Fat Adapted?

MetalMX · February 10, 2013, 8:32am

I am pretty sure Gary Taubes book and theory is only applicable to those who cannot lose weight or are obese. It details WHY those people cannot lose weight and that a low-carb approach would be best for this population. He isn’t saying this diet would be the best for say a bodybuilder or cyclist.

What many fail to realize is there are at least 3 other fat storing hormones and probably more we will find out about at some point. One of them is called acylation stimulating protein (ASP). Where insulin is induced by carbs, ASP is induced by fat (this is not good news for those who say you can’t get fat eating fat). AND, in an unfortunate fat storing feedback mechanism both ASP and insulin stimulate the secretion of each other. So, in an indirect way, fat does stimulate insulin & insulin stimulates a fat storing helper ASP.

The third fat storing hormone is a gut produced signaling molecule called glucose-dependent insulinotrophic peptide (GIP). GIP is induced by carbs & fat and to a much lesser extent protein and fiber. GIP has its own fat storing action on LPL AND causes more insulin to be released (here again fat can result in indirect insulin secretion).

The hunger hormone ghrelin is also a fat storing hormone. Ghrelin is released when we forgo food. Not only does it induce hunger AND cravings for sugary fatty and salty foods, but it also increases the action of LPL and even results in more LPL being made so that when you do eat you get fatter quicker. This is because ghrelin increases the mRNA expression of LPL.

Ghrelin should probably be called the Yo-Yo weight gain hormone and those who practice eating less and exercising more are unwittingly raising their ghrelin and fat storing potential. The fact that ghrelin has some positive effects, like raising HGH, does not change these negative consequences. If and when fasters and low calorie dieters resume normal eating, fat gain comes and comes quickly. And this is largely due to ghrelin (ever meet anyone coming off strict diet restriction and getting fat quick? that is ghrelin at work).

Both carbs AND fat can cause fat gain and when they are combined together it is far worse than eating each macro alone.

I’d say:

Calories are most important
Quality of the carbohydrates you eat is important e.g. they should be slow digesting or eaten with protein/veggies/fruits to slow down they’re absorbtion into the body.
Fats are much more easily stored as body fat than carbs. The body is able to store carbs as muscle/liver glycogen.
Protein and fiber have minimal impact on fat storage hormones which is why it is recommended to eat more protein in general when dieting as well as fruits and vegetables because they are lower in calories and higher in fibre.

NikH · February 10, 2013, 10:04am

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
I would say burning glucose for energy in the human body is more like burning ethanol in a gasoline engine.

It can be done but it comes with all sorts of negative consequences to the machinery.
[/quote]

What the f***? This is so horribly wrong? Do you know that glucose is pretty much the only energy we use?

Fats and aminoacids are CONVERTED into glucose when you dont get enough from food, and converting is not optimal.

You should read glycolysis, krebs cycle in wikipedia.

// I didnt read the whole thread but I am just shocked of this post.

NikH · February 10, 2013, 10:06am

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Your brain needs glucose. It prefers it.
[/quote]

No, in fact, it does not prefer it.

Ketogenic diets have been shown to be therapeutic for brain disorders.[/quote]

Yeah children get brain development issues while on ketodiet, very HEALTHY brO

NikH · February 10, 2013, 5:32pm

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
As a trained physicist I am very meticulous about note taking and measuring.[/quote]

What does that even mean? Nobody says “trained physicist”. Obviously you cant even read your own pictures, because the picture you posted in the first page says “glucose - major source of energy”

I am researching gravitational theory right now, what are you doing?

[quote]
I think I already stated that glucose in high levels is toxic. Eating 2 lbs of mashed potatoes is definitely going to be toxic.

I am essentially saying that being a strength athlete and wanting to put on muscle can be achieved on a low carbohydrate diet.[/quote]

I the army we had 80% of carbs in our diet and we ate 5k calories during camping days, while we used about 6k. We were fine.

When I was training for the junior olympics in Judo I ate 3lbs of carb sources (potatos,dry rice, pasta) per day, I was fine, and maintained my sixpack to be in the same weight class. I even drank soda (with sugar) after workouts often, that is the same sugar they put in “recovery drinks” with protein: it replenished my muscle gylcogen storages.

Fat is gonna be stored as fat, and turned into glucose when needed. Glucose is always gonna fuel my glycogen storages first before being stored as fat. And using ketones for brain power is like puting ethanol in your gasoline engine.

edited to make more sense

NikH · February 10, 2013, 10:35am

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
This means I don’t need glycogen to run sprints or to perform a heavy squat routine.[/quote]

No, what this means is that your definition of intensity wrt sprinting and lifting is completely different than that of most serious lifters and athletes.
[/quote]

you are completely wrong.[/quote]

Hahah omg. If you are doing sprinting first thing that happends is your creatinephosphate gives a phosphate for ADP to turn to ATP. When the creatinephosphate storages are depleted which usually takes a few seconds then glycolysis becomes, where the muscle starts breaking glucose, using its glycogen storage. You wont start turning your fats into glucose until your glycogen storages are depleted.

So saying I dont need glycogen for sprints or heavy squats shows a deep misunderstanding in the human energy system

anonym · February 10, 2013, 4:00pm

[quote]NikH wrote:
What the f***? This is so horribly wrong? Do you know that glucose is pretty much the only energy we use?

Fats and aminoacids are CONVERTED into glucose when you dont get enough from food, and converting is not optimal.

You should read glycolysis, krebs cycle in wikipedia.

// I didnt read the whole thread but I am just shocked of this post.[/quote]

The consensus is that there can be no net synthesis of glucose from FA in mammals due to the irreversibility of two of the reactions in the oxidation of FA to acetyl CoA. Since the pyruvate dehydrogenase and pyruvate kinase reactions only proceed in one direction, acetyl CoA can’t be carboxylated to pyruvate for entry into the gluconeogenic pathway.

There’s some evidence that fatty acids with odd-numbered chains and branched-chain fatty acids can be metablized to succinyl CoA for glucose production, but it seems unlikely that this is a significant source of glucose production in people.

You’re probably thinking of the glycerol backbone.

NikH · February 10, 2013, 9:05pm

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]NikH wrote:
What the f***? This is so horribly wrong? Do you know that glucose is pretty much the only energy we use?

Fats and aminoacids are CONVERTED into glucose when you dont get enough from food, and converting is not optimal.

You should read glycolysis, krebs cycle in wikipedia.

// I didnt read the whole thread but I am just shocked of this post.[/quote]

The consensus is that there can be no net synthesis of glucose from FA in mammals due to the irreversibility of two of the reactions in the oxidation of FA to acetyl CoA. Since the pyruvate dehydrogenase and pyruvate kinase reactions only proceed in one direction, acetyl CoA can’t be carboxylated to pyruvate for entry into the gluconeogenic pathway.

There’s some evidence that fatty acids with odd-numbered chains and branched-chain fatty acids can be metablized to succinyl CoA for glucose production, but it seems unlikely that this is a significant source of glucose production in people.

You’re probably thinking of the glycerol backbone.[/quote]

Yeah I am talking about fats in general bro, not fatty acids.

Fat’s include triglyceride = glycerol + 3 fatty acids

Thus, you can convert fats into glucose

NikH · February 10, 2013, 9:10pm

you get ATP from fatty acids through beta-oxidation, krebs cycle and oxidative fosforylation.

Point was to show how misinformed his sentence was: “burning glucose for energy in the human body is more like burning ethanol in a gasoline engine”.

anonym · February 11, 2013, 12:34am

[quote]NikH wrote:
I am talking about fats bro, not fatty acids.[/quote]

Fair enough.

When you prefaced your statement about converting “fats” to glucose with the comment “Do you know that glucose is pretty much the only energy we use?”, the impression I had is that you felt the entire ester was converted to glucose.

My mistake.

anonym · February 10, 2013, 9:22pm

[quote]NikH wrote:
Fat=triglyceride = glycerol + 3 fatty acids[/quote]

[quote]NikH wrote:
you get ATP from fatty acids through beta-oxidation, krebs cycle and oxidative fosforylation.[/quote]

Thanks for the heads up.

NikH · February 11, 2013, 2:49pm

You all know Michael Phelps, swimmer, olympic gold medalist, who swims 5hours a day, eats 12000 kcal per day?

This is quoted from his fan site:

" Phelps trains six days a week and exercises five hours a day, so he is using up the calories that he consumes. He revealed his typical daily diet during an interview that amazed everyone to hear that his breakfast alone includes three fried egg sandwiches with a lot of cheese, lettuce, tomato, fried onions, and mayonnaise. That is only the beginning though. He also drinks two cups of coffee, and eats a five egg omelet, one bowl of grits, which are a maize porridge, three slices of French toast with powdered sugar, and three chocolate chip pancakes.

Michael Phelps DietMost people eat that much in two days, but Michael Phelps? diet must give him the energy he needs. For lunch, he then has one pound of pasta with tomato sauce, two large ham and cheese sandwiches with mayonnaise on white bread, plus energy drinks that equal around 1,000 calories. Dinner includes another pound of pasta with sauce, a whole pizza of six or eight slices, and more energy drinks."

And reason:

" if he does not consume enough carbohydrates during a competition, Phelps could reach the stage when the body is out of carbohydrate fuel or muscle glycogen and it needs to begin to burn fat. It is more difficult for the body to burn fat than to use available carbohydrates, and if the body has to do this it puts more stress on the body than just using available carbohydrate energy."

source: How to Train Like an Olympic Swimmer: Tips to Master Swimming As an Olympic Level Athlete! - Bertapa

LIFTICVSMAXIMVS · February 11, 2013, 4:59pm

[quote]NikH wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
I would say burning glucose for energy in the human body is more like burning ethanol in a gasoline engine.

It can be done but it comes with all sorts of negative consequences to the machinery.
[/quote]

What the f***? This is so horribly wrong? Do you know that glucose is pretty much the only energy we use?

Fats and aminoacids are CONVERTED into glucose when you dont get enough from food, and converting is not optimal.

You should read glycolysis, krebs cycle in wikipedia.

// I didnt read the whole thread but I am just shocked of this post.[/quote]

How do you know converting nutrients is not optimal?

Our body converts everything we eat into something else. Nothing we eat is what is when it finally hits the blood stream - or when it is stored or utilized for metabolism.

Our bodies are chemical conversion engines and without that ability humans (in fact all of the animal kingdom) would never have gotten of the ground.

LIFTICVSMAXIMVS · February 11, 2013, 5:08pm