[quote]Professor X wrote:
I feel the exact same way. However, you need to add “Brownie” to that list of clusterfuckers.[/quote]
Yeah you right! There are quite a few others that I saw first hand who were cowards and causing more problems by the way they were acting.
One person who people forget as being someone who actually did something right was General Honere.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
rainjack wrote:
What in the fuck are you even saying? You asked a question. I answered it. I thank my lawyer as well - and at $300/hour I even buy his lunch.
I meant exactly what I fucking wrote. It doesn’t matter if you personally thank someone who treated you, that is nothing like the MASSIVE PUBLIC REAMING the individual would get if they fucked up. Are you able to comprehend this at all or are you just typing to see how many profanities you can link together?[/quote]
There was only one “fuck” and one “fucking” in the entirety of my last post. You tied me in one paragraph. If I wanted to see how many profanities I could link together, do you honestly think I couldn’t get more than two with my first sentence, much less an entire post? Please.
[quote]Wow. Someone has to explain to you that the damage done by the fucking hurricane is the primary reason why there was such a large disaster for Katrina and not just the evacuation process?
[/quote]
Does someone have to explain to you that the lack of an evacuation process was the main reason people were raising hell over Katrina?
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Does someone have to explain to you that the lack of an evacuation process was the main reason people were raising hell over Katrina?
[/quote]
No, that was the primary issue that many conservatives focused on so they could take all blame away from Bush and his near 3 day lull in response (a simple tv address on the issue showing any amount of concern during the first day that hell was breaking loose would have eliminated much of the heat he drew on this). Instead the administration acted as if they were in the dark about how bad it was down there for days.
Everyone else acknowledges that the fuck ups go all of the way up the food chain from the mayor to the president and his poor choice for FEMA director (you know how best buds are sometimes).
[quote]Professor X wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Does someone have to explain to you that the lack of an evacuation process was the main reason people were raising hell over Katrina?
No, that was the primary issue that many conservatives focused on so they could take all blame away from Bush and his near 3 day lull in response (a simple tv address on the issue showing any amount of concern during the first day that hell was breaking loose would have eliminated much of the heat he drew on this). Instead the administration acted as if they were in the dark about how bad it was down there for days.
Everyone else acknowledges that the fuck ups go all of the way up the food chain from the mayor to the president and his poor choice for FEMA director (you know how best buds are sometimes).[/quote]
SO saying thank you when things go right is stupid, but getting on TV and showing concern is okay after the cows are already out of the barn? How does that work?
His supposed 3 day non-response happened - get this - AFTER Katrina hit. Which is the exact same time frame you say doesn’t matter with Gustav. How many fucking people would a Bush TV address have saved? None.
It’s not Bush’s fault that Nagin let the buses sit in the bus yard while people were trying to get out of town. The evacuation failure was totally Nagin’s goat screw, and all I saw him do on TV was blame Bush.
But - both of them deserve credit for fixing their respective breakdowns from Katrina. Nagin got NOLA evacuated, and FEMA was fully prepared and ready to respond. Whether that is just their job or not should not factor in. The both of them, as well as the new governor deserve a big thank you from the people of La. at the very least.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
SO saying thank you when things go right is stupid, but getting on TV and showing concern is okay after the cows are already out of the barn? How does that work? [/quote]
Are you saying you don’t understand why showing at least SOME level of concern during Katrina considering the ineptness of the response would prevent many of the feelings that Bush simply didn’t care?
Really?
You are more concerned about people saying, “thank you” when nothing really bad happened this time than about the many people who had their lives fucked up that last time?
How about this, people would be more likely to say, thank you if they didn’t feel abandoned the first time around.
[quote]
His supposed 3 day non-response happened - get this - AFTER Katrina hit. Which is the exact same time frame you say doesn’t matter with Gustav. How many fucking people would a Bush TV address have saved? None. [/quote]
I’m sorry, but how many people are stranded on top of houses or in their attics right now without food and water?
Once again, many conservatives LOVE to avoid placing any blame at Bush’s feet. It comes across as insincere when the same think we should be throwing praise at him when the storm was nowhere near as big this time and much of the response of evacuation was because the entire south is gun shy as a result of Katrina.
Most of Houston evacuated during the last hurricane (Rita) that came this way because of Katrina. They acted like that…BECAUSE OF KATRINA AND NOT BECAUSE OF HOW GREAT THE HOUSTON MAYOR IS OR HOW GREAT BUSH IS.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
rainjack wrote:
SO saying thank you when things go right is stupid, but getting on TV and showing concern is okay after the cows are already out of the barn? How does that work?
Are you saying you don’t understand why showing at least SOME level of concern during Katrina considering the ineptness of the response would prevent many of the feelings that Bush simply didn’t care?
Really?[/quote]
Really.
[quote]You are more concerned about people saying, “thank you” when nothing really bad happened this time than about the many people who had their lives fucked up that last time?
How about this, people would be more likely to say, thank you if they didn’t feel abandoned the first time around.[/quote]
I’m not concerned in the least. I know what I would do in that situation. Nagin was the one who abandoned them. Are you demanding the same from him as you are Bush?
[quote]His supposed 3 day non-response happened - get this - AFTER Katrina hit. Which is the exact same time frame you say doesn’t matter with Gustav. How many fucking people would a Bush TV address have saved? None.
I’m sorry, but how many people are stranded on top of houses or in their attics right now without food and water?[/quote]
What in the hell does that have to do with Bush giving a speech? Seriously, dude, focus. You think Bush giving a speech was going to get people off their roofs, recede the flood levels and send manna from heaven? Bush is good, but he’s no Obama.
[quote]Once again, many conservatives LOVE to avoid placing any blame at Bush’s feet. It comes across as insincere when the same think we should be throwing praise at him when the storm was nowhere near as big this time and much of the response of evacuation was because the entire south is gun shy as a result of Katrina.
Most of Houston evacuated during the last hurricane (Rita) that came this way because of Katrina. They acted like that…BECAUSE OF KATRINA AND NOT BECAUSE OF HOW GREAT THE HOUSTON MAYOR IS OR HOW GREAT BUSH IS.
[/quote]
Everyone involved deserves a thank you. Can you not read what I wrote? Evidently that would have been too difficult.
But all the same, you got it wrong. Many liberals LOVE to place ALL of the blame at Bush’s feet, and place NONE of it on Nagin or Landreaux. I’m big enough to admit that Bush’s FEMA was a total goatscrew. I think I have done that several times back in the aftermath of Katrina. Have you once blamed anyone but Bush?
Houston is not NOLA. There are a lot og people there who can actually take a shit without screaming for someone to wipe their ass for them.
I still say you two should hug.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
First of all, we haven’t won yet. The country is apparently like night and day compared to two years ago, but that is mostly due to the Anbar Awakening, not the “surge.” 30,000 extra troops were not and could not be decisive in a war like that. I’m sure it helped, especially in Baghdad, but it was not what turned it around.
Things still very much have the potential to go south. No one has been following the news about the SOI, especially in Diyala?
And all that aside, international reputation aside, four thousand dead Americans aside, tens of thousands of dead Iraqis aside - the war cost $3 TRILLION. And that’s the conservative estimate.
The awakening would not have happened had there been no surge. [/quote]
The Awakening predated the surge by six months. That should be common knowledge to anyone who really follows the war.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
First of all, we haven’t won yet. The country is apparently like night and day compared to two years ago, but that is mostly due to the Anbar Awakening, not the “surge.” 30,000 extra troops were not and could not be decisive in a war like that. I’m sure it helped, especially in Baghdad, but it was not what turned it around.
Things still very much have the potential to go south. No one has been following the news about the SOI, especially in Diyala?
And all that aside, international reputation aside, four thousand dead Americans aside, tens of thousands of dead Iraqis aside - the war cost $3 TRILLION. And that’s the conservative estimate.
The awakening would not have happened had there been no surge.
The Awakening predated the surge by six months. That should be common knowledge to anyone who really follows the war.[/quote]
Sorry, but without the surge, the awakening would have just been a trip to the bathroom in the middle of the night.
I know you hate the war, and look for every possible opportunity to voice your hatred, but things are looking up - and except for some perfunctory house cleaning in the south, we should have it all sewed up, and start bringing soldiers home next year.
Then maybe we can start taking some of that oil we went over there for in the first place.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Many liberals LOVE to place ALL of the blame at Bush’s feet, and place NONE of it on Nagin or Landreaux.
Don’t understand why you would want to blame the Landrieus and which one Mitch or Mary? And I agree how alot of people lay all of the blame on Bush. I am no fan of his especially after Katrina, but it was not ALL his fault for lack of response. I got into a huge argument with a very left leaning woman who really let me have it for not blameing Bush as the ONLY one who messed up. To top it off she wasn’t even an evacuee/refugee/survivor/Katrican or whatever we’re called now. She was just someone who had watched what went down on TV and believed everything that was “spoon fed” to her by the media.
Sorry about the above being in all “quotes”. I’m new to T-Nation.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
I’m not concerned in the least. I know what I would do in that situation. Nagin was the one who abandoned them. Are you demanding the same from him as you are Bush? [/quote]
NO. Bush is the leader of this entire “free” country and he appointed the former FEMA fuckup who was in large part a reason why there was so much chaos. I put Bush and “Brownie” over anyone else who is to blame. That doesn’t mean I ignore the faults of the others involved either.
[quote]
professor x wrote:
I’m sorry, but how many people are stranded on top of houses or in their attics right now without food and water?
What in the hell does that have to do with Bush giving a speech? Seriously, dude, focus. You think Bush giving a speech was going to get people off their roofs, recede the flood levels and send manna from heaven? Bush is good, but he’s no Obama. [/quote]
I think Bush giving a speech would go pretty fucking far to reassure the entire country that his vacation wasn’t more important than people dying.
[quote]
Everyone involved deserves a thank you. Can you not read what I wrote? Evidently that would have been too difficult.
But all the same, you got it wrong. Many liberals LOVE to place ALL of the blame at Bush’s feet, and place NONE of it on Nagin or Landreaux. I’m big enough to admit that Bush’s FEMA was a total goatscrew. I think I have done that several times back in the aftermath of Katrina. Have you once blamed anyone but Bush?
Houston is not NOLA. There are a lot og people there who can actually take a shit without screaming for someone to wipe their ass for them. [/quote]
Houston is a completely different world from NO, but that doesn’t change the fact that they are a prime example of the fact that people evacuating lately has jack shit to do with the good work of the President or the Mayor and everything to do with people being scared shitless because they don’t want another Katrina.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
the fact that people evacuating lately has jack shit to do with the good work of the President or the Mayor and everything to do with people being scared shitless because they don’t want another Katrina.[/quote]
So then with this logic, the Katrina mess was the fault of the people not being scared of a fucking Cat 4-5 hurricane bearing down on a city built under sea level? I agree.
[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Professor X wrote:
the fact that people evacuating lately has jack shit to do with the good work of the President or the Mayor and everything to do with people being scared shitless because they don’t want another Katrina.
So then with this logic, the Katrina mess was the fault of the people not being scared of a fucking Cat 4-5 hurricane bearing down on a city built under sea level? I agree.
[/quote]
Exactly…
[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Professor X wrote:
the fact that people evacuating lately has jack shit to do with the good work of the President or the Mayor and everything to do with people being scared shitless because they don’t want another Katrina.
So then with this logic, the Katrina mess was the fault of the people not being scared of a fucking Cat 4-5 hurricane bearing down on a city built under sea level? I agree.
[/quote]
That was damn sure a part of it, just like those people who live in trailer parks who, despite the massive twister headed their way, claim, “I ain’t leavin’ the house I dun’ growed up in”.
The difference is, national disasters are not acted on based on how swiftly people moved out of the way.
Of course, I have to be fair as well and acknowledge the massive numbers of poverty level people and elderly who had a real problem getting out of the way of that hurricane.
I can also understand those afraid to lose everything to looters if they actually left AND the fact that it has been something like 100 years since a hurricane that large made it to that area.
People were overly confident that it wouldn’t be quite that bad…until it was. At that point, you stop blaming the people and focus on saving lives. Unfortunately, that is where the fuckups hit the next level.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
People were overly confident that it wouldn’t be quite that bad…until it was. At that point, you stop blaming the people and focus on saving lives. Unfortunately, that is where the fuckups hit the next level.[/quote]
Until it was…was too late…OH SHIT. However, stupidity does not constitiute unfair accusations of failure of a big plan. Everyone was stupid in this one, and once again, people are looking to their government to save them.
Save yourself. A fucking hurricane is coming. There was plenty of news, and data…Get…Out!
[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Professor X wrote:
People were overly confident that it wouldn’t be quite that bad…until it was. At that point, you stop blaming the people and focus on saving lives. Unfortunately, that is where the fuckups hit the next level.
Until it was…was too late…OH SHIT. However, stupidity does not constitiute unfair accusations of failure of a big plan. Everyone was stupid in this one, and once again, people are looking to their government to save them.
Save yourself. A fucking hurricane is coming. There was plenty of news, and data…Get…Out!
[/quote]
The bad thing is that now with Gustav not being as bad, people are going to be more complacent and not be worried. Katrina was bad but the way people acted after Katrina was worse! That is where all the major fuck ups started happening.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
First of all, we haven’t won yet. The country is apparently like night and day compared to two years ago, but that is mostly due to the Anbar Awakening, not the “surge.” 30,000 extra troops were not and could not be decisive in a war like that. I’m sure it helped, especially in Baghdad, but it was not what turned it around.
Things still very much have the potential to go south. No one has been following the news about the SOI, especially in Diyala?
And all that aside, international reputation aside, four thousand dead Americans aside, tens of thousands of dead Iraqis aside - the war cost $3 TRILLION. And that’s the conservative estimate.
The awakening would not have happened had there been no surge.
The Awakening predated the surge by six months. That should be common knowledge to anyone who really follows the war.
Sorry, but without the surge, the awakening would have just been a trip to the bathroom in the middle of the night.
I know you hate the war, and look for every possible opportunity to voice your hatred, but things are looking up - and except for some perfunctory house cleaning in the south, we should have it all sewed up, and start bringing soldiers home next year.
Then maybe we can start taking some of that oil we went over there for in the first place.
[/quote]
The Awakening (and to a lesser extent the fact that Sadr called a ceasefire because he was losing control of his organization) are what dropped the violence in Iraq so dramatically, along with Petraeus’ decision to have troops live among the Iraqis and provide population security.
The extra 30,000 troops helped, especially in Baghdad, but they did not magically “win the war.” They were probably the least important factor. 30,000 soldiers, of whom a minority are infantry, are not going to turn the tide in a counterinsurgency in a country of 25 million.
Yes, I think the war was, as one of General Petraeus’ closest advisors, David Kilcullen, admitted in an unguarded moment, “fucking stupid.” I think most rational people feel that way. Do you “love” the war?
And again, violence has dropped through the floor, no question. But if Maliki screws over the SOIs they could start up the insurgency again, which they are threatening to do already. We’re not out of the woods yet, whatever Joe Lieberman may tell you.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
That was damn sure a part of it, just like those people who live in trailer parks who, despite the massive twister headed their way, claim, “I ain’t leavin’ the house I dun’ growed up in”.
[/quote]
True. Between them and the urban poor, “Shiiiiiit, my 'hood was were I was born, yo” types, there’s just going to be people who won’t evacuate.
All levels of gov’t were to blame last time along with the stupidity of many people.
Comparing Gustav to Katrina in terms of damage is stupid.