Fighting and Martial Arts

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
texasguy wrote:
Taquito wrote:
USMC?

Join the military and they’ll teach you how to be billy badass with or without weapons. It does seem very ironic to increase your chance of dying to an insane degree to learn to protect yourself, but I’m just sayin’ thats the best option. The goal is to kill an opponent in a street fight situation, in which your opponent wants to kill you and will do so given the chance. I doesn’t get more real life than that.

Alternatively doing wrestling and boxing will help immensely if you just want to win schoolyard fights.

i’ve seen more cocky marines have their asses handed to them then i have seen win a fight, unless they all jump in together.

Allow me to explain why Marines get themselves beat up. Back when I was in Japan a bunch of us decided to go to Roppongi. Well I’m sitting in this club called Gas Panic hitting on some Belgian ambassador’s daughter when my buddy comes up to me and says, " Lt. Jones [name omitted because he’s an idiot] was talking shit to some guy and just got knocked out in Wall Street!"

Moral of the story: When you are drunk, pissed off and looking for a fight, don’t talk shit to TITO ORTIZ.

mike[/quote]

yeah but if you are picking a fight at a bar the guy you are fighting is probably drunk too.

my theory, and i’m not dogging the marines, is that they are trained to believe they are the baddest of the bad and should fear no fight so when it comes time to run head first in to gun fire they will do so.

this translates to marines talking shit to any and everybody even when they shouldn’t be and they have their asses handed to them.

on a battle field, the feat would be a heroic act of self sacrifice; in a bar it is just stupid and mouthy.

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Scrappy wrote:
Yeah I really think boxing, wrestling, judo, bjj, thai boxing…though many critics scoff at their ‘rules’ and say they won’t work in the ‘street’, really work.

People live in a false world where they think going all “crazy” on a guy will do anything to a trained athlete. A boxer would pick their face apart, and a judo guy would have them on the ground so fast that the “crazy” guy will be lucky if he doesn’t get a concussion.

Plus, untrained people who fight are spent after 30 seconds. They blow they adrenaline load and start to quiver. It’s really funny, as sometimes they lose such control over their emotions they literally start crying.

I’ll pick the guy who in competition has looked across from someone who wants to do him serious harm over the “crazy” man unconstrained by rules. People who have never competed don’t get how each competition trains the competitor to be totally in control of his emotions and body while under stress.

Fighting on the street is like anything else: Preparation helps. You can’t expect to give a great speech before a large crowd if you just “wing” the speech. You need to do some public speaking and practice your speech and learn how to control your breath. Likewise, you can’t expect to win a fight against someone who has trained for such situations and is in total control over his body.

But I am preaching to the choir. Those not in the “choir” know in their hearts they would inflict massive damage on someone who, over the course of several years, has spent several hours a week training how to fight because; well, fuck it, they would go crazy in a fight![/quote]

I agree. Far too many people think that going crazy will help, as if they are the only ones who ‘go crazy’ when they are mad.

to the original poster. I do think that doing TMA’s like taekwondo, if trained right and also practicing things like kina mutai are not worthless by any means. I am not against that kind of thing totally.

I do think it’s a dangerous assumption to learn biting and not to know any ground bjj/wresling clinch stuff and understand the threats those people pose. I have seen Paul Vunak do Kina mutai and it’s certainly vicious. Paul has I think a brown belt in BJJ though, so he can get good positions.

I tend to think training time is best spent on the ‘core’ combat sports. Wrestling, bjj, boxing, thai. Brutal tactics are easily implemented if you have your basics set. If you have a good clinch, a decent right hand, 2 favorite takedowns and some ground control you’ll be fine in most situations.

Then, you will dominate without such tactics many times and if you wanna be brutal, or things are getting bad and your life is on the line you can always go for broke.

Also, as someone who trained in TMA’s and later in ‘street’ styles I can honestly say the ones I dealt with always had kind of weird people in them, and many were really insecure. Some guys I know still do that stuff and one very recently got beat up by some bouncers.

He’s a hot head and always starting trouble. Recently he got knocked out, other times he’s ‘won’. But why is he fighting in the first place? He’s majorly insecure.

I found that when I got into bjj, I did not have the same insecurities and had a lot less fights and such. Ironically, all those other systems advertised a self esteem increase and better awareness and all this, but training in bjj actually gave me that, though it never promised me that.

That’s why I am always on here trying to get people to give bjj an honest shot, or boxing/wrestling/mma over something like krav maga. I think training in sports where you actually get beat is only good for you.

BJJ literally changed my life…for the better. And what I noticed about every other martial art I trained was it made me less secure, more apt to fight, and didn’t make me happy.

Matt Thorton talks about this kind of thing all the time on his aliveness cds. They are fantastic and I think he really hits the nail on the head.

[quote]texasguy wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
texasguy wrote:
Taquito wrote:
USMC?

Join the military and they’ll teach you how to be billy badass with or without weapons. It does seem very ironic to increase your chance of dying to an insane degree to learn to protect yourself, but I’m just sayin’ thats the best option. The goal is to kill an opponent in a street fight situation, in which your opponent wants to kill you and will do so given the chance. I doesn’t get more real life than that.

Alternatively doing wrestling and boxing will help immensely if you just want to win schoolyard fights.

i’ve seen more cocky marines have their asses handed to them then i have seen win a fight, unless they all jump in together.

Allow me to explain why Marines get themselves beat up. Back when I was in Japan a bunch of us decided to go to Roppongi. Well I’m sitting in this club called Gas Panic hitting on some Belgian ambassador’s daughter when my buddy comes up to me and says, " Lt. Jones [name omitted because he’s an idiot] was talking shit to some guy and just got knocked out in Wall Street!"

Moral of the story: When you are drunk, pissed off and looking for a fight, don’t talk shit to TITO ORTIZ.

mike

yeah but if you are picking a fight at a bar the guy you are fighting is probably drunk too.

my theory, and i’m not dogging the marines, is that they are trained to believe they are the baddest of the bad and should fear no fight so when it comes time to run head first in to gun fire they will do so.

this translates to marines talking shit to any and everybody even when they shouldn’t be and they have their asses handed to them.

on a battle field, the feat would be a heroic act of self sacrifice; in a bar it is just stupid and mouthy. [/quote]

Nice!
I’ve been to wall street and gas panic in Roppongi Japanand there were fights at them when I was there too. Also a lot of pride guys there then and very few got into fights that I could tell.

One common theme to avoid fights is stay out of bars.

On the other thing. Military guys who train bjj with me and other styles have almost always been good guys and hard workers. Many spec ops and feds train with us and say they are bad assess cause they travel in teams and have guns. They do not learn awesome hand to hand as a rule in the military.

If they happen to get an instructor or a buddy who’s good at bjj or wrestling then they get good training but it isn’t the rule. I have run into my share of jerk marines. 2 I can think of. Always talking shit and always getting beat up. I tend to think it has nothing to do with being a marine.

They always thought they were the toughest guy ever, joined the marines, probably got picked on and beat up in the marines and are just general deuces. I suspect whatever they became they would be fighting and talking crap.

It’s immaturity, stupidity, and insecurity, not something I see in many of the people I know in the military. Just something you see in many people in general. Military, spec ops, feds and cops all train with us. Many are great, there are some jerks, but there are jerks who train with us who are accountants and doctors too.

[quote]Scrappy wrote:

BJJ literally changed my life…for the better. And what I noticed about every other martial art I trained was it made me less secure, more apt to fight, and didn’t make me happy.
…[/quote]

Training to kick ass and never getting the chance sucks.

Getting your energy out in real physical competition makes you less likely to want to do it in a bar.

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Scrappy wrote:
Yeah I really think boxing, wrestling, judo, bjj, thai boxing…though many critics scoff at their ‘rules’ and say they won’t work in the ‘street’, really work.

People live in a false world where they think going all “crazy” on a guy will do anything to a trained athlete. A boxer would pick their face apart, and a judo guy would have them on the ground so fast that the “crazy” guy will be lucky if he doesn’t get a concussion.

Plus, untrained people who fight are spent after 30 seconds. They blow they adrenaline load and start to quiver. It’s really funny, as sometimes they lose such control over their emotions they literally start crying.

I’ll pick the guy who in competition has looked across from someone who wants to do him serious harm over the “crazy” man unconstrained by rules. People who have never competed don’t get how each competition trains the competitor to be totally in control of his emotions and body while under stress.

Fighting on the street is like anything else: Preparation helps. You can’t expect to give a great speech before a large crowd if you just “wing” the speech. You need to do some public speaking and practice your speech and learn how to control your breath. Likewise, you can’t expect to win a fight against someone who has trained for such situations and is in total control over his body.

But I am preaching to the choir. Those not in the “choir” know in their hearts they would inflict massive damage on someone who, over the course of several years, has spent several hours a week training how to fight because; well, fuck it, they would go crazy in a fight![/quote]

Good post.

An untrained person that does not fight regularly usually falls to pieces the first time they get punched in the nose and their eyes well up with tears. A trained fighter has been through this and knows how to deal with being hit and staying cool, this alone puts them way ahead of the untrained fighter.

Add the fact that they have trained in the techniques and can probably throw a decent punch with power, or pick them up and dump them on their head and my money is on the trained fighter every time.

The adrenaline dump is also true, I remember the first time I got in a boxing ring with my trainer to spar. He beat the shit out of me and it was all I could do to cover up.

After about one minute I was a quivering wreck, could barely lift my arms, felt sick and had tears streaming down my face. I would not want to have that happen to me when I was facing someone who really wanted to hurt me.
I also had about 30-40lbs of muscle on him, so being bigger didn’t help me much!

If I had to choose a style, I’d choose a boxer every time.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=2068450760833041053&q=matt+thornton

matt thornton puts into words, how i feel about fighting and self defense. I did taekwondo for 11 years and even competed for great britain, but i feel ive learn’t more and have far more confidence now after 5 years of kyokushin karate (full contact) and submission grappling.

We get alot of guy come to the university submission grappling club from other university martial arts clubs and many dont stick it out, they’re not used to full contact rolling every session.

muay thai class i did in NZ had alot of like what if for streetfights and such. Like if they charge you. blah blah blah. Also had knife fighting seminars. nice place.

I work in a hospital with a mental health ward i can say with certainty , being able to keep your head in a confrontation beats the hell out of just "going crazy " . As for martial arts , i’ve did Ninjitsu for quite a few years and it served me well as did Chin-na , a chinese grappling style that involves pressure points and joint locks .

As has been mentioned though , if you just pick something and become very good at it , you’re ahead of probably 90 % of anyone you’re going to have to defend yourself against .

I always advise muay thai to beginners for it’s easiness to learn. A few months of that will have you being quite decent.

Boxing, wrestling and jujitsu I think are all excellent as well, but these days I prefer TKD. I’m too laid back to be aggressive these days, I just want to be part of a sport where I get to do cool aerials and spinning movements.

[quote]Stuey wrote:
CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Scrappy wrote:
Yeah I really think boxing, wrestling, judo, bjj, thai boxing…though many critics scoff at their ‘rules’ and say they won’t work in the ‘street’, really work.

People live in a false world where they think going all “crazy” on a guy will do anything to a trained athlete. A boxer would pick their face apart, and a judo guy would have them on the ground so fast that the “crazy” guy will be lucky if he doesn’t get a concussion.

Plus, untrained people who fight are spent after 30 seconds. They blow they adrenaline load and start to quiver. It’s really funny, as sometimes they lose such control over their emotions they literally start crying.

I’ll pick the guy who in competition has looked across from someone who wants to do him serious harm over the “crazy” man unconstrained by rules. People who have never competed don’t get how each competition trains the competitor to be totally in control of his emotions and body while under stress.

Fighting on the street is like anything else: Preparation helps. You can’t expect to give a great speech before a large crowd if you just “wing” the speech. You need to do some public speaking and practice your speech and learn how to control your breath. Likewise, you can’t expect to win a fight against someone who has trained for such situations and is in total control over his body.

But I am preaching to the choir. Those not in the “choir” know in their hearts they would inflict massive damage on someone who, over the course of several years, has spent several hours a week training how to fight because; well, fuck it, they would go crazy in a fight!

Good post.

An untrained person that does not fight regularly usually falls to pieces the first time they get punched in the nose and their eyes well up with tears. A trained fighter has been through this and knows how to deal with being hit and staying cool, this alone puts them way ahead of the untrained fighter.

Add the fact that they have trained in the techniques and can probably throw a decent punch with power, or pick them up and dump them on their head and my money is on the trained fighter every time.

The adrenaline dump is also true, I remember the first time I got in a boxing ring with my trainer to spar. He beat the shit out of me and it was all I could do to cover up.

After about one minute I was a quivering wreck, could barely lift my arms, felt sick and had tears streaming down my face. I would not want to have that happen to me when I was facing someone who really wanted to hurt me.
I also had about 30-40lbs of muscle on him, so being bigger didn’t help me much!

If I had to choose a style, I’d choose a boxer every time.
[/quote]
being bigger really doesn’t mean shit. as long as you are strong enough to do what you need to do (hit hard, lift your opponent et cetera) you are strong and big enough, even if he is bigger.

as long as you have the skill and experience to do what needs to be done you will be able to impose your will. of course being stronger would make it easier, but again, as long as you are strong enough, you are golden.

when i was on the wrestling team, coach put us up against people many weight classes heavier so we could improve our functional strength (that dirty phrase so many t nationers hate). i usually beat most of them but i had more experience too.

i had been in clubs as a younger kid and many of them had only started in high school or were football players staying in shape.

though bigger and stronger, they sucked.

hell, there was a kid that weighed 122 lbs. during football season, the team would come heckle us at practice. the little guy asked a linemen to a match.

when it was over, the lineman had been slammed twice (a double leg take down and a head and arm)his lip was fat and his nose bloody from cross faces. the little guy put him in a windmill and pinned him too. it was hilarious and the football guy was obviously pissed and embarrassed. he easily weighed 250.

i used to get in lots of bar fights. i’ve definately lost my share, but i’ve also beaten dudes bigger. the easiest way to do it is to just go at them. tackle them, use a wrestling take down or what have you, then pick their head up and punch it back down. most floors are pretty hard and if you just attack them fast enough you can hurt them enough from the get go to determine the rest of the fight. unless they have wrestled they can’t stop you. they expect a square up, punch exchanges or maybe a sloppy tackle and floor tussle.

they don’t expect to be bowled over, to have their head lifted before they get their bearings and then to have a fist smash their face followed by a floor cracking the back of their heads almost simultaneously. and what they don’t expect is where it’s at.

as long as you are strong enough to take them down and know how to follow up, you have a fighting chance.

“hard core” body builders would contest this though.

take up archery. Silent and deadly. No one will ever expect you to pull out a bow and arrow. Trust me

[quote]Scrappy wrote:
Yeah I really think boxing, wrestling, judo, bjj, thai boxing…though many critics scoff at their ‘rules’ and say they won’t work in the ‘street’, really work. Athletes who train their sports realistically are tough to deal with. If you wanna bite and eye gouge and that’s all you know you must realize the grappler knows that too and will wrap you up so you can’t do it. I train mostly in bjj, people have tried to bite/gouge me before, it is a joke to deal with if that’s their whole game. Now, trying to deal with a good wrestler who can defend the takedown and throw solid punches, or a guy who is really good at takedowns and great at bjj, that is much tougher for me.

Any one can learn a few foul tactics and may beat a similar level athlete who is unwilling to do the same foul tactics, sure. But if a guy trains realistic bjj, wrestling, boxing at a high level, he is probably gonna do better than someone who’s strategy is to poke you or bite you. That’s based on what I’ve seen. And I’ve been involved in martial arts since a very early age and have seen many TMA’s and street lethal styles left wanting after an encounter with a decent combat athlete. Wrestler, boxer, bjj’er etc.[/quote]

I’d agree that training in combat sports (those with full contact/resistance built into them) is essential for learning how to physically defend oneself. I would argue however, that neglecting any aspect of combat could come back to haunt you.

I know we’ve had these conversations before, so I’m not going to go into a lot of detail.

In short I feel that one needs to actually spend time learning the sciences of biting, body handles, eye attacks, nerve attacks and weaponry (either combat specific of improvised) if one wants to reach their potential.

Also, as was suggested before, it’s also important to learn how to avoid fighting in the first place (cerebral, postural, and verbal self defense skills), and be in peak physical condition.

Yes, being big and strong is often a strong deterrent, but being big,strong, and skilled is even better.

My advice would be to check out either Lysak’s Sento Method, or iCAT.

Good training,

Sentoguy