trace back to. And then…tell me where that one thing came from. Surely all you abiogenesis panspermic knowers of all things can answer this simple question.

[quote]btm62 wrote:
Gee thanks Mr. Science. Gosh I’m ever so impressed. Maybe you could stick to the question on this next try instead of evading it by berating me.[/quote]

I did not evade your question; I clearly answered it. Maybe I used too many words?

How’s this: NO, the Big-Bang was not some sort of spontaneous combustion.

Is that simple enough?

Ok seeing as no-one is prepared to disect my posts like they do everyone elses, and the reason for that isn’t particularly important, I’ll simplify some of the stuff so that might garner some more interest.

The issue of general evolution (rather than specific aspects of molecular progression) in a nutshell makes some individuals uncomfortable. As we observe here.
It causes this discomfort because it explains quite clearly (make no bone about it) how life could have emerged without any external purpose or design.

Evolutionary explanations are threatening to people who assume that naturalistic explanations undercut meaning in life.

If one was to assume that they were mediated through some higher power or creator, it follows that their personal existence has at least some built-in purpose.

Most of us will question our existance, why are we here. Many who have become born again christians have asked themselves this question and attempted to apply reason to the aftermath of situations, such as bereavement, recovering from drug or alcohol use, getting out of debt, abusive relationship etc.

It would be satisfying to say we are here for a reason. But…and its a huge but, this would not necessarily follow that we were designed for any good reason.

What would be a positive step would be convincing those who prefer to disgard science tin favor of religion is that science is merely filling the exacting evolutionary need that God gave all of us.

This need for convincing answers before we take our next step. The need for God endured after Galileo’s theory was brought out of the darkness of ignorance, and it will endure when the battle over evolution vs. creationism is over.

Families in all communities will still require the comfort and wisdom of their religious leaders; the formation of morals and cultural behavior models will always be their provenance. It is time, however, to see the overwhelming logic before them by accepting the evolutionary theory.

[quote]btm62 wrote:
I’m more interested in the absolute origin. You know the ONE thing that all things can ultimately trace back to. And then…tell me where that one thing came from. Surely all you abiogenesis panspermic knowers of all things can answer this simple question. [/quote]

Of course we can. Let’s start with Dawkins in the interview (that’s the Original Post):

You can’t statistically explain improbable things like living creatures [or the Big Bang] by saying that they must have been designed because you’re still left to explain the designer, who must be, if anything, an even more statistically improbable and elegant thing. Design can never be an ultimate explanation for anything. It can only be a proximate explanation. A plane or a car is explained by a designer but that’s because the designer himself, the engineer, is explained by natural selection.

So that explains why the Creationist theory does not hold ground – but it doesn’t necessarily answer your question, I know.

Actually, ironically, the answer (in my opinion) was spotted a long time ago, by one Augustine of Hippo, a Christian “saint” who lived in the fifth century. In those days before science, cosmology was a branch of theology, and the taunt came not from journalists, but from pagans: “What was God doing before he made the universe?” they asked. “Busy creating Hell for the likes of you!” was the standard reply.

But Augustine was more subtle. The world, he claimed, was made “not in time, but simultaneously with time.” In other words, the origin of the universe-what we now call the big bang-was not simply the sudden appearance of matter in an eternally preexisting void, but the coming into being of time itself. Time began with the cosmic origin. There was no “before,” no endless ocean of time for a god, or a physical process, to wear itself out in infinite preparation.

Remarkably, modern science has arrived at more or less the same conclusion as Augustine, based on what we now know about the nature of space, time, and gravitation. It was Albert Einstein who taught us that time and space are not merely an immutable arena in which the great cosmic drama is acted out, but are part of the cast-part of the physical universe. As physical entities, time and space can change- suffer distortions-as a result of gravitational processes. Gravitational theory predicts that under the extreme conditions that prevailed in the early universe, space and time may have been so distorted that there existed a boundary, or “singularity,” at which the distortion of space-time was infinite, and therefore through which space and time cannot have continued. Thus, physics predicts that time was indeed bounded in the past as Augustine claimed. It did not stretch back for all eternity.

If the big bang was the beginning of time itself, then any discussion about what happened before the big bang, or what caused it-in the usual sense of physical causation-is simply meaningless. Unfortunately, many children, and adults, too, regard this answer as disingenuous. There must be more to it than that, they object.

Indeed there is. After all, why should time suddenly “switch on”? What explanation can be given for such a singular event? Until recently, it seemed that any explanation of the initial “singularity” that marked the origin of time would have to lie beyond the scope of science. However, it all depends on what is meant by “explanation.” As I remarked, all children have a good idea of the notion of cause and effect, and usually an explanation of an event entails finding something that caused it. It turns out, however, that there are physical events which do not have well-defined causes in the manner of the everyday world. These events belong to a weird branch of scientific inquiry called quantum physics.

Mostly, quantum events occur at the atomic level; we don’t experience them in daily life. On the scale of atoms and molecules, the usual commonsense rules of cause and effect are suspended. The rule of law is replaced by a sort of anarchy or chaos, and things happen spontaneously-for no particular reason. Particles of matter may simply pop into existence without warning, and then equally abruptly disappear again. Or a particle in one place may suddenly materialize in another place, or reverse its direction of motion. Again, these are real effects occurring on an atomic scale, and they can be demonstrated experimentally.

A typical quantum process is the decay of a radioactive nucleus. If you ask why a given nucleus decayed at one particular moment rather than some other, there is no answer. The event “just happened” at that moment, that’s all. You cannot predict these occurrences. All you can do is give the probability-there is a fifty-fifty chance that a given nucleus will decay in, say, one hour. This uncertainty is not simply a result of our ignorance of all the little forces and influences that try to make the nucleus decay; it is inherent in nature itself, a basic part of quantum reality.

The lesson of quantum physics is this: Something that “just happens” need not actually violate the laws of physics. The abrupt and uncaused appearance of something can occur within the scope of scientific law, once quantum laws have been taken into account. Nature apparently has the capacity for genuine spontaneity.
It is, of course, a big step from the spontaneous and uncaused appearance of a subatomic particle-something that is routinely observed in particle accelerators-to the spontaneous and uncaused appearance of the universe. But the loophole is there. If, as astronomers believe, the primeval universe was compressed to a very small size, then quantum effects must have once been important on a cosmic scale. Even if we don’t have a precise idea of exactly what took place at the beginning, we can at least see that the origin of the universe from nothing need not be unlawful or unnatural or unscientific. In short, it need not have been a supernatural event.

Inevitably, scientists will not be content to leave it at that. We would like to flesh out the details of this profound concept. There is even a subject devoted to it, called quantum cosmology. Two famous quantum cosmologists, James Hartle and Stephen Hawking, came up with a clever idea that goes back to Einstein. Einstein not only found that space and time are part of the physical universe; he also found that they are linked in a very intimate way. In fact, space on its own and time on its own are no longer properly valid concepts. Instead, we must deal with a unified “space-time” continuum. Space has three dimensions, and time has one, so space-time is a four-dimensional continuum.

In spite of the space-time linkage, however, space is space and time is time under almost all circumstances. Whatever space-time distortions gravitation may produce, they never turn space into time or time into space. An exception arises, though, when quantum effects are taken into account. That all-important intrinsic uncertainty that afflicts quantum systems can be applied to space-time, too. In this case, the uncertainty can, under special circumstances, affect the identities of space and time. For a very, very brief duration, it is possible for time and space to merge in identity, for time to become, so to speak, spacelike-just another dimension of space.

The spatialization of time is not something abrupt; it is a continuous process. Viewed in reverse as the temporalization of (one dimension of) space, it implies that time can emerge out of space in a continuous process. (By continuous, I mean that the timelike quality of a dimension, as opposed to its spacelike quality, is not an all-or-nothing affair; there are shades in between. This vague statement can be made quite precise mathematically.)

The essence of the Hartle-Hawking idea is that the big bang was not the abrupt switching on of time at some singular first moment, but the emergence of time from space in an ultrarapid but nevertheless continuous manner. On a human time scale, the big bang was very much a sudden, explosive origin of space, time, and matter. But look very, very closely at that first tiny fraction of a second and you find that there was no precise and sudden beginning at all. So here we have a theory of the origin of the universe that seems to say two contradictory things: First, time did not always exist; and second, there was no first moment of time. Such are the oddities of quantum physics.

Even with these further details thrown in, many people feel cheated. They want to ask why these weird things happened, why there is a universe, and why this universe. Perhaps science cannot answer such questions. Science is good at telling us how, but not so good on the why. Maybe there isn’t a why. To wonder why is very human, but perhaps there is no answer in human terms to such deep questions of existence. Or perhaps there is, but we are looking at the problem in the wrong way.

Well, I didn’t promise to provide the answers to life, the universe, and everything, but I have at least given a non-recursive answer to the question you posed. The answer is: Nothing.

[quote]pookie wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Is that not a critical part of your theory (oops - “facts”, sorry), though? I mean - if it’s all about evolving then carrying it back to the beginning is not out of line.

Evolution deals with the, well, evolution of living species over time. It does not addresse the creation of the universe, nor does it generally address abiogenesis, or how life came to form from non living elements. The “evolution” of the universe itself is generally refered to as cosmology and is an entirely different thing.

Just because the Bible freely mixes the two doesn’t mean you can’t discuss them separately.
[/quote]

I guess I didn’t get the memo on the disconnect in the time line.

I guess if you break the debate up into enough little debates - you are sure to win one of them.

My bad.

[quote]vroom wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Is that not a critical part of your theory (oops - “facts”, sorry), though? I mean - if it’s all about evolving then carrying it back to the beginning is not out of line.

Oh, come on now, one battle at a time man, one battle at a time.[/quote]

Since when has watching a monkey fuck a football been considered a 'battle"?

[quote]hspder wrote:
btm62 wrote:
Gee thanks Mr. Science. Gosh I’m ever so impressed. Maybe you could stick to the question on this next try instead of evading it by berating me.

I did not evade your question; I clearly answered it. Maybe I used too many words?

How’s this: NO, the Big-Bang was not some sort of spontaneous combustion.

Is that simple enough?[/quote]

Okay, so just one more okay. And this time I’ll try to ask only 1 question, lest you get to pick and choose the one you want to answer. Remember just beacuse they call you smartass they’re not talking about your intelligence.

Where did the stuff that went bang, in a BIG manner, come from?

I know it probably evolved somehow, but from what?

“Gravity was here before “science” discovered it.”

[quote]hspder wrote:
btm62 wrote:
Gee thanks Mr. Science. Gosh I’m ever so impressed. Maybe you could stick to the question on this next try instead of evading it by berating me.

I did not evade your question; I clearly answered it. Maybe I used too many words?

How’s this: NO, the Big-Bang was not some sort of spontaneous combustion.

Is that simple enough?[/quote]

Must have missed the second question after that one huh?

[quote]btm62 wrote:

Ignoring the question is a seperate branch of BS. You can trace a man back to a primate, but where did the primate come from? Where did that entity come from? Take it back to the beginning for me. Go ahead and skip the steps you aren’t sure about, I’m more interested in the absolute origin. You know the ONE thing that all things can ultimately trace back to. And then…tell me where that one thing came from. Surely all you abiogenesis panspermic knowers of all things can answer this simple question. [/quote]

So a theory explaining how life evolved after it somehow began is not good enough?

You are pissed because the ET does not do what it was never meant to do?

Plus, it is relatively easy to find a plausible reason for the beginning of"life" but that would mean admitting that “life” could just be another name for highly organised matter.

[quote]jasonigor wrote:
Ok seeing as no-one is prepared to disect my posts like they do everyone elses, and the reason for that isn’t particularly important, I’ll simplify some of the stuff so that might garner some more interest. [/quote]

Just to make it clear, in my personal case the reason I did not dissect your posts is that I completely agree with everything you said… That doesn’t mean I do not find your posts very interesting and thought provoking and it doesn’t mean that I’d put things the same way either; still, everything you said makes very much sense and is hard to argue against – and even harder to argue for, because it would require a level of training in Psychology I do not have (I have a measly minor in Psychology).

I did think about responding to your comment about the creative ways how some Evolutionists call Creationists retarded, but I’m too involved to present an objective argument for or against your analysis… the fact that there are many different types of Creationists, from the ones that believe that the Big-Bang was created but everything else from that point on ran its course (including the Evolutionary process) to the ones that take Genesis literally makes the issue even more complicated – because while I feel that the latter is indeed a belief born out of deep ignorance, the former is simply a decision of faith that does not imply deep ignorance or stupidity. Ignorance of Quantum Physics, maybe, but I honestly do not expect every intelligent person on the planet to have even a superficial understanding of Quantum Physics.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
pookie wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Is that not a critical part of your theory (oops - “facts”, sorry), though? I mean - if it’s all about evolving then carrying it back to the beginning is not out of line.

Evolution deals with the, well, evolution of living species over time. It does not addresse the creation of the universe, nor does it generally address abiogenesis, or how life came to form from non living elements. The “evolution” of the universe itself is generally refered to as cosmology and is an entirely different thing.

Just because the Bible freely mixes the two doesn’t mean you can’t discuss them separately.

I guess I didn’t get the memo on the disconnect in the time line.

I guess if you break the debate up into enough little debates - you are sure to win one of them.

My bad. [/quote]

That is why the process of science does it that way.

A little bit cheap perhaps,
especially compared with scriptures that explain life, the universe and everything all in one book, but it has its merits, like indoor plumbing and air conditioning.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I guess I didn’t get the memo on the disconnect in the time line.

I guess if you break the debate up into enough little debates - you are sure to win one of them.[/quote]

Well, I’ve answered the question – so now that I have satisfied your request my expectation is that practice what you preach and thoughfully respond to my answer with a careful analysis of your own – not with insults or a colorful metaphor.

[quote]btm62 wrote:
Must have missed the second question after that one huh? [/quote]

Nope. Look again, it’s on a separate post.

Rainjack,

The concept is to deal with one issue at a time so that the goalposts aren’t changing while you are in the middle of the game.

Evolution means the process of life changing form over time. It doesn’t mean the origin of the universe and whatever else people might like explained.

The reason to go further back is simply because less is currently clear about that period and it is perhaps more difficult for science to provide clear answers.

That is hardly reasonable with respect to proving the existence of a creator. It’s also suspicious how today’s “proof” when proven wrong will be discarded for another “proof” until it is proven wrong, perhaps repeatedly.

I’ll say again, I see no reason why science and religion cannot coexist, unless it is religion that decides to be exclusionary.

Except for some types of fundamental literal interpretations the important parts of religion are about the treatment of your fellow man. Anyone who accepts those areas as of primary importance doesn’t seem to worry about these issues very much…