Fighting Fire With Fire

Personal experiences count in the psychology of an individuals religion only because they already believe.

For ages man believed that the summer’s crop, the rain supply, the fertility of the cattle, depended upon the gods, and this gave him a bias toward religion; but, obviously, the belief is the primary thing.

Personal reasoning, on the other hand, has very little to do with religion in this largest class of worshipers.

The world seems to them, in such dull gleams of reflection as they have, to be quite in harmony with their religion.

The prosperity of the wicked and suffering of the good will be put right in the next world, and so on. Doubt never occurs to the overwhelming majority, and reason is not invoked to allay it. The stream of religious tradition flows placidly on.

The consciousness of sin or of moral struggle which some Christians give as an important element of the psychology of religion seems to me an effect rather than a cause, or even an ingredient.

There is no consciousness of sin until you believe in God.

The painful sense of moral struggle and the heightened (delusional) sense of moral decency is often largely a creation in the mind of the individual, with little prompts from external stimulus, but largely the ego.

These people will create the feeling in a few people and then boast that religion meets it.
It does not.

Religion makes it far worse. The ordinary healthy man or woman is not conscious of legions of devils urging him or her to be unfaithful or to get drunk. One has to be firm sometimes, to decline an attraction, to refuse to lie or cheat, but one doesn’t on that account groan and froth at the mouth. The moral struggle is an accompaniment or effect of belief rather than an element of religion.

Men of recent centuries are deeply psychological beings. They hypothesize psychologically and primarily evaluate their thoughts and feelings psychologically.

Most are not aware of the specific content of the deep and hidden dimensions of their psyches, why would they be ?

But because they have some inkling that, most often they are repressed and miserably inaccessible to their consciousness; they are aware that such dimensions exist and that they control their lives and actions more than do their
conscious egos.

Without reservation, Biblical authors were never psychological beings.

They did not hold a fraction of the information that they would today.

Yet almost paradoxically, as people they would have had the same deep thought processes we do today, although unaware they were of psychological realities.

[quote]JPBear wrote:
No, I was just trying to show that not all scientists and evolutionists claim that evolution is a fact without any holes or missing proof.[/quote]

By posting quotes from various person you misrepresent as “Evolutionists”; taking their quotes out of context, or quoting only part of their original statement; quoting people who are commenting outside their field of expertise, etc.

And again, without having read anything yourself about evolution.

Why didn’t you give the source for those quotes? Could it be a site similar to this one: http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/SBS777/vital/evolutio.html which show it’s unbiased evaluation by ending with a section entitled “Everlasting Gospel”?

I guess that’s a “no” then.

Here you go: 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: The Scientific Case for Common Descent

29 scientific “evidences” supporting macro-evolution specifically.

Except the death row inmate is a conscious, breathing person. The embryo is not. The inmate might get a stay of execution or a sentence reversal. (Many in recent years, mostly from DNA analysis; another “scientific” endeavour criticized by right wing christians.)

So, in your view it is better to simply destroy those embryos outright, than to use their embryonic stem cells to advance research? God forbid we figure out how to cure some of the fun diseases He’s created for us to enjoy in our later years.

Where’s the reference for all those evolution quotes above?

When do you plan on starting?

[quote]hspder wrote:
Before I forget:

And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree. – Genesis 1:11

And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. – Genesis 1:24

Notice that God lets “the earth bring forth” the plants and animals, rather than create them directly. Genesis is not so anti-evolution after all.
[/quote]

You’re forgetting the second account of Creation in Genesis 2:

2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

And to go from:

2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

…to “man slowly evolved from earlier primates” takes quite a bit of interpretation.

[quote]vroom wrote:
jasonigor and hspder wrote:
Some interesting stuff…

Damn, if these smart and articulate people keep on hanging around these parts I might have to up my game…

[/quote]

Don’t worry, there will be enough people hanging around these parts that will reduce these discussions to “Creationist are idiots that live in the dark ages!” and “Evolutionist are idiots and their souls are damned!” that you may not have to up your game too much. Just wait, they aren’t awake yet. :wink:

[quote]pookie wrote:

Here you go: 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: The Scientific Case for Common Descent

29 scientific “evidences” supporting macro-evolution specifically.

[/quote]

Good job Pookie, do you know what that was? Hypothesis, speculation, and fossils scientists hope they might find. This is the best you have to convince me? All you have done is strengthened my faith.

Thanks Pookie, have a great day!

[quote]JPBear wrote:
Good job Pookie, do you know what that was? Hypothesis, speculation, and fossils scientists hope they might find. This is the best you have to convince me? All you have done is strengthened my faith.
[/quote]

LOL!

Using a theory to determine a set of expectations and then to verify them is what science does.

Why would you assume it works when you use the television, fridge, stove, or any of millions of issues, but that it doesn’t when dealing with this particular topic.

[quote]JPBear wrote:
Vroom, I am not rejecting any scientific evidence!!! I am rejecting theories and speculation. The day someone can show me hard evidence for anything other than microevolution, then you can accuse me of “salad bar science”. [/quote]

What is your definition of microevolution? Speciation has been forced through selection in both plants and insects. If you reject that then your are rejecting scientific evidence. Certainly we can breed animals within a species to the point where they are physically quite distinct (look what we’ve done with dogs). So, putting those two things together, we can breed plants or animals that are reproductively distinct and that are physically quite different. Is that not “macroevolution”? Or does “macroevolution” work for plants and insects, but not for other things?

[quote]JPBear wrote:
Good job Pookie, do you know what that was? Hypothesis, speculation, and fossils scientists hope they might find. This is the best you have to convince me? All you have done is strengthened my faith.

Thanks Pookie, have a great day!
[/quote]

You read and understood all of it in less than 4 hours?

Doesn’t that big book of yours have rules against lying and dishonesty?

I’m curious: what part refers to “fossils scientists hope they might find?”

As for your faith, it apparently needs all the strengthening it can get, if it only survives by you denying yourself, your friends, reality…

[quote]pookie wrote:
hspder wrote:
Before I forget:

And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree. – Genesis 1:11

And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. – Genesis 1:24

Notice that God lets “the earth bring forth” the plants and animals, rather than create them directly. Genesis is not so anti-evolution after all.

You’re forgetting the second account of Creation in Genesis 2:

2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

And to go from:

2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

…to “man slowly evolved from earlier primates” takes quite a bit of interpretation.

[/quote]

So there was a spontaneous combustion of sorts at the beginning? What was it that combusted or exploded or banged and where did it come from? My gosh, how long has this stuff been around? Surely it would have happened again. Can you prove that? Sounds like your relying on faith. Not in God surely, but in a path that science has led you down. Your opinions and qoutes are no more valid than anyone elses. “Panspermic” good word though. I’m gonna try to work that in next date night.

[quote]vroom wrote:
JPBear wrote:
Good job Pookie, do you know what that was? Hypothesis, speculation, and fossils scientists hope they might find. This is the best you have to convince me? All you have done is strengthened my faith.

LOL!

Using a theory to determine a set of expectations and then to verify them is what science does.

Why would you assume it works when you use the television, fridge, stove, or any of millions of issues, but that it doesn’t when dealing with this particular topic.[/quote]

Would that be similar to the animal rights activist who ordered some hand made designer leather sofas ?

[quote]pookie wrote:
I’m curious: what part refers to “fossils scientists hope they might find?”[/quote]

Yeah, I really need her to explain to us what part of this indicates fossils scientists hope they might find:

Example: bird-reptiles

In the case just mentioned, we have found a quite complete set of dinosaur-to-bird transitional fossils with no morphological “gaps” (Sereno 1999), represented by Eoraptor, Herrerasaurus, Ceratosaurus, Allosaurus, Compsognathus, Sinosauropteryx, Protarchaeopteryx, Caudipteryx, Velociraptor, Sinovenator, Beipiaosaurus, Sinornithosaurus, Microraptor, Archaeopteryx, Rahonavis, Confuciusornis, Sinornis, Patagopteryx, Hesperornis, Apsaravis, Ichthyornis, and Columba, among many others (Carroll 1997, pp. 306-323; Norell and Clarke 2001; Sereno 1999; Xu et al. 1999; Xu et al. 2000; Xu et al. 2002).

Example: reptile-mammals

We also have an exquisitely complete series of fossils for the reptile-mammal intermediates, ranging from the pelycosauria, therapsida, cynodonta, up to primitive mammalia (Carroll 1988, pp. 392-396; Futuyma 1998, pp. 146-151; Gould 1990; Kardong 2002, pp. 255-275).

Example: legged fossil whales

Another impressive example of incontrovertible transitional forms predicted to exist by evolutionary biologists is the collection of land mammal-to-whale fossil intermediates. Whales, of course, are sea animals with flippers, lacking external hindlimbs. Since they are also mammals, the consensus phylogeny indicates that whales and dolphins evolved from land mammals with legs. In recent years, we have found several transitional forms of whales with legs, both capable and incapable of terrestrial locomotion (Bajpai and Gingerich 1998; Gingerich et al. 1983; Gingerich et al. 1990; Gingerich et al. 1994; Gingerich et al. 2001; Thewissen et al. 2001).

[I’d go on, but that’s enough Copy & Paste for today…]

There’s that teapot orbiting Mars that we can’t find, though. Maybe that’s what she’s referring to?

[quote]larryb wrote:
What is your definition of microevolution? Speciation has been forced through selection in both plants and insects. If you reject that then your are rejecting scientific evidence. Certainly we can breed animals within a species to the point where they are physically quite distinct (look what we’ve done with dogs). So, putting those two things together, we can breed plants or animals that are reproductively distinct and that are physically quite different. Is that not “macroevolution”? Or does “macroevolution” work for plants and insects, but not for other things?[/quote]

I believe that for creationists/ID proponents, macroevolution would consist of the creation of entirely new structures. So making a tail longer or shorter, or hair of a different consistency, would not count. What would count, for example, would be evolving a plant such that it developed an eye, or something like that. IOW, even the experiments that gave fruit flies more legs than usual wouldn’t count, since they already had legs.

If they were to develop hands with opposable thumbs, that might count as macroevolution.

Alternatively, causing a a very basic organism to develop into a much more complex one with characteristics of higher animals would probably be an example of macroevolution.

I do think, however, that even if scientists were to do any of these things, the rules would probably change…

[quote]btm62 wrote:
So there was a spontaneous combustion of sorts at the beginning? What was it that combusted or exploded or banged and where did it come from? [/quote]

We’re discussing evolution, not cosmology; try to keep up.

[quote]larryb wrote:
Or does “macroevolution” work for plants and insects, but not for other things?[/quote]

After reading the talkorigins link that pookie posted, I’ll have to add worms and mice (if you accept observation in nature as well as forced selection).

[quote]btm62 wrote:
So there was a spontaneous combustion of sorts at the beginning?[/quote]

Spontaneous combustion? That’s like saying the H-bomb is a bolt of lightning.

In case you’re missing the metaphor: combustion had nothing to do with it.

Combustion or burning is a complex sequence of chemical reactions between a fuel and an oxidant accompanied by the production of heat or both heat and light in the form of either a glow or flames.

The Big-Bang had NOTHING to do with chemical reactions, much less between a fuel and an oxidant – in fact, it was a long, long time before fuel and oxidants existed. Heck, it was 300,000 years before the first fuel – Hydrogen – showed up!

I’ll be happy to discuss with you the origins of the Universe, and the theist vs atheist theories around the Big Bang, but not until you have actually read up enough on Basic Physics to realize your momentous misunderstanding – and no longer confuse it with a “spontaneous combustion”.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
What would count, for example, would be evolving a plant such that it developed an eye, or something like that. [/quote]

Just in case somebody takes you seriously on that, plants and animals with eyes evolved separetely from much earlier forms – basic cells with mithocondria. That means that no plant eventually got eyes. Or organs in general. Or even a nervous and vascular system.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
I do think, however, that even if scientists were to do any of these things, the rules would probably change…[/quote]

Bingo. Yes, in fact most creationists like to completely ignore this famous experiment:

Stanley Miller with his Nobel Laureate supervisor, Harold Urey, demonstrated that 13 of the 21 amino acids necessary for life could be made in a glass flask. Placing water in this atmosphere, sparking a lightning discharge into simple organic molecules like ammonia surprised everyone by producing some of biology’s essential building blocks. Indeed the formation of life had begun to take on a distinctly molecular character, as Charles Darwin had foreseen as his classical warm pond of organic soup: (“… some warm little pond, with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, light, heat, electricity etc…” ).

Miller found that at least 10 percent of the carbon was converted into a small number of organic compounds and about two percent went into amino acids. Hydrogen, cyanide, and aldehydes were also produced. Glycine was the most abundant amino acid produced.

Flash forward fifty years and many high schools chemistry labs routinely repeat Miller’s classic result. Lasers are often substituted for high voltage discharges as an energy source, and this dramatically speeds up the signature yellowing of the primordial oceans.

… and the ones that do not ignore it will say “well, but LIVING CELLS didn’t form”. My answer: well, if you can stick around for a couple million years, they will…

[quote]pookie wrote:
btm62 wrote:
So there was a spontaneous combustion of sorts at the beginning? What was it that combusted or exploded or banged and where did it come from?

We’re discussing evolution, not cosmology; try to keep up.[/quote]

Is that not a critical part of your theory (oops - “facts”, sorry), though? I mean - if it’s all about evolving then carrying it back to the beginning is not out of line.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Is that not a critical part of your theory (oops - “facts”, sorry), though? I mean - if it’s all about evolving then carrying it back to the beginning is not out of line.
[/quote]

Oh, come on now, one battle at a time man, one battle at a time.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
I believe that for creationists/ID proponents, macroevolution would consist of the creation of entirely new structures. So making a tail longer or shorter, or hair of a different consistency, would not count. What would count, for example, would be evolving a plant such that it developed an eye, or something like that. IOW, even the experiments that gave fruit flies more legs than usual wouldn’t count, since they already had legs.

If they were to develop hands with opposable thumbs, that might count as macroevolution.[/quote]

Opposable (easily opposable) thumbs would pretty much have to count, otherwise, according to the rules you have stated, they aren’t denying that it’s possible that humans evolved from an ape-like ancestor, by the (creationist-acceptable) process of “microevolution”. But opposable thumbs are a fairly minor variation in a pre-existing structure. It seems to me that, by any but the most convoluted definition of microevolution, the gig is up already.

[quote]hspder wrote:
btm62 wrote:
So there was a spontaneous combustion of sorts at the beginning?

Spontaneous combustion? That’s like saying the H-bomb is a bolt of lightning.

In case you’re missing the metaphor: combustion had nothing to do with it.

Combustion or burning is a complex sequence of chemical reactions between a fuel and an oxidant accompanied by the production of heat or both heat and light in the form of either a glow or flames.

The Big-Bang had NOTHING to do with chemical reactions, much less between a fuel and an oxidant – in fact, it was a long, long time before fuel and oxidants existed. Heck, it was 300,000 years before the first fuel – Hydrogen – showed up!

I’ll be happy to discuss with you the origins of the Universe, and the theist vs atheist theories around the Big Bang, but not until you have actually read up enough on Basic Physics to realize your momentous misunderstanding – and no longer confuse it with a “spontaneous combustion”.[/quote]

Gee thanks Mr. Science. Gosh I’m ever so impressed. Maybe you could stick to the question on this next try instead of evading it by berating me. Here’s an idea. Pretend we’re talking face to face. You might not come off like such a pompous panspermic asshole then.

(Sweet, I got that worked in today!)