Feedback From Meat

mcl · October 16, 2009, 10:48pm

DL form questions (I’ll try to get a video next Friday):

shoulders: forward or back throughout pull?
1a) if forward, is lockout considered having them back at the top, or can they still be forward?
exactly how hard should one be leaning back on the bottom half of the pull? Even with sweats, I’m banging the hell out of my shins at heavier weights all the way up? Are we talking just “lean back enough so there’s bar contact”, or “pull the thing up your shins like they’re a ramp”?
why would the top half of my pull feel like a very slow slide up my thighs rather than the explosive motion it’s supposed to be? Even if I’m constantly thinking “fuck the bar” and trying to impregnate the thing as soon as it passes my knees, it seems like I get to about mid-thigh (where my hands hang naturally), and then I’m struggling slowly to get my shoulders back because it doesn’t feel like my back’s straight. The humping motion basically gets me half way up my thighs, and I wind up shrugging the weight to get it to what I feel is “the rest of the way”. (see also questions 1 and 1a).

I know it’s hard to diagnose my particular form problem without a video, but I’m hoping those questions are general enough that they don’t need a video to answer.

By the way, thanks for the whole “backwards, then forwards” comment earlier, Meat. That finally made the DL movement click in my head for me. I can really feel it at lighter weights, but the heavier I go, the more the questions above loom in my mind. Possibly because at lighter weights I’m actually lifting with my shoulders back for the entire movement, which makes the bar-hump in the top half bring me to a naturally erect state (no pun intended!) But with my shoulders back at heavier weights, it feels like I’m trying to pick the bar up rather than use my arms like cables.

SteelyD · October 19, 2009, 3:59pm

Senior Carne,

Kinda frustrated with my pin-presses.

I did some benching, then my next exercise was close-grip pinpresses (at a height equal to a 3-board press). Grip width was just about shoulder width where my forearms are parallel at the top of the press (not toward each other).

Now, I had just repped 320 on a HS Bench, and I’m repping near 300 on the regular bench (calculated max is about 315).

I go to pinpress, and it’s all I can do to get 225 off the pins (3 deadstop reps). When I CGBP with half a foam-pad (about the same height, maybe slightly closer to chest), I can rep 10 @ 225.

Any ideas? Sucky-assed weak triceps?

Gracias, dude.

mcl · October 19, 2009, 6:26pm

[quote]mcl wrote:
DL form questions (I’ll try to get a video next Friday):

shoulders: forward or back throughout pull?
1a) if forward, is lockout considered having them back at the top, or can they still be forward?
exactly how hard should one be leaning back on the bottom half of the pull? Even with sweats, I’m banging the hell out of my shins at heavier weights all the way up? Are we talking just “lean back enough so there’s bar contact”, or “pull the thing up your shins like they’re a ramp”?
why would the top half of my pull feel like a very slow slide up my thighs rather than the explosive motion it’s supposed to be? Even if I’m constantly thinking “fuck the bar” and trying to impregnate the thing as soon as it passes my knees, it seems like I get to about mid-thigh (where my hands hang naturally), and then I’m struggling slowly to get my shoulders back because it doesn’t feel like my back’s straight. The humping motion basically gets me half way up my thighs, and I wind up shrugging the weight to get it to what I feel is “the rest of the way”. (see also questions 1 and 1a).

I know it’s hard to diagnose my particular form problem without a video, but I’m hoping those questions are general enough that they don’t need a video to answer.

By the way, thanks for the whole “backwards, then forwards” comment earlier, Meat. That finally made the DL movement click in my head for me. I can really feel it at lighter weights, but the heavier I go, the more the questions above loom in my mind. Possibly because at lighter weights I’m actually lifting with my shoulders back for the entire movement, which makes the bar-hump in the top half bring me to a naturally erect state (no pun intended!) But with my shoulders back at heavier weights, it feels like I’m trying to pick the bar up rather than use my arms like cables.[/quote]

Aha. Someone at T-Nation must be reading my mind (or my posts!) This answered my questions: Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION

So, basically:

forward
1a) lockout is shoulders back
somewhere in between
because I’m pulling sumo, my legs are locked out long before I’m erect, so I have to finish the lift with nothing but my back and shoulders. I’d forgotten that little mechanic of sumo. I’ve been meaning to rotate back to conventional for a while since I’ve been doing sumo for several cycles now. I’ll give it a go this week (along with taking some video of sumo and conventional at the same weight) and see what feels better for the upper portion of the movement.

maraudermeat · October 20, 2009, 2:12pm

[quote]mcl wrote:
mcl wrote:
DL form questions (I’ll try to get a video next Friday):

shoulders: forward or back throughout pull?
1a) if forward, is lockout considered having them back at the top, or can they still be forward?
exactly how hard should one be leaning back on the bottom half of the pull? Even with sweats, I’m banging the hell out of my shins at heavier weights all the way up? Are we talking just “lean back enough so there’s bar contact”, or “pull the thing up your shins like they’re a ramp”?
why would the top half of my pull feel like a very slow slide up my thighs rather than the explosive motion it’s supposed to be? Even if I’m constantly thinking “fuck the bar” and trying to impregnate the thing as soon as it passes my knees, it seems like I get to about mid-thigh (where my hands hang naturally), and then I’m struggling slowly to get my shoulders back because it doesn’t feel like my back’s straight. The humping motion basically gets me half way up my thighs, and I wind up shrugging the weight to get it to what I feel is “the rest of the way”. (see also questions 1 and 1a).

I know it’s hard to diagnose my particular form problem without a video, but I’m hoping those questions are general enough that they don’t need a video to answer.

By the way, thanks for the whole “backwards, then forwards” comment earlier, Meat. That finally made the DL movement click in my head for me. I can really feel it at lighter weights, but the heavier I go, the more the questions above loom in my mind. Possibly because at lighter weights I’m actually lifting with my shoulders back for the entire movement, which makes the bar-hump in the top half bring me to a naturally erect state (no pun intended!) But with my shoulders back at heavier weights, it feels like I’m trying to pick the bar up rather than use my arms like cables.

Aha. Someone at T-Nation must be reading my mind (or my posts!) This answered my questions: Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION

So, basically:

forward
1a) lockout is shoulders back
somewhere in between
because I’m pulling sumo, my legs are locked out long before I’m erect, so I have to finish the lift with nothing but my back and shoulders. I’d forgotten that little mechanic of sumo. I’ve been meaning to rotate back to conventional for a while since I’ve been doing sumo for several cycles now. I’ll give it a go this week (along with taking some video of sumo and conventional at the same weight) and see what feels better for the upper portion of the movement.

[/quote]

that’s a pretty basic look at both lifts.

here’s how i would answer those questions-

shoulders should be rounded forward but behind or at the most over the bar to start.

1a. you don’t have to shrug them back but as long as they are behind the bar and you are standing erect, you are doing fine…now some feds are micromanagers and want to see those shoulders wayyyy back… i don’t compete in those:)

the weight should follow your legs all the way up, but you don’t want to allow the weight to rest on any part of your body- that’s ramping and a really bad habit to get into. following the line of your body protects the lower back and keeps the weight from getting out in front of you.
yeah… if your legs are locked out once the weight reaches your knees, then you are locking out too soon. also, your bar speed could need a tune up. start throwing in some speed sets where you are forcefully locking out the weight at the top.

jjackkrash · October 21, 2009, 12:02pm

Meat, I just wanted to say thanks for your help. I really appreciate it. I will continue to work on your suggestions.

Jack

maraudermeat · October 22, 2009, 1:05pm

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Senior Carne,

Kinda frustrated with my pin-presses.

I did some benching, then my next exercise was close-grip pinpresses (at a height equal to a 3-board press). Grip width was just about shoulder width where my forearms are parallel at the top of the press (not toward each other).

Now, I had just repped 320 on a HS Bench, and I’m repping near 300 on the regular bench (calculated max is about 315).

I go to pinpress, and it’s all I can do to get 225 off the pins (3 deadstop reps). When I CGBP with half a foam-pad (about the same height, maybe slightly closer to chest), I can rep 10 @ 225.

Any ideas? Sucky-assed weak triceps?

Gracias, dude.[/quote]

i think you know what i’m going to say:) first, it could be your form on these. my training partner, dave has a lot of issues with pin presses as well. he has a hard time finding that sweet spot. when doing any partial movement bar placement for the start and end of the movement is very important for safety and developing strength in that particular movement. when determining proper starting position, you have to look at your normal bar path on a full ROM bench. when limiting the range of motion with a board or pin press, the starting position will be where it is in a full ROM press… if that makes sense.

for example, when doing foam presses, my forearms aren’t perpendicular to the foam as the bar touches the foam. the reason is because in a normal full ROM press my arms don’t reach perpendicular until the bar is at my chest. therefore, to try and get my forearms perpendicular on a foam press would require me to bring the bar much lower on the foam. doing so greatly decreases my leverage and increases my chances of injury.

so, the height of the partial movement will dictate bar placement and body position.

also, doing higher partial movements take much of the pecs out of the movement. you are most likely weaker right now because the shoulders and triceps are doing most of the work. i know that my shoulders are getting most of the work right now on the foam presses. but that is my goal since i need a stronger lockout and a more controlled bar path.

hopefully this isn’t as confusing as it sounds to me.

bottom line… just because it’s a partial movement doens’t mean your going to be stronger at it. there are many variables including bar path and muscle group interactions. just be aware of what your body and the bar is doing during the different phases of a lift. then when you focus on one phase, try to duplicate that bar path and body position.

hope this helps…

SteelyD · October 22, 2009, 1:30pm

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:

<< form, positioning, plus you’re a weak-ass bitch >>

[/quote]

Thanks! I know exactly what you’re talking about with respect to finding the correct placement at that point in the ROM of the bar. I’ve experimented a little with it and I know it’s a little closer to the top of my chest/neck (vs. lower near lower chest).

I know that my grip is closer than normal, but that was on purpose because I want to work the tri’s more.

Hearing that from you just drives it home for me. Given what you said, I’ll experiment a little more with finding the ‘sweet spot’ and make sure my form is good. I guess I’ll have to lower the weight a little, too… <hands in pockets, kicks foot in sand>…

mcl · October 24, 2009, 1:13am

I have video!

So, as some of you may remember, I’ve set a goal of a 500 DL by the Dec 31, 2009. I’ve successfully rackpulled 475 from a low shin position. But I can’t manage to get 455, or even 445, locked out. I get it to above my knees all the time, but no further.

Meat, here’s what I hope will be some diagnostic video. Apologies in advance for the repeated closeups of my fat ass.

For the first several lifts, my belt was a notch further out than I’m used to. I hated it that way on squats Friday, but I thought I’d see how it was on deads. By the time I got to 350, I couldn’t stand it and had to take a break and readjust it (I brought my screwdriver as well as my camera today!)

3@275 (70% of 90% of my est. max), conventional, loose belt: - YouTube

3@310 (80% of 90% of my est. max), conventional, loose belt: - YouTube

1@350(90% of 90% of my est. max), conventional, loose belt: - YouTube

1@350, conventional, straps. I switched to straps because my grip was going on that first 350: - YouTube

1@350, sumo, straps, tight belt. At the end of the last video, the looser belt, which I hated on squats, was also starting to tick me off on deads, so I took a short break and moved it back in a notch to where I usually have it. I switched to sumo both because I wanted to give you a look at both my DL variations, and because at heavier weights, I feel much stronger on sumo: - YouTube

1@405, sumo, straps, tight belt: - YouTube

0@445, sumo, straps, tight belt: - YouTube

My 455 (which I didn’t try today) looks and feels identical to the 445 attempt here.

If it’s not obvious from the videos, I’m pulling the bar into my shins. I was bleeding through my sweats from today’s session.

My estimated 100% 1RM is 430. Am I just overreaching? I’ve pulled 425 from the floor without much more trouble than 405, and as I mentioned earlier, I’ve rackpulled 475 from the bottom of my shins.

I feel these mostly in my lower back, and I realized today most of my accessory work is upper-back focused. Besides GMs and GHRs, what else could I do to emphasize my lower back and help break through this plateau?

Thanks in advance for all your excellent advice, Meat.

kimbakimba · October 24, 2009, 4:11pm

Hi Meat! Here is a progress vid on my squat:

I’ve been keeping the weight light and only slowly increasing it while I work on my upper body tightness. In the meantime, my problem du jour is my knees caving in on the way up. It usually doesn’t happen in the first few reps, but as I fatigue this gets noticeable.

I know the cue: push the knees out while coming up. I’m constantly thinking it. Its just that I’m NOT ABLE TO after a certain point in the set.

I’ve gotten a suggestion to put a loose band around my knees and concentrate on pushing against it. My current plan is to stick at 85# for a bit and try to strengthen up whatever weakness is causing this. Any other suggestions on how to work through this? Do you see anything else here that needs fixing?

bgunner · October 26, 2009, 2:43am

Hey MM
This may seem like a strange question, do you ever take the concept of “rowing down” on the bench and apply it to a pulling exercise or lower body exercise?

Thanks for your time,

B

SteelyD · October 26, 2009, 12:13pm

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:

hope this helps…

[/quote]

Just wanted to thank you again for your feedback. I did CG pin presses (equal height to 3 boards) yesterday after I did HS Bench presses again yesterday.

Before I set up under the pins, I set up on the bench and pressed the bar several times (bar alone then with 135#) noting where the bar was at about 3 board height off my chest. I also noted where my elbows were.

I set up under the pins with bar a little higher (ie toward head) on my chest and my elbows out a little than I had previously which helped tremendously. Got several more reps than last week.

U.Da.Man.

Thanks!

maraudermeat · October 27, 2009, 3:55pm

[quote]kimbakimba wrote:
Hi Meat! Here is a progress vid on my squat:

I’ve been keeping the weight light and only slowly increasing it while I work on my upper body tightness. In the meantime, my problem du jour is my knees caving in on the way up. It usually doesn’t happen in the first few reps, but as I fatigue this gets noticeable.

I know the cue: push the knees out while coming up. I’m constantly thinking it. Its just that I’m NOT ABLE TO after a certain point in the set.

I’ve gotten a suggestion to put a loose band around my knees and concentrate on pushing against it. My current plan is to stick at 85# for a bit and try to strengthen up whatever weakness is causing this. Any other suggestions on how to work through this? Do you see anything else here that needs fixing? [/quote]

just watched the vid and your form is definitely coming along nicely:)

i can see you consciously forcing those knees out as you come up, which is good. the knees caving is a byproduct of the weight being in front of your hips. it only takes a little bit of the weight getting in front of you to have your body try to keep balance by having the knees come in.

how to fix-

experiment with foot position- turn your feet out a little more. this will put more of the stress on the hips.

experiment with wider stance. this will also put more focus on the hips.

continue to work on getting and keeping the elbows under the bar with a tight arch, scaps retracted and chest high.

don’t get down on yourself… your form has improved greatly. it just takes time. i would concentrate on the things i mentioned above while also working on improving adductor and abductor strength. if you gym has one of those machines, use it after your squats.

lastly, get yourself a pair of flat soled shoes such as chuck taylors. lace them up really tight. when you spread the floor it helps to have a firm grip on the floor that’s flat footed. i concentrate on pushing out on the seams on my chucks. this will also help keep those knees out.

good luck and keep the vids coming. i enjoy them:)

kimbakimba · October 27, 2009, 4:22pm

[quote] maraudermeat wrote:
just watched the vid and your form is definitely coming along nicely:)

i can see you consciously forcing those knees out as you come up, which is good. the knees caving is a byproduct of the weight being in front of your hips. it only takes a little bit of the weight getting in front of you to have your body try to keep balance by having the knees come in.

how to fix-

experiment with foot position- turn your feet out a little more. this will put more of the stress on the hips.

experiment with wider stance. this will also put more focus on the hips.

continue to work on getting and keeping the elbows under the bar with a tight arch, scaps retracted and chest high.

don’t get down on yourself… your form has improved greatly. it just takes time. i would concentrate on the things i mentioned above while also working on improving adductor and abductor strength. if you gym has one of those machines, use it after your squats.

lastly, get yourself a pair of flat soled shoes such as chuck taylors. lace them up really tight. when you spread the floor it helps to have a firm grip on the floor that’s flat footed. i concentrate on pushing out on the seams on my chucks. this will also help keep those knees out. [/quote]

This helps me so much. Thanks for the advice and encouragement!

[quote]good luck and keep the vids coming. i enjoy them:)
[/quote]

Well, I enjoy the showing so this is workin’ for both of us.

Here is my 160# deadlift – a 25# PR!

I know I need to do a better job of keeping my chest up. Any feedback would be great! What would your advice be on whether training this lift 5/3/1 style for a month or two is a good idea for me?

maraudermeat · October 27, 2009, 5:52pm

[quote]kimbakimba wrote:
maraudermeat wrote:
just watched the vid and your form is definitely coming along nicely:)

i can see you consciously forcing those knees out as you come up, which is good. the knees caving is a byproduct of the weight being in front of your hips. it only takes a little bit of the weight getting in front of you to have your body try to keep balance by having the knees come in.

how to fix-

experiment with foot position- turn your feet out a little more. this will put more of the stress on the hips.

experiment with wider stance. this will also put more focus on the hips.

continue to work on getting and keeping the elbows under the bar with a tight arch, scaps retracted and chest high.

don’t get down on yourself… your form has improved greatly. it just takes time. i would concentrate on the things i mentioned above while also working on improving adductor and abductor strength. if you gym has one of those machines, use it after your squats.

lastly, get yourself a pair of flat soled shoes such as chuck taylors. lace them up really tight. when you spread the floor it helps to have a firm grip on the floor that’s flat footed. i concentrate on pushing out on the seams on my chucks. this will also help keep those knees out.

This helps me so much. Thanks for the advice and encouragement!

good luck and keep the vids coming. i enjoy them:)

Well, I enjoy the showing so this is workin’ for both of us.

Here is my 160# deadlift – a 25# PR!

I know I need to do a better job of keeping my chest up. Any feedback would be great! What would your advice be on whether training this lift 5/3/1 style for a month or two is a good idea for me?

[/quote]

your form has improved greatly on the sumo. you’re still picking the weight up some instead of squatting it up.

instead of doing a 5/3/1 i would like to see you get more explosive with your deadlift. i think you just need to get used to pulling the weight faster. pull the slack out of the bar and then grip and rip that shit!!! having some momentum out of the bottom will do wonders for your lockout.

kimbakimba · October 27, 2009, 6:06pm

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:

your form has improved greatly on the sumo. you’re still picking the weight up some instead of squatting it up.

instead of doing a 5/3/1 i would like to see you get more explosive with your deadlift. i think you just need to get used to pulling the weight faster. pull the slack out of the bar and then grip and rip that shit!!! having some momentum out of the bottom will do wonders for your lockout.
[/quote]

Explosive. Faster. Keep working on squatting the weight up. Got it! Next vid I send you, I’ll be ripping it!

maraudermeat · October 28, 2009, 2:32pm

[quote]bgunner wrote:
Hey MM
This may seem like a strange question, do you ever take the concept of “rowing down” on the bench and apply it to a pulling exercise or lower body exercise?

Thanks for your time,

B[/quote]

i’m a firm believer that ones bent over row should be close to their bench max. i do barbell rows just like i row the weight down during a press.

maraudermeat · October 28, 2009, 2:51pm

[quote]mcl wrote:
I have video!