[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
I havent even brought this up yet, but when studied side by side, non-vaccinated populations have the same rate of occurrence of autism as do vaccinated populations.
Therefore, autism is uncorrelated with vaccination. This should be the final word. [/quote]
You would think that wouldn’t you?
Unfortunately the people the science based medicine community have as an “enemy” are moms and dads that have kids with autism. This makes dealing with the subject VERY tricky because you dont want to come off a the “cold hearted scientists”, and the public at large cares much more about the parents then they do about the science.
Couple that with the fact that they have coined terms like “Mother Warriors”, “Mommy Instinct”, “Too Much Too Soon”, “Green our Vaccines” and you can start to see why these ideas spread like wild fire… Who the hell could possibly argue against Mother Warriors, or making our Vaccines “Green” (whatever the hell that is)?
You can see how these memes just propagate through society and take hold much, much easier than “Actually there is much scientific evidence to suggest that there is no causal link between the current vaccine schedule and the supposed rise in autism, which may in fact be an artifact due to the increase in reporting and not a real rise in the occurrence of the disease itself.”
I’m not asserting that I have the answers here, but I think that those that blindly accept the line that they’re all desperately important because the CDC says so are just as foolish as those that refuse any vaccinations. There’s little critical thinking on either side.
Is chicken pox the only outliar, or are there others. Sure, it seems like a weird one to get because the risks are so low when you do get it (many parents even force their kids to hang out with infected kids to just get it over with)… But if the risk is just as low giving the vaccine, why not?
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No, I’d consider measels in the same department. Hell, look at the link you sent about the 11 kids in San Diego. So 11 kids get the measels. None die. It sounds like it isn’t any fun. Then again the screaming and fever doesn’t sound like fun either.
The odds of your kids getting f’ed up over a vaccine is slim…but so is the risk of getting serverely hurt after catching measels. It sounds like we’re fear-mongering people into taking vaccines which make companies rich.
Look at Rubella. If my daughter has rubella and becomes pregnant, there’s a high chance of her child having developmental issues. That sounds like a good reason for a vaccine.
What about Rotavirus? It’s diarrhia. You also develop increasing immunity each time you get it. Bad reason for vaccine.
Well they obviously haven’t been PROVEN safe and effective if the .gov has money set aside to pay for kids messed up from vaccines. Basically they’ve been proven to be safe MOST of the time.
I forget which vaccine it is and don’t want to re-research it, but there’s one that doesn’t even work during the first year (though you’re supposed to get it early) whereas the disease is most damaging if you get it before you’re 1 year old.
That doesn’t sound effective. Same goes for chicken pox. I’ve read that that vaccine isn’t terribly effective or it wears off in later years leaving you open for shingles.
So far as herd immunity goes, I have no business vaccinating my child before she is old enough to make a decision for herself in order to “protect the herd”. If you vaccinate your kid for a disease who cares if my kid has it, yours won’t.[quote]
My wife just went through a home birth this past month and the stuff that I have learned about hospital births has caused me to cause a very skeptical eye on trusting many in the industry.
mike
Care to elaborate on this? I currently work in a hospital (not in the Labor and Deliv section, but still…) and am just curious about the patients point of view on the matter, and may help me improve my practice in the Emergency setting.
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Yeah, I don’t want to hijack the thread, but consider the fact that the C-section rate in the U.S. is just over 30%. My wife’s midwife had a 6% rate. This is partially due to the fact that she isn’t doped up so she can’t feel.
It’s also due to the fact that she wasn’t put on her back which isn’t a good angle for baby blasting. She isn’t induced, nor is she manually having her water broken or put on a timeline. Doctors profit from performing C-sections. This is akin to having Phillip Morris run anti-smoking ads (which they do). They aren’t given incentive to not do a C-section.
Doctors won’t deliver breech babies vaginally. They also put in erithramiacin ointment in the baby’s eyes to prevent gonorrea transmission. This is not necessary, but all done, and charged to you for that matter in a hospital.
Most Americans submit to the authority readily wielded by a specialist without asking questions. It’s funny because if you go to the mechanic, you expect him to fuck you, yet we trust a doctor who is nothing more than a people mechanic.
That’s lovely that your wife’s home delivery went so well.
My son would have died. I also wasn’t “so doped up that I couldn’t feel”. I was attempting to give birth naturally sans drugs when his heart rate plummeted. They had to cut me open without anesthetic to save his life.
C-sections are not always necessary, but when they are and you’re at home, the result is sometimes a dead baby. It’s easy to call the system corrupt when you’ve never needed it.
[quote]MarvelGirl wrote:
That’s lovely that your wife’s home delivery went so well.
My son would have died. I also wasn’t “so doped up that I couldn’t feel”. I was attempting to give birth naturally sans drugs when his heart rate plummeted. They had to cut me open without anesthetic to save his life.
C-sections are not always necessary, but when they are and you’re at home, the result is sometimes a dead baby. It’s easy to call the system corrupt when you’ve never needed it.[/quote]
You misunderstand me. I didn’t say that there should never be C-sections. I’m also well-aware that women guard their birth experiences jealously and I’ve not passed judgment on your handling of yours. If what you said is right you’d have been part of our midwives 6%.
I just said that there’s something wrong when my wife’s midwife’s C-section rate (which is pretty normal for midwives) is less than 20% of the national average.
From what I’ve read (and I was initially anti-homebirth so I did a lot of research) many women have their docs tell them they need to speed things up so they induce. The petocin causes the heartrate to drop and the doc goes for the C-section when they’re the ones that caused the problems in the first place. The stories I’ve read that sound like this are a dime a dozen.
Again, coming from the standpoint of someone who 1)had everyone under the sun tell him he’s stupid for entertaining a homebirth and 2)was anti-homebirth until doing my own research and understand your thought process. I made sure our midwife was an EMT. She came with two other midwives for the whole process.
Our baby’s heartrate was monitored constantly throughout the birth. I had my truck loaded with carseat and was about 5 minutes from the hospital.
I stand by my statement that the system is corrupt. You haven’t attempted to refute that. I think most of any organization is corrupt. That doesn’t mean that all of the actors inside it are. Just as with cops and politicians, I trust most docs join up for the right reasons then become corrupted by the system.
Consider that both the AMA and the College of OB’s and Nurses are lobbying to outlaw homebirths. Do you really think that’s for a valid reason or perhaps because it cuts into their jobs?
[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
No, I’d consider measels in the same department. Hell, look at the link you sent about the 11 kids in San Diego. So 11 kids get the measels. None die. It sounds like it isn’t any fun. Then again the screaming and fever doesn’t sound like fun either.
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Your sample size there is n=11. If there was a 1 in 20 chance of dying from measles, then its entirely possible that that wouldnt have showed up in your little example. I dont know about you, but a .5% chance of my child dying from an entirely preventable disease, Im going to do what I can to prevent it.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
No, I’d consider measels in the same department. Hell, look at the link you sent about the 11 kids in San Diego. So 11 kids get the measels. None die. It sounds like it isn’t any fun. Then again the screaming and fever doesn’t sound like fun either.
Your sample size there is n=11. If there was a 1 in 20 chance of dying from measles, then its entirely possible that that wouldnt have showed up in your little example. I dont know about you, but a .5% chance of my child dying from an entirely preventable disease, Im going to do what I can to prevent it.[/quote]
I was speaking to a specific incident that was given. No, there is not a 1 in 20 chance of dying, there’s a 3 in 1000 chance of dying unless you live in the third world. Yes, I recognize there are other complications. So now, not only do you have to catch the disease, you then have to be really unlucky.
When you consider the large amount of people who can provide anecdotal evidence of the effects of a vaccine (even if it’s a maybe) yet I can’t point out a single person for whom measels has injured, I think I’ll roll the dice, or at least wait a few years past 18 months.
[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
[…] When you consider the large amount of people who can provide anecdotal evidence of the effects of a vaccine (even if it’s a maybe) yet I can’t point out a single person for whom measels has injured, I think I’ll roll the dice, or at least wait a few years past 18 months.
mike[/quote]
Anecdotal ‘evidence’ isn’t worth much.
But if you insist: a friend of mine lost hearing completely in one ear by contracting mumps as an adult. He was lucky, because it could have made him infertile.
And as for measles, the damage Andrew Wakefield did is very visible and present now in the UK: instead of reaching herd immunity, we have an explosion of cases - that means ill children and very ill adults.
Not getting your children immunised is rolling the dice with your childrens’ and other people’s future.
Since you seem to know a lot about this Lonnie can you answer my question? Why can’t they split up MMR vaccine?
I’m not Lonnie, but I do have personal experience with this. My older son, born about 6 weeks premature, was first vaccinated for MMR at 15 months of age. He had a severe reaction a few hours later - screaming, fever, convulsions, but fortunately no long term effect.
When it came time for the second MMR vaccination, about 6 months later, at our insistence the doctor arranged to give the component injections separately, spread over a couple of months. There was no unusual reaction to those.
In spite of a very frightening experience, we still felt that the vaccine’s benefits outweighed the risks.
John
Thats exactly what several parents reported here too. Child started Screaming, convulsions, fevers etc etc…All within hours of an injection. Some pulled through and some didn’t.
I see that as evidence of something being amiss. I don’t need an expert explaining to me that i’m not really seeing what i think i’m seeing. Because it’s happening right before our eyes.
But whatever, i digress. There is no evidence.
On the flip side, the benefit of vaccinating the masses far far outweigh worrying about a .001% of the population who will react adversely. Unless ofcourse you’re a parent of the child with the adverse reaction.
Since you seem to know a lot about this Lonnie can you answer my question? Why can’t they split up MMR vaccine?
I’m not Lonnie, but I do have personal experience with this. My older son, born about 6 weeks premature, was first vaccinated for MMR at 15 months of age. He had a severe reaction a few hours later - screaming, fever, convulsions, but fortunately no long term effect.
When it came time for the second MMR vaccination, about 6 months later, at our insistence the doctor arranged to give the component injections separately, spread over a couple of months. There was no unusual reaction to those.
In spite of a very frightening experience, we still felt that the vaccine’s benefits outweighed the risks.
John
Thats exactly what several parents reported here too. Child started Screaming, convulsions, fevers etc etc…All within hours of an injection. Some pulled through and some didn’t.
I see that as evidence of something being amiss. I don’t need an expert explaining to me that i’m not really seeing what i think i’m seeing. Because it’s happening right before our eyes.
But whatever, i digress. There is no evidence.
On the flip side, the benefit of vaccinating the masses far far outweigh worrying about a .001% of the population who will react adversely. Unless ofcourse you’re a parent of the child with the adverse reaction.
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Reaction implies that the vaccine CAUSED the autism.
Where is the research? “This guy my coworker’s brother knows” now holds more scientific validation than science itself! No wonder steroids are illegal. Idiots listening to idiots who know idiots. Great.
Explain this to me though, how is a single dose of a medication going to suddenly bring on (within a day or two) a condition such as autism in an otherwise healthy child? If there was an “autism” switch that could be flipped on by a single dose of vaccine, then we would know about it by now.
Most developmental problems related to exposure to various chemicals and toxic substances come from long term exposure, not from singular events.
Reaction implies that the vaccine CAUSED the autism.
Where is the research? “This guy my coworker’s brother knows” now holds more scientific validation than science itself! No wonder steroids are illegal. Idiots listening to idiots who know idiots. Great.
Explain this to me though, how is a single dose of a medication going to suddenly bring on (within a day or two) a condition such as autism in an otherwise healthy child? If there was an “autism” switch that could be flipped on by a single dose of vaccine, then we would know about it by now.
Most developmental problems related to exposure to various chemicals and toxic substances come from long term exposure, not from singular events.[/quote]
I think we have reached the same conclusion (vaccines do not cause autism) but I have to disagree with you method of questioning…
You seem to be suggestion that its not even possible a one time dose of a medication could cause the disease process, and while I agree its highly unlikely, it definitely could be the case. The Mercury Militia people will also point out the “high level of toxins” in the vaccines as the culprit, which act as the trigger to switch on the disease. And to be sure, there are a small number of children who do suffer some kind of reaction to the vaccine, although they are in the vast minority.
In any event, and as most things tend to go, its definitely a complicated issue which is why its taken so long for the data to be conclusive and you cant just easily brush off one hypothesis in favor of the other at first glace. Luckily we have the best and brightest in the world working on the issue.