It would have been safer and at least equally effective to use half the dose for twice the time. Or longer.
Halving yet again the individual dosage to daily instead of every other day would be better as well.
The individual injections are so small then that sub-Q is fine and the injections are really no big deal.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
It would have been safer and at least equally effective to use half the dose for twice the time. Or longer.
Halving yet again the individual dosage to daily instead of every other day would be better as well.
The individual injections are so small then that sub-Q is fine and the injections are really no big deal.[/quote]
Agreed.
Probably try to do that next time. She was unwilling to inject herself and the eod injections were partially my desire to avoid responsibility for daily injections. She may be able to do sub-Q herself
Testolius so ar your advice has been some of the best as far as the dosage goes. In particular I want to try Anavar because I’ve heard and read that it is the best and safest for women.
And what I didn’t mention before is that I eat anywhere from 5-7 meals depending on my day, one of those is usually weight gainer and I have been working with my Uncle who has been a personal trainer for 20+ years.
Even he has noticed that I have come to a stand still in my training and is trying to come up with diff. options and is also considering me taking steriods.
Thanks again for everyones input!!
This really is nothing against the OP at all, I just thought I’d throw this out there. A lot of people on here are offering advice to her, telling us that she can make her own decisions, but any 21 yr old dude would be told he’s too young and to wait and “advise against” and all that.
What I think is that if someone wants to take something and they are looking for advice, if you have the knowledge, help, if not, don’t say shit.
I think that if a guy has had sex, has chest hair, pays bills, buys his own food, has a steady job, lifts like he has a purpose, and understands steroids to a good extent, then even if he’s 18-21, he should be able to do as he pleases.
Everyone already understands that telling him he’s too young or whatever the case may be is not going to do a damn thing. At least offer up some good advice about a cycle.
Personally, I think that steroids are a little extreme for a chick, but I think that if a girl is going to be a fitness/figure/bodybuilder, then thats your life, do it, but if it’s just for a job, work harder and you can get to the strength you need to.
Seriously, a year ago, I couldn’t do a pullup, now I’m doing sets of 10. It’s really not worth messing with your hormones if doing something like figure/fitness/bodybuilding is not your life.
just my 2 (maybe 20) cents
[quote]rmloy1121 wrote:
Testolius so ar your advice has been some of the best as far as the dosage goes. In particular I want to try Anavar because I’ve heard and read that it is the best and safest for women.
And what I didn’t mention before is that I eat anywhere from 5-7 meals depending on my day, one of those is usually weight gainer and I have been working with my Uncle who has been a personal trainer for 20+ years.
Even he has noticed that I have come to a stand still in my training and is trying to come up with diff. options and is also considering me taking steriods.[/quote]
So?
Most androgenized women in the fitness/bodybuilding realm have boyfriends or male relatives who thought they should do it and advised them on it. Actually, “most” is probably an understatement.
Also keep in mind that what was a success story for one woman may be a disaster for another. I question whether you are really grasping that.
[quote]BJammin wrote:
This really is nothing against the OP at all, I just thought I’d throw this out there. A lot of people on here are offering advice to her, telling us that she can make her own decisions, but any 21 yr old dude would be told he’s too young and to wait and “advise against” and all that.
What I think is that if someone wants to take something and they are looking for advice, if you have the knowledge, help, if not, don’t say shit.
I think that if a guy has had sex, has chest hair, pays bills, buys his own food, has a steady job, lifts like he has a purpose, and understands steroids to a good extent, then even if he’s 18-21, he should be able to do as he pleases. Everyone already understands that telling him he’s too young or whatever the case may be is not going to do a damn thing. At least offer up some good advice about a cycle.
Personally, I think that steroids are a little extreme for a chick, but I think that if a girl is going to be a fitness/figure/bodybuilder, then thats your life, do it, but if it’s just for a job, work harder and you can get to the strength you need to.
Seriously, a year ago, I couldn’t do a pullup, now I’m doing sets of 10. It’s really not worth messing with your hormones if doing something like figure/fitness/bodybuilding is not your life.
just my 2 (maybe 20) cents[/quote]
To clarify, are you saying that male adults with a decent understanding of AAS should take them as they please, but women with the same level of understanding should not unless they are going to be professional physique competitors?
If they like wrecking their voices and experiencing other androgenizing effects then of course that is their right.
Problem is, most androgenized women did not actually want to wind up that way, having been sold a bill of goods from a person failing to provide complete and accurate information, usually not even coming close (typically a steroid-using boyfriend, but who the individual or source was does not really matter.)
Obviously not everything works the same for everyone. And yes anyone can just go and say you should try steriods whether they have any experience or not. My uncle is someone that has been in the biz for 20+ years and has been around and experienced a lot of things.
I would not have made a post if I knew 100% what I was doing. I posted for people’s advice that know more about the topic than I do, that can help in my decision because it is a very serious one.
And also, I’m not doing this just for a job, it has always been something that I wanted to try. I am considering getting more seriously into body building and competing and as soon as I finish this semester of school I am planning on pursuing that.
I’ll amend my ststement then as you raise a good point:
A lot of androgenized women in the fitness/bodybuilding realm have boyfriends or male relatives with very many years of experience in the field who got them to do it.
The point being, the fact that such a person is in favor while it may predictably have standing with you, really proves nothing to others and changes nothing on overall advisability for a 21 year old woman whose stated problem is a relatively brief period of no gains.
Now it could be that you added it as a completely random statement not intended to have any bearing on anything, but I assumed you meant it as being relevant in some way. Perhaps I was in error there.
You know, I think that if you check with or search for yourselves the experiences of other women, not using steroids, in the Strength forum or elsewhere, you’ll find many that have more years of experience than you do that have been where you are – a period of not making gains – and have made enormous progress since then.
Sure, “woe is me!” is easier, but at the age of 21 the argument that you just can’t make good progress without drugs is skewed at best – regardless of your uncle with 20 years experience thinking you should take androgen steroids or suggesting you should consider it. Lots of people get bad advice from an uncle.
Here is something else to consider, and is the same thig I tell my young male friends who want to try steroids…
What are your parenthood hopes/wishes/plans?
Long term steroid use can cause sterility in men…what is ‘long-term’…who knows? I assume the same is true for women…maybe moreso.
The woman I was working with was well past child-bearing age, so was not an issue, but if you want to have kids some day (same is true for guys), I would look long and hard before taking the jump.
No steroid advice here, but if you are planning to test for a FD, you will most likely be drug tested( yes that may anabolics)and submit to a polygraph. My suggestion would be to wait until after you are on the job to start, if you do.
For female use, a starting point of 5mg every day of Anavar or oral Turinabol are good options. Oral Primo or NPP may also be an option. Side effects should be minimal or non-existant. Winny is very androgenic and not such a good idea.
A good documentary on oral Turinabol use in female East German athletes during the 70’s…
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/video-chapters/doping-for-gold-chapter-1
The link doesn’t work, at least not at the moment, but if it is what I think it is, I think you did not read it in detail or if you did did not grasp everything in it.
One woman in the program, for example, on an average dose averaging over the year just under 8 mg/day – not greatly more than your figure of 5 mg/day as supposedly being something a woman can have confidence in as being safe – experienced quite dramatic virilizing effects:
Yes I know that in practice she did not take the same dose every day. It’s been years so I don’t recall what her daily dosage typically was. However it was not orders of magnitude different than the 5 mg figure and individual variation is enough to make 5 mg for one woman comparable to several times that for another in terms of virilizing effect. This still serves as an adequate illustration regarding OT.
The most notoriously mannish, virilized female athletes in the world were the East German women (or do we need quote marks for that term?) of that era, and the drug that did it was largely OT. Brilliant.
I don’t want to be rude but frankly I’m tired of posts alleging that given doses should be considered safe, in terms of being non-virilizing, for women they really know nothing about and certainly know nothing about what their individual tolerance is, with absolutely zero indication in their posts that there is also a risk of permanent adverse effects.
Oh boy, you read a fucking article on the Internet or bought a book by a steroid dealer or personally know three or whatever women that did okay – or even if it is 10, the principle applies – therefore you know what you are saying is safe for any other woman. “A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.”
I hope that trite response wasn’t directed at me. 5mg is a pretty damn conservative dose, especially when the less androgenic steroids are used.
Minimal to non-existant specifies a range, which means some women at that dose will get side effects! My knowledge base is a little more extensive than what you outlined.
Yeah, “trite.”
Obviously I need to be more concise, direct, and plain for you to grasp it:
Your post, especially combined with your further response showing you did not comprehend my reply, demonstrated the thought processes of a hopeless moron, and a degree of responsibility fitting only for a complete degenerate.
Ignorant “advice” such as yours on such a serious subject does a disservice to all that are unfortunate enough to read it, particularly those that don’t have the information to know that you are a dumbfuck on the subject matter in question, and in fact are the worst sort of dumbfuck: the type that thinks he has “extensive” knowledge.
If you had a single cell of grey matter functioning properly you would know that the East German database you cite shows OT to have a HIGH incidence of virilizing side effects at no particularly high amount of milligrams, not low as you claim for OT. Yours is probably the stupidest pair of posts on AAS use for women that I have ever read, and I have been in this for a while.
Bill it’s so sexy when you chew people out in an intelligent way, it really turns me on…
Firstly, Bill your posts never cease to educate. Even when you brutally rip a new one in someone. Riding across the heavens in his golden chariot he rides across the heavens enlightening our minds regarding the use of AAS and crushing all those that oppose him. Awesome thread vets. Secondly, I call dibs on the OP as she is in fact a very good looking woman and her yield from this experience will make her that much better in my opinion.
And lastly, the honeyglazed buns kid dude what are you smoking? You’re 18, weigh a scale crushing 123lbs and you try, no, dare offer input on what to do in regards to gaining muscle mass. Put on at least 60lbs naturally and then start slingin around your two cents. This is a very fascinating subject to me and I hope I can see it reach fruition. End of mild thread jack.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Yeah, “trite.”
Obviously I need to be more concise, direct, and plain for you to grasp it:
Your post, especially combined with your further response showing you did not comprehend my reply, demonstrated the thought processes of a hopeless moron, and a degree of responsibility fitting only for a complete degenerate.
Ignorant “advice” such as yours on such a serious subject does a disservice to all that are unfortunate enough to read it, particularly those that don’t have the information to know that you are a dumbfuck on the subject matter in question, and in fact are the worst sort of dumbfuck: the type that thinks he has “extensive” knowledge.
If you had a single cell of grey matter functioning properly you would know that the East German database you cite shows OT to have a HIGH incidence of virilizing side effects at no particularly high amount of milligrams, not low as you claim for OT. Yours is probably the stupidest pair of posts on AAS use for women that I have ever read, and I have been in this for a while. [/quote]
Come on Bill, tell me how you really feel. 
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
I’ll amend my ststement then as you raise a good point:
A lot of androgenized women in the fitness/bodybuilding realm have boyfriends or male relatives with very many years of experience in the field who got them to do it.
The point being, the fact that such a person is in favor while it may predictably have standing with you, really proves nothing to others and changes nothing on overall advisability for a 21 year old woman whose stated problem is a relatively brief period of no gains.
Now it could be that you added it as a completely random statement not intended to have any bearing on anything, but I assumed you meant it as being relevant in some way. Perhaps I was in error there.
You know, I think that if you check with or search for yourselves the experiences of other women, not using steroids, in the Strength forum or elsewhere, you’ll find many that have more years of experience than you do that have been where you are – a period of not making gains – and have made enormous progress since then.
Sure, “woe is me!” is easier, but at the age of 21 the argument that you just can’t make good progress without drugs is skewed at best – regardless of your uncle with 20 years experience thinking you should take androgen steroids or suggesting you should consider it. Lots of people get bad advice from an uncle.[/quote]
Agreed. You can’t always gain, even on AAS traing can stagnate. Overtraining occurs and you have to scale back for a while heal the body, then hit the training hard again once you are better.
East German Database? It’s a PBS documentary for christ’s sake. Lay off the Masteron… it’s making you irritable as fuck. Instead of debating a point, you’re going off the deep end, Christian Bale style.
I was using the Vida reference numbers for Oral Turinabol; 53/6, anabolic/androgenic ratio. I have a PDF copy right in front of me. “Androgens and Anabolic Agents; Chemistry and Pharmacology”, Julius A. Vida, 1969. This is the reference most often cited for oral Turinabol’s anabolic/androgenic ratios.
While these numbers aren’t perfect they do give an overall indication of it’s virilizing effects. Anecdotally it doesn’t appear to be very androgenic either. I stand by my statement.
If I can recall correctly, these women were using well in excess of 5mg per day… some closer to 35mg. Of course they’re going to get side effects at that dose. To also think they were only using oral Turinabol is a little niave. One of the female shot putters whom ended up getting a sex change, was using much more androgenic steroids in addition to OT.
Instead of spewing more vitriol, why don’t you back up your statements and have a civil discussion? Or would you rather not converse with a peon such as myself?