Fighting and Martial Arts

Off Topic
41

If you really want to learn practical aspects of fighting, and how to make the most of your potential, look into something called JEET KUNE DO. JKD is not a martial art by itself, but it is Bruce Lee’s philosophy on how to use martial arts. The three main tenents are:

  1. Throw out what’s useless
  2. Take what’s useful
  3. Make it your own

The idea is that no one martial system can do everything the best, but every system does have something to offer. I’ve seen Brazilian Jiujitsu players take down Kung Fu experts, Muay Thai boxers take down TKD master, and lots of other crazy stuff.

The point is, you have to have a little bit of everything, and that was Bruce’s idea when he was training and streetfighting. You need to know how to punch, so learn some boxing and muay thai. You need to know how to kick, so learn some Hapkido, TKD, or teng su do. You need to know how to grapple, so learn jujitsu, wrestling and sambo.

You need to know how to fight empty hands, with weapons, and against multiple opponents, so learn some Filipino martial arts and Kali. No art can do everything, but every art can do something, and that’s the idea of JKD.

With regard to the situations leading up to fighting, it’s definitely better not to fight. My main teacher has been streetfighting since he was a kid and has spent years as a full contact fighter all over the world, but if somebody tries to pick an ego-based fight with him, his first plan is to beg not to fight, and run away if he can, even if he knows that he can easily take the other person out.

When a guy with a knife who is on PCP decides he doesn’t like your face and wants to fix it for you, you don’t have much of a choice. It’s not about being a badass and flaunting an ego, but about doing what’s best with regard to the situation.

What’s best may actually be throwing a person who is trying to attack you and choking them to unconsciousness (classic jujitsu, and is not really that painful), as opposed to repeatedly kicking and elbowing them in the head until they are incapacitated (like muay thai).

In my opinion, as has been strongly effected by some of my teachers and mentors, reading the situation is where it all starts, and talking things out, reasoning, and running should all happen before a fight happens.

Basically, JKD is about doing what’s necessary to win. Part of this is not being dogmatic about specifically using one or another art for the purpose of self preservation. In fact, dogmatism to adhering to specific arts was what motivated Bruce to combine different arts. In his lifetime, he analyzed and took from 26 different martial arts to form his style of fighting, and he even died young.

Even in some of his movies, you can see some of his attitudes about who ought to learn what arts and why. Todyay, there are about 56 martial arts that are included in most JKD training.

Sorry to write so much or to sound like a commercial or something, but JKD is some that I myself have become passionate about, and it has definitely changed my outlook on self-defense as well as other areas of my life.

42

[quote]Petedacook wrote:
I have always been interested in Krav Maga. Bas Rutten also has some good ideas on street fighting.

I have found that just being a really big dude is better than knowing a martial art. Usually if you know a martial art but aren’t intimidating, you have to use the martial art, but being intimidating more often you can avoid the fight.

[/quote]

What kind of martial arts is best for beating up Petedacook? I only have 11" arms so I need all the help I can get.

mike

43

I took JKD in the Corps and boxed a lot in high school. What I have learned is that violence is necessary only as a last resort, but when it is necessary it is the ONLY resort.

When you have to fight for real, a lot of your skill is going to go right out the window. The better trained you are the better your skills will be but you will be fighting like it was your worst day of sparring at the gym.

That said I don’t think your particular martial art matters that much. What matters is that you spar with opponents. The reason boxers do better than most martial arts guys is because they know what it feels like to take a punch and have to keep fighting. Go to a gym where you will be pushed by fighting with other students.

I guess what I am saying is that the best way to win a fight isn’t some karate kid crane kick, it is with sudden unbridled violence.

I heard this story when I went to Iraq about this Iraqi mob getting all riled up about something or other. The leader of the group starts hassling this PFC who is standing guard and grabs his rifle, big mistake. The PFC wrestles his rifle away but is flustered as the crowd gets worse and the leader guy continues to argue.

His gunny walks deliberately over to the guy grabs him by the neck and without hesitating slams him into the deck. The mob fell apart. Sudden violence.

mike

44

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
If you are taking a martial art and you don’t think it will help you defend yourself why would you take it.

And the whole jail thing, make friends with a pig farmer.

We train in executive protection and justifiable force once in a while as well as our MMA training, Multiple attackers and weapons are something you need to deal with if it happens.

I kind of hate the whole martial arts are for discipline blah blah blah. The people who say that are the ones who usually get there ass kicked.

That’s like saying you should let your kid win at checkers or something.

Here is what our instructor has to say on the matter

http://edgewisdom.wordpress.com/[/quote]

Your instructor is spot on. I esp like this:

"What we have here is a daily attack that needs to be defended against. Where is the conflict here? Is it that Jim wants to beat Jared up every day thereby conflicting with Jared?s desire to not get beaten up? When a student like Jared comes to my Academy I am going to do my best to give him the physical skills and confidence to defend himself and to fight back.

If he already had those skills he would not be visiting my academy. I am not going to waste his valuable class time going over the same verbal diffusion skills that have already failed. I am not going to tell him to just avoid the bully because that has not worked. I am not going to tell him that fighting back is wrong and that he should not use his martial arts skills to fight because that is exactly what they are intended for.

What I am going to do is give Jared what he came here for, solid reality based self defense skills because that is my job. I am not a debating team coach, or a UN delegate. I am a martial arts instructor and I am proud that I teach people to defend themselves.

Martial arts instructors who have jumped on the conflict resolution bandwagon in favor of teaching real martial arts skills may be adding to their student?s confusion when it comes to a real self defense situation. Students should be taught what a conflict is and what an attack is so that they may be prepared for either should the need arise.

Too often in life people mistake kindness for weakness and sometimes you need to set them straight."

Good post!!

45

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
Petedacook wrote:
I have always been interested in Krav Maga. Bas Rutten also has some good ideas on street fighting.

I have found that just being a really big dude is better than knowing a martial art. Usually if you know a martial art but aren’t intimidating, you have to use the martial art, but being intimidating more often you can avoid the fight.

What kind of martial arts is best for beating up Petedacook? I only have 11" arms so I need all the help I can get.

mike[/quote]

46

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
Petedacook wrote:
I have always been interested in Krav Maga. Bas Rutten also has some good ideas on street fighting.

I have found that just being a really big dude is better than knowing a martial art. Usually if you know a martial art but aren’t intimidating, you have to use the martial art, but being intimidating more often you can avoid the fight.

What kind of martial arts is best for beating up Petedacook? I only have 11" arms so I need all the help I can get.

mike

[/quote]

Street Fight Survival Tips

Try to keep your hair short, especially in the back of your head. Long hair or trendy pony tails can be dangerous and risky for the following reasons:

(1) Vision - it can temporarily impair your vision during the course of a stret fight compound attack or during a ground fight;

(2) Manipulation - in a ground fight your assailant can pull your hair and manipulate your balance. Moreover, you can easily be controlled and thrown by the hair;

(3) Immobilization - your assailant can immobilize you by grabbing your hair. Many more street fighting tatics can be found in my book 1001 Street Fighting Secrets

www.sammyfranco.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=sammyfranco&Screen=street_fight

47

[quote]keaster wrote:
Let me also add that its not the martial art that matters, its the person. Become a beast and get some size and strength to back that up and you’ll be fine.

-Note- you may also want to consider that in todays world, the guy who get his ass kicked will probably charge you. Then you can see if you martial arts really work…

In jail[/quote]

I once knew a successful heavyweight boxer who killed a bouncer with a punch to the temple one night, then got life in jail.

Boxing + freestyle wresting + muay thai + BJJ. If you do mainly the first two then little of the last two then you’ve got a good back of tricks, IMO.

48

[quote]Irish Daza wrote:
Er…that’s not how you spell zanshin

http://www.truekarate.co.uk/index.html [/quote]

Uh, that’s because I don’t study zanshin. www.sanchinsystems.com

49

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
Petedacook wrote:
I have always been interested in Krav Maga. Bas Rutten also has some good ideas on street fighting.

I have found that just being a really big dude is better than knowing a martial art. Usually if you know a martial art but aren’t intimidating, you have to use the martial art, but being intimidating more often you can avoid the fight.

What kind of martial arts is best for beating up Petedacook? I only have 11" arms so I need all the help I can get.

mike

Street Fight Survival Tips

Try to keep your hair short, especially in the back of your head. Long hair or trendy pony tails can be dangerous and risky for the following reasons:

(1) Vision - it can temporarily impair your vision during the course of a stret fight compound attack or during a ground fight;

(2) Manipulation - in a ground fight your assailant can pull your hair and manipulate your balance. Moreover, you can easily be controlled and thrown by the hair;

(3) Immobilization - your assailant can immobilize you by grabbing your hair. Many more street fighting tatics can be found in my book 1001 Street Fighting Secrets

www.sammyfranco.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=sammyfranco&Screen=street_fight

[/quote]

I beg to differ sir. Anyone who remembers The Renegade (Lorenzo Lamas) knows his flowing locks enhanced his fighting abilities and helped him takedown countless bad guys. It also made him look cool. I wouldn’t waste one peso on that book for this huge mistaken “street survival tip”. :frowning:

D

50

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I do TKD, which I know is basically worthless for self-defense. But, aren’t most martial arts the same? Afterall, you still spar from a set position, while most fights are spontaneous or assassination-style surprise attacks.

Wrestlers have an edge in MMA but what if you try to drive your fingers through your opponents eyes? Wrestlers get close to their opponent — so I’d try to blind the guy or try to bite his throat. So wrestling only works if there are rules. I have done Kina Mutai, which seems more realistic.

What’s good training for actual and realistic self-defense? Ideas?[/quote]

i’d say wrestling and i’d have to disagree with your notion that it only works with rules.

competitive wrestling only works with rules but if you aren’t after scoring points or a pin, you can really fuck a guy up. wrestling is great for learning to read body movements and to control a fight as most moves teach you to control anothers body and make it do what you want. extrapolate take downs from a relatively soft mat to a concrete street and you can win a fight with one move in some cases.

you could poke any body in the eye but try to poke such a small target on a wrestler especially and your extended arm will be an invitation to toss you around a number of ways.

any fighting style will give an edge, mostly in the form of general experience. all styles follow rules that would have to be ignored in the practicality of a street fight.

but, punching is a very basic attack that even kids do naturally.

i find it far more advantageous to be able to pick a guy up with little resistance and slam him back down, then jump on him and start swinging.

and wrestling teaches that best. (the slamming. punching is pretty natural.)

you can bet any fight that ends up on the ground will give a wrestler advantage, and most fights with a wrestler will end up on the ground.

51

Yeah I really think boxing, wrestling, judo, bjj, thai boxing…though many critics scoff at their ‘rules’ and say they won’t work in the ‘street’, really work. Athletes who train their sports realistically are tough to deal with. If you wanna bite and eye gouge and that’s all you know you must realize the grappler knows that too and will wrap you up so you can’t do it. I train mostly in bjj, people have tried to bite/gouge me before, it is a joke to deal with if that’s their whole game. Now, trying to deal with a good wrestler who can defend the takedown and throw solid punches, or a guy who is really good at takedowns and great at bjj, that is much tougher for me.

Any one can learn a few foul tactics and may beat a similar level athlete who is unwilling to do the same foul tactics, sure. But if a guy trains realistic bjj, wrestling, boxing at a high level, he is probably gonna do better than someone who’s strategy is to poke you or bite you. That’s based on what I’ve seen. And I’ve been involved in martial arts since a very early age and have seen many TMA’s and street lethal styles left wanting after an encounter with a decent combat athlete. Wrestler, boxer, bjj’er etc.

52

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I do TKD, which I know is basically worthless for self-defense. But, aren’t most martial arts the same? Afterall, you still spar from a set position, while most fights are spontaneous or assassination-style surprise attacks.

Wrestlers have an edge in MMA but what if you try to drive your fingers through your opponents eyes? Wrestlers get close to their opponent — so I’d try to blind the guy or try to bite his throat. So wrestling only works if there are rules. I have done Kina Mutai, which seems more realistic.

What’s good training for actual and realistic self-defense? Ideas?[/quote]

I think it pretty much all comes down to how hard you think about applications and how often and hard you practice. There are dangerous people in all kinds of martial arts from kung fu styles to sambo or TKD. There are even more jackasses in each style. For my money, the “what style” argument is not very fruitful.

When you are a master (or “expert student”) in any art, a punch is just like any other punch and a kick is just like any other kick, to paraphrase Bruce Lee (don’t kill me for bringing him into the thread!). Use the right tool for the job, and styles be damned. Besides, a guy who’s thinking hard and obsessing about his art is going to unconsciously adapt its striking style to what he encounters.

Aside from quacks and jackasses, I think that what MA you study influences your mindset for fighting. Therefore, all practice/authenticity/focus questions aside, what the “style” argument comes down to is a combination of the mindset you adapt and the environment you are fighting in. wide open spaces = long/wide stances, large movements, less circling. Small spaces = close/narrow stances, straight or looping short strikes, and more circling footwork to maximize the use of available space and angles of attack.

My personal, and very biased, favorites are–

hands–wing chun, muay thai, and choy lay fut.

feet–muay thai, assorted chinese styles, even TKD (they have the widest assortment of kicks I’ve seen. Most of them could be useful if you were taught by a good authentic instructor–TKD in asia is very diff. from those schools ‘taught’ in the States).

submission–jujitsu.

Of course I’m assuming that the person actually takes the same intensity, critical thought, and obsession over detail T-folk use in weights to thinking about their fighting skills. In other words, training hard every day–none of this half assed training 2x a week and calling yourself an expert nonsense. Ie–the Bruce Lee passion (again, don’t kill me–I’m thinking historically here).

Once again, anything can be used effectively if you apply intense training and hard thinking daily. Also, you must keep yourself from being ingrained with “competitive rules”. Not that they’re bad, just that if in a street fight, you don’t want to be thinking about so-called illegal strikes as being forbidden.

53

[quote]Steve4192 wrote:

Seriously, you should not pursue martial arts in order to become Billy Badass in a street fight, because more often than not weapons and/or multiple attackers become a real issue. In those instances, hand to hand combat is pretty much worthless and you are much better off packing heat or running away.[/quote]

I actually think that multiple attackers can be fairly defensible, if and only if you are able and willing to go straight to maiming people. In other words, eat a couple punches while slipping a guy’s stance and then break his arm and move to the next guy.

Don’t try to knock him out, just fight to win and do it fast. Break anything you can reach, small joint control (often overlooked in MA), everything. Weapons are much harder/impossible to defend with mult. attackers, and legal issues are aside from my post.

The best thing to do in any case is run away and forget your ego.

On another note, the ART of focusing your body so finely on one thing is a great reason to do MA in the first place. Calm mind, calm focus. Less stress.

54

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

I’ve seen boxers knock guys out in less than three punches in the street, and I know wrestlers that will have you on the ground in seconds… and then are pounding your face in.

Most guys don’t know how to punch, have no endurance, no balance, and shitty reflexes (especially when they’re drunk). Take any boxer and throw him against that, and you’re fuckin dead.[/quote]

Ditto that. Here’s another solution–don’t get drunk and keep your wits about you in the 1st place!

55

[quote]Taquito wrote:
USMC?

Join the military and they’ll teach you how to be billy badass with or without weapons. It does seem very ironic to increase your chance of dying to an insane degree to learn to protect yourself, but I’m just sayin’ thats the best option. The goal is to kill an opponent in a street fight situation, in which your opponent wants to kill you and will do so given the chance. I doesn’t get more real life than that.

Alternatively doing wrestling and boxing will help immensely if you just want to win schoolyard fights.[/quote]

i’ve seen more cocky marines have their asses handed to them then i have seen win a fight, unless they all jump in together.

56

I have a tendency to string posts together as I think of more things to say or people to respond to, so I apologize for doing it again :).

This has actually been a really interesting thread on the topic. It’s been a lot better than most of the other MA threads I’ve seen here anyway. So, keep it up.

On the subject of intensity. I mentioned it in my post, and other did as well, especially that 1st linked article. Basically, I think one reason a lot of MAs get bad reps in the modern world is that we no longer train with the same mindset the founders and martial ancestors did. The mental mindset is just as crucial, maybe more so, as the technical and physical training. In fact, the mindset you train with will dictact the type, intensity, and frequency of your physical practice.

We went from a system of teaching MA where you had daily (instead of weekly) classes, daily bone hardening drills, daily sparring, and daily mental training with the mindset of deadly importance to a system where you might have 1 or 2 weekly classes for 1-2 hours for “self defense”. Is it any wonder MA classes on the whole are degraded in quality?

Of course, reasons for these changes are obvious: more food, more police, wealth, the rule of law, and technical advances with a widespread availability of firearms. Also, maybe especially, a sedentary society that largely shuns physical exertion, even as it idolizes the icons of physical culture.

But suppose you tap into this survival mindset for each and every daily practice session and spar as much as you can. The first thing that comes to mind is that it is a lot easier to tap into the focus if you adopt a lifestyle of moderation or discipline, even seclusion (which is not really possible in modern times). The practical side of living in a MA school full time or in a monestary becomes immediately apparent. The second is that it is much easier if you calm your mind with meditation before and after your practice and remove all distractions from your mind. The third is that you become much better much faster. The fourth is that your mind becomes much more prone to think about applications or analyze MA in general in your daily life–accelerating your learning.

I make no false claims of “warriorhood” or anything, but my mindset has for a long time been accepting of the classical chinese or japanese warrior outlook. It’s helped pretty much every area of my life. Lately I’ve been evolving a bit towards fully adopting much of those philosophies. The warrior ethic is far from useless in the modern day. In some sense I have become an aspiring ascetic, although I’m sure my modern life belies my mental intentions. Ok, I’m rambling, I’ve got to get home and get some food in me.

57

[quote]Dedicated wrote:

I beg to differ sir. Anyone who remembers The Renegade (Lorenzo Lamas) knows his flowing locks enhanced his fighting abilities and helped him takedown countless bad guys. It also made him look cool. I wouldn’t waste one peso on that book for this huge mistaken “street survival tip”. :frowning:

D[/quote]

You are correct. Reno Raines was a bad ass. So was Samson.

I miss my long hair.

58

[quote]Scrappy wrote:
Yeah I really think boxing, wrestling, judo, bjj, thai boxing…though many critics scoff at their ‘rules’ and say they won’t work in the ‘street’, really work. [/quote]

People live in a false world where they think going all “crazy” on a guy will do anything to a trained athlete. A boxer would pick their face apart, and a judo guy would have them on the ground so fast that the “crazy” guy will be lucky if he doesn’t get a concussion.

Plus, untrained people who fight are spent after 30 seconds. They blow they adrenaline load and start to quiver. It’s really funny, as sometimes they lose such control over their emotions they literally start crying.

I’ll pick the guy who in competition has looked across from someone who wants to do him serious harm over the “crazy” man unconstrained by rules. People who have never competed don’t get how each competition trains the competitor to be totally in control of his emotions and body while under stress.

Fighting on the street is like anything else: Preparation helps. You can’t expect to give a great speech before a large crowd if you just “wing” the speech. You need to do some public speaking and practice your speech and learn how to control your breath. Likewise, you can’t expect to win a fight against someone who has trained for such situations and is in total control over his body.

But I am preaching to the choir. Those not in the “choir” know in their hearts they would inflict massive damage on someone who, over the course of several years, has spent several hours a week training how to fight because; well, fuck it, they would go crazy in a fight!

59

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
I have a tendency to string posts together as I think of more things to say or people to respond to, so I apologize for doing it again :).

This has actually been a really interesting thread on the topic. It’s been a lot better than most of the other MA threads I’ve seen here anyway. So, keep it up.

On the subject of intensity. I mentioned it in my post, and other did as well, especially that 1st linked article. Basically, I think one reason a lot of MAs get bad reps in the modern world is that we no longer train with the same mindset the founders and martial ancestors did. The mental mindset is just as crucial, maybe more so, as the technical and physical training. In fact, the mindset you train with will dictact the type, intensity, and frequency of your physical practice.

We went from a system of teaching MA where you had daily (instead of weekly) classes, daily bone hardening drills, daily sparring, and daily mental training with the mindset of deadly importance to a system where you might have 1 or 2 weekly classes for 1-2 hours for “self defense”. Is it any wonder MA classes on the whole are degraded in quality?

Of course, reasons for these changes are obvious: more food, more police, wealth, the rule of law, and technical advances with a widespread availability of firearms. Also, maybe especially, a sedentary society that largely shuns physical exertion, even as it idolizes the icons of physical culture.

But suppose you tap into this survival mindset for each and every daily practice session and spar as much as you can. The first thing that comes to mind is that it is a lot easier to tap into the focus if you adopt a lifestyle of moderation or discipline, even seclusion (which is not really possible in modern times). The practical side of living in a MA school full time or in a monestary becomes immediately apparent. The second is that it is much easier if you calm your mind with meditation before and after your practice and remove all distractions from your mind. The third is that you become much better much faster. The fourth is that your mind becomes much more prone to think about applications or analyze MA in general in your daily life–accelerating your learning.

I make no false claims of “warriorhood” or anything, but my mindset has for a long time been accepting of the classical chinese or japanese warrior outlook. It’s helped pretty much every area of my life. Lately I’ve been evolving a bit towards fully adopting much of those philosophies. The warrior ethic is far from useless in the modern day. In some sense I have become an aspiring ascetic, although I’m sure my modern life belies my mental intentions. Ok, I’m rambling, I’ve got to get home and get some food in me. [/quote]

Great thought Aragorn. Don’t hesitate to string more as they come to you!

I come from the same background as you. I started training in a bad ass school that would have bone-hardening work and intense physical practice. Unfortunately, it degraded slowly over the course of the 10 years I spent there, as my sense? quit his day job to get a full-time living out of the school. That marked the downfall of the dojo.

It still was one of the biggest one in town, but because it now appealed to kids and parents who wanted to try something new, taking up “recreational” martial arts. That’s the day I quit. The mindset wasn’t into it, plus the techniques had been adapted down so anyone could do them, and they picked up big on the point fight system, instead of practicing light touch fighting only once in a while.

Sad…

60

[quote]texasguy wrote:
Taquito wrote:
USMC?

Join the military and they’ll teach you how to be billy badass with or without weapons. It does seem very ironic to increase your chance of dying to an insane degree to learn to protect yourself, but I’m just sayin’ thats the best option. The goal is to kill an opponent in a street fight situation, in which your opponent wants to kill you and will do so given the chance. I doesn’t get more real life than that.

Alternatively doing wrestling and boxing will help immensely if you just want to win schoolyard fights.

i’ve seen more cocky marines have their asses handed to them then i have seen win a fight, unless they all jump in together.
[/quote]

Allow me to explain why Marines get themselves beat up. Back when I was in Japan a bunch of us decided to go to Roppongi. Well I’m sitting in this club called Gas Panic hitting on some Belgian ambassador’s daughter when my buddy comes up to me and says, " Lt. Jones [name omitted because he’s an idiot] was talking shit to some guy and just got knocked out in Wall Street!"

Moral of the story: When you are drunk, pissed off and looking for a fight, don’t talk shit to TITO ORTIZ.

mike