[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
The diseases are only rare because of the damn vaccines. [/quote]
I was wondering if someone was going to point that out. Vaccines save lives. Autism is terrible but my question is where are all of the autistic people from my generation? Simply misdiagnosed?
IMO - which means nothing of course - the sanitizing of children’s environments does traumatic harm in the long run.
[quote]on edge wrote:
rare disease or some disease that isn’t all that bad anyway. [/quote]
[quote]
Known complications of mumps include:
* Infection of other organ systems
* Sterility in men (this is quite rare, and mostly occurs in older men)
* Mild forms of meningitis (rare, 40% of cases occur without parotid swelling)
* Encephalitis (very rare, rarely fatal)
* Profound (91 dB or more) but rare sensorineural hearing loss, uni- or bilateral
* Pancreatitis manifesting as abdominal pain and vomiting
* Oophoritis (inflammation of ovaries) but fertility is rarely affected.
List of modern (since 2000) Mumps outbreaks
Measels:
Complications with measles are relatively common, ranging from relatively mild and less serious diarrhea, to pneumonia and encephalitis (subacute sclerosing panencephalitis), corneal ulceration leading to corneal scarring[3] Complications are usually more severe amongst adults who catch the virus.
Outbreaks since 2000:
Rubella:
In the years 1964-65, the United States had an estimated 12.5 million rubella cases. This led to 11,000 miscarriages or therapeutic abortions and 20,000 cases of congenital rubella syndrome. Of these, 2,100 died as neonates, 12,000 were deaf, 3,580 were blind and 1,800 were mentally retarded. In New York alone, CRS affected 1% of all births. [/quote]
Yes yes, very rare diseases that arent all that bad. Your children should be taken from you.
[quote]Gregus wrote:
Legally, the problem may not be with the vaccine though. The problem could be with thimerosal, the preservative which is about 50% mercury. Very toxic and poisonous to a fragile system. So the vaccine may be OK but it’s just semantics. [/quote]
There is no longer, nor has there been since 2001, any Thimerosal in the vaccines that we regularly give to children on the vaccine schedule. This was the first line of thinking from the Anti-vaccine crowd (originally called the Mercury Militia) and after it was thoroughly shown to be without evidence, they moved on to other stuff.
[quote]RWElder0 wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
The diseases are only rare because of the damn vaccines.
I was wondering if someone was going to point that out. Vaccines save lives. Autism is terrible but my question is where are all of the autistic people from my generation? Simply misdiagnosed?
IMO - which means nothing of course - the sanitizing of children’s environments does traumatic harm in the long run.[/quote]
There are actually scientists working on this hypothesis right now. Having different animals live in different levels of “filth” and seeing the resulting devlopments. Results pending.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
RWElder0 wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
The diseases are only rare because of the damn vaccines.
I was wondering if someone was going to point that out. Vaccines save lives. Autism is terrible but my question is where are all of the autistic people from my generation? Simply misdiagnosed?
IMO - which means nothing of course - the sanitizing of children’s environments does traumatic harm in the long run.
There are actually scientists working on this hypothesis right now. Having different animals live in different levels of “filth” and seeing the resulting devlopments. Results pending.[/quote]
Since you seem to know a lot about this Lonnie can you answer my question? Why can’t they split up MMR vaccine?
[quote]on edge wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
Interesting. Now I’m even more confused as to whether I’m vaccinating my daughter or not.
mike
I hope you don’t. I don’t see the logic of injecting something that may be harmful into a perfectly healthy body for the purpose of warding off some rare disease or some disease that isn’t all that bad anyway. Neither of my children have ever had a shot.[/quote]
This is the most faulty logic I have ever read… The exact same thing could be said in favor of the vaccines:
I dont see the logic in not injecting something that could potentially save the kids life or health down the road, with minor and rare side effects. I know many kids who did not get vaccinated and it turned out very poorly for them, many of them ended up dying.
Its as simple as this:
1 - Vaccines are safe, damn near the safest drugs on the market.
2 - The doses used in children are safe
3 - The diseases they prevent are very harmful in many instances and can be deadly (look at the stats above)
4 - The concerns about Autism are UNFOUNDED. There is no link. Period. www.sciencebasedmedicine.com if you still have doubts about this.
Now, having said that, I will also say the following:
There is a small minority of children that have a predisposition to experience harmful side effects with the vaccine. This is very, very unfortunate and I wont even pretend to know what this feels like should it happen to someone. However, given that NO drug is without side effcts and the occurrence of side effects are so low in vaccines, the benefits outweigh the risks in my opinion.
Also, the government and the FDA recognize this fact and have funds set aside to help those families whose children are proven to be affected by the vaccine. They are not trying to hide behind anything.
11 kids is San Diego, all non-vaccinated, just got the measles: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/18/earlyshow/health/main3842334.shtml
The diseases are only rare because of the vaccines and because of the herd immunity established once the vaccinated percentage hits over 90% of so, once it dips below this significantly the diseases are easily able to catch hold and spread.
Might you change your mind about vaccines had your child been one of the 11 affected?? Just be lucky you didnt live in the area where it was spreading.
[quote]dre wrote:
Lonnie123 wrote:
RWElder0 wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
The diseases are only rare because of the damn vaccines.
I was wondering if someone was going to point that out. Vaccines save lives. Autism is terrible but my question is where are all of the autistic people from my generation? Simply misdiagnosed?
IMO - which means nothing of course - the sanitizing of children’s environments does traumatic harm in the long run.
There are actually scientists working on this hypothesis right now. Having different animals live in different levels of “filth” and seeing the resulting devlopments. Results pending.
Since you seem to know a lot about this Lonnie can you answer my question? Why can’t they split up MMR vaccine?[/quote]
I suppose if the evidence supported them being split up, they would be. As it is right now there is a vaccine schedule… What that means is that currently we do not give every vaccine a person should get all at once. They already are getting split up. We just happen to give this one as a combination shot.
To answer specifically about the MMR, I guess there is no reason they couldnt split them up(there are ways to do it, outlined below), there is just no evidence suggesting a need to do so. Based on my readings there are ways to acquire the 3 shots individually, although it is usually not as easy as telling your Dr thats what you want and having it happen instantly like that.
If you feel this is necessary (and really, if it means the difference between vaccinating and not vaccinating then go for it) it appears as though the best ways are:
1 - At a large university/teaching hospital where supplies are typically in large quantity. Small town doctor offices typically do not have the individual shots due to the way the single shots have to be ordered.
2 - Getting individual prescriptions from your Dr, filling them, then going back to the office to get them administered. There are also ways to have the script filled out online and having them shipped to your Doctor I think.
The scientific study which sparked all this was pretty invalid anyways - the sample size was ridiculously small to draw such a large conclusion and there have been no further studies duplicating the results. Even if it were legitimate it still would not come close to convincing anyone in the scientific community.
Of course, the invalidation of the study will probably change no one’s mind anyways who believes it, since they clearly put little stock in any sort of credible science in the first place.
Pretty much everybody gets vaccinations, it’s not as if the doctors administering them would not report it if there incidents or problems after giving the kids the injections. Sorry, just don’t buy it, for something that is so widespread there is very little evidence of any problem. If you want to buy into there being some sort of mass conspiracy by all doctors, the FDA and big pharm, go right ahead but I don’t see it.
[quote]on edge wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
Interesting. Now I’m even more confused as to whether I’m vaccinating my daughter or not.
mike
I hope you don’t. I don’t see the logic of injecting something that may be harmful into a perfectly healthy body for the purpose of warding off some rare disease or some disease that isn’t all that bad anyway. Neither of my children have ever had a shot.[/quote]
Wow, talk about missing the point. The reason that your kids are at a low risk of these diseases is that lots of other parents have taken the responsible step of immunising their kids. People like you are the reason that we are starting to see outbreaks of diseases that had been pretty much irradicated. Well done!
I was also surprised to find that the study only contained 12 children, and it looks like some of them dont even “count” for a number of reasons. Really, an n=12 proves basically nothing when trying to draw conclusions out to whole populations. I’m really surprised it caught on like it did.
Alright… Time to go train.
[quote]dre wrote:
Since you seem to know a lot about this Lonnie can you answer my question? Why can’t they split up MMR vaccine?[/quote]
I’m not Lonnie, but I do have personal experience with this. My older son, born about 6 weeks premature, was first vaccinated for MMR at 15 months of age. He had a severe reaction a few hours later - screaming, fever, convulsions, but fortunately no long term effect.
When it came time for the second MMR vaccination, about 6 months later, at our insistence the doctor arranged to give the component injections separately, spread over a couple of months. There was no unusual reaction to those.
In spite of a very frightening experience, we still felt that the vaccine’s benefits outweighed the risks.
John
My son is autistic. It wasn’t diagnosed until he was 8 years old. In fact, it wasn’t obvious that he wasn’t normal until he was 8 years old.
It’s not like you pop out a baby and the doctor looks it up and down and says,
“Yep, he’s autistic.”
The symptoms have to pop up at some point, I think mothers who blame them on the vaccinations are just desperately trying to label something as the cause when we really have no idea what causes it.
Looking back on my son’s life I can see little signs and incidents that I didn’t think much of at the time, but now I realize, “Oh, that’s why he did that.”
I don’t believe for a second that all of these kids were absolutely 100% normal and then became severely autistic overnight. WTF is normal with a toddler anyways?
[quote]cakewalk wrote:
dre wrote:
Since you seem to know a lot about this Lonnie can you answer my question? Why can’t they split up MMR vaccine?
I’m not Lonnie, but I do have personal experience with this. My older son, born about 6 weeks premature, was first vaccinated for MMR at 15 months of age. He had a severe reaction a few hours later - screaming, fever, convulsions, but fortunately no long term effect.
When it came time for the second MMR vaccination, about 6 months later, at our insistence the doctor arranged to give the component injections separately, spread over a couple of months. There was no unusual reaction to those.
In spite of a very frightening experience, we still felt that the vaccine’s benefits outweighed the risks.
John
[/quote]
I completely agree, I think vaccinations are absolutely necessary. I guess I’m just trying to figure out the best way possible to do them.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
dre wrote:
Lonnie123 wrote:
RWElder0 wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
The diseases are only rare because of the damn vaccines.
I was wondering if someone was going to point that out. Vaccines save lives. Autism is terrible but my question is where are all of the autistic people from my generation? Simply misdiagnosed?
IMO - which means nothing of course - the sanitizing of children’s environments does traumatic harm in the long run.
There are actually scientists working on this hypothesis right now. Having different animals live in different levels of “filth” and seeing the resulting devlopments. Results pending.
Since you seem to know a lot about this Lonnie can you answer my question? Why can’t they split up MMR vaccine?
I suppose if the evidence supported them being split up, they would be. As it is right now there is a vaccine schedule… What that means is that currently we do not give every vaccine a person should get all at once. They already are getting split up. We just happen to give this one as a combination shot.
To answer specifically about the MMR, I guess there is no reason they couldnt split them up(there are ways to do it, outlined below), there is just no evidence suggesting a need to do so. Based on my readings there are ways to acquire the 3 shots individually, although it is usually not as easy as telling your Dr thats what you want and having it happen instantly like that.
If you feel this is necessary (and really, if it means the difference between vaccinating and not vaccinating then go for it) it appears as though the best ways are:
1 - At a large university/teaching hospital where supplies are typically in large quantity. Small town doctor offices typically do not have the individual shots due to the way the single shots have to be ordered.
2 - Getting individual prescriptions from your Dr, filling them, then going back to the office to get them administered. There are also ways to have the script filled out online and having them shipped to your Doctor I think. [/quote]
Thanks for the info Lonnie.
Yeah, thanks Lonnie123, very well argued. Good to see a voice of rationality and reason here every once in a while.
Makkun
[quote]makkun wrote:
Yeah, thanks Lonnie123, very well argued. Good to see a voice of rationality and reason here every once in a while.
Makkun[/quote]
Thanks guys, I dont mind spending the time helping you guys out at all. There is so much misinformation out there that its very difficult to get through at times. On issues like this its more difficult to “just google it” because there is so much conflicting info out there that you may end up on a place that peddles nonsense and looks really good. Not to mention the good information (science based) is very tough to get through unless you have an interest in it.
The science is very hard to nail down. I’ve been following it for probably 2 years now and trying to stay up to date on it, so hopefully you guys can benefit from the time I’ve invested.
[quote]MarvelGirl wrote:
My son is autistic. It wasn’t diagnosed until he was 8 years old. In fact, it wasn’t obvious that he wasn’t normal until he was 8 years old.
It’s not like you pop out a baby and the doctor looks it up and down and says,
“Yep, he’s autistic.”
The symptoms have to pop up at some point, I think mothers who blame them on the vaccinations are just desperately trying to label something as the cause when we really have no idea what causes it.
Looking back on my son’s life I can see little signs and incidents that I didn’t think much of at the time, but now I realize, “Oh, that’s why he did that.”
I don’t believe for a second that all of these kids were absolutely 100% normal and then became severely autistic overnight. WTF is normal with a toddler anyways?[/quote]
Youve hit upon something very important here Marvel, and that is this:
1 - This “disease” is really just now coming to the forefront of the media and the medical community.
2 - The sharp rise in “occurrence” is likely attributed to the new “spectrum” style diagnosis and increased awareness and reporting, which is to say that there are varying degrees of involvement in different kids, more of which are being reported now.
3 - The kinds of things that autism affects (communication, interaction, eye contact) dont really start to take off developmentally until right around the age of vaccine administration. This is the root of the claim.
I havent even brought this up yet, but when studied side by side, non-vaccinated populations have the same rate of occurrence of autism as do vaccinated populations.
Not to mention the main culprit thought to cause the disease in the vaccine (Thimerosal) was taken out in 2001, and in 2008 the studies came in showing the exact same amount of rise in autism that had been happening in the years prior to taking it out.
These two pieces of evidence alone should at least give someone who is thinking about not vaccinating their kid a little sigh of relief.
[quote]I havent even brought this up yet, but when studied side by side, non-vaccinated populations have the same rate of occurrence of autism as do vaccinated populations.
[/quote]
Therefore, autism is uncorrelated with vaccination. This should be the final word.
See, I intend to vaccinate her for tetanus and rubella for sure. I’m still on the fence about many others.
Is it really necessary to vaccinate for chicken pox? That’s just not a serious disease. Besides the fact, from a lot of the reading I’ve done, lots of these vaccines either wear off (leaving your child vulnerable to it when she’s an adult and it’s shingles) and it seems that many of them don’t even work in the first year when the kid is the most likely to be seriously hurt by the disease. The cost benefit doesn’t seem to line up.
I’m pro-democracy and pro-western medicine, but you can’t tell me that we’re told that many of these vaccines are important on their own merits instead of because some pharmaceutical company is lobbying the right people in the FDA or the CDC.
I’m not asserting that I have the answers here, but I think that those that blindly accept the line that they’re all desperately important because the CDC says so are just as foolish as those that refuse any vaccinations. There’s little critical thinking on either side.
My wife just went through a home birth this past month and the stuff that I have learned about hospital births has caused me to cause a very skeptical eye on trusting many in the industry.
mike
[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
See, I intend to vaccinate her for tetanus and rubella for sure. I’m still on the fence about many others.
Is it really necessary to vaccinate for chicken pox? That’s just not a serious disease. Besides the fact, from a lot of the reading I’ve done, lots of these vaccines either wear off (leaving your child vulnerable to it when she’s an adult and it’s shingles) and it seems that many of them don’t even work in the first year when the kid is the most likely to be seriously hurt by the disease. The cost benefit doesn’t seem to line up.
I’m pro-democracy and pro-western medicine, but you can’t tell me that we’re told that many of these vaccines are important on their own merits instead of because some pharmaceutical company is lobbying the right people in the FDA or the CDC.
I’m not asserting that I have the answers here, but I think that those that blindly accept the line that they’re all desperately important because the CDC says so are just as foolish as those that refuse any vaccinations. There’s little critical thinking on either side.
[/quote]Is chicken pox the only outliar, or are there others. Sure, it seems like a weird one to get because the risks are so low when you do get it (many parents even force their kids to hang out with infected kids to just get it over with)… But if the risk is just as low giving the vaccine, why not?
I dont think anyone in this thread is saying EVERY vaccine is desperately important, but there are certainly vaccines which protect against very harmful diseases, and given that they are proven safe and effective there is little reason not to get these things. Especially in light of the fact that increasing herd immunity decreases the chance of the virus spreading in the population at large.[/quote]
[quote]My wife just went through a home birth this past month and the stuff that I have learned about hospital births has caused me to cause a very skeptical eye on trusting many in the industry.
mike[/quote]
Care to elaborate on this? I currently work in a hospital (not in the Labor and Deliv section, but still…) and am just curious about the patients point of view on the matter, and may help me improve my practice in the Emergency setting.