Excessive or Well Deserved?

Off Topic
348

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
But was a skull fracture justice for her attempted or connected slap? Hardly.

[/quote]

You mention this part quite a bit and if that was the only thing then I am inclined to agree with you. Had we seen him get slapped, go to the back to retrieve a pipe and then proceed to beat the living daylights out of these women then of course it was overkill.

But doesn’t the fact that he actually retreated from the situation and then found that these women were CHASING him, yelling and obviously wanting to continue with violence, change things. To me it does.

Why in God’s name would two women follow you, a man, if not to cause grave damage to you?

You have seen women fight, right? There is no stopping them. Plenty of memories from high school/college/bar fights where when women fight it is WW III. Plenty of videos on the interwebz as well. Seen the one where the two women beat up the transgender guy? They continued till that person experienced seizures and the interference of a nice old lady did nothing to deter them. And they kept coming back and back and back.

When you get slapped and a slap back does not resolve the situation, in my experience a women is then out for blood and she will not stop till you are in a world of hurt. And two women? Quite frankly, I would fear for my safety in a big way.

Edit: well shit, you answered some of this in the posts following :slight_smile:
And you are right, the first time i watched the video i did not realize that much time had elapsed between hits. But, for devil’s advocacy sake, does that not mean they were trying to get up (even though that might be normal given the circumstances)?[/quote]

Trying to get up? To fight back??? lol

Come on. IF they were trying to get up it is almost certain that they would do so to escape their pending death.

Unless there is evidence that the women were on PCP, I think it’s more than safe to say that the guy could have stopped hitting them and left the premises as soon as they fell to the floor. [/quote]

It is not that I do not understand what you are saying and he could have done a lot of things in hindsight. BUT, what about in the heat of the moment? The odd thing is that many seem to think that he was trying to kill them but the women were NOT trying to kill him.

What made you think that these women had perhaps only another slap in mind? And what makes you think that an untrained person can just switch it off after feeling threatened this way. He retreated and he was followed. Perhaps I am missing something, perhaps he had a back door he could run to and get away. We do not know. I have been around women like this and these are not the dainty gals you perhaps grew up with. These are 200lb heifers who can fight and have no issue with getting you down and dancing on your head. These are the kind of women that will leave you in a bloody pulp, needing diapers for the rest of your life. It would give them street cred.

I would NEVER treat one of these like a lady if she were following me. And two of them? I quite frankly do not think you know what you are talking about in this situation. I would fight them without any hesitation and make absolutely sure they were so beaten they would not remember my face or what happened in the last week. rest assured that is what it takes with these ‘people’ because they will come after you, your family and your friends if you allow yourself to be walked over.

On paper, you are right, in real life these massive blobs of women are more dangerous then most men.
[/quote]

I, quite frankly, think your mind distorted what your eyes are seeing.

I dont think they were trying to kill him as they didnt have a deadly weapon, nor do I assume that common street trash possess black ops hand to hand combat skills.

He retreated to get a fucking weapon. Not to get away. You ARE missing something.

Last. These women are not big. At least, not bigger than the criminal. I guess they are big relative to you though, I’m not sure. Even if they are physically imposing, what threat does a person of any size pose while on the floor after being beaten with a rod a half dozen times?

Those of you who think that this is an appropriate response to getting slapped dont seem to understand that your logic dictates that KILLING the woman is justified here. That is absurd. [/quote]

nobody is saying that killing is justified. nobody.

have you ever seen women fight? they do not need a weapon, they simply dance on your head till you go into seizures and there is no stopping them. 2-3 guys need to drag them away and hold them otherwise they go right back at it again. you need to take a look at some of the videos available where two women beat up one other person. it is sickening and violence of women against men is spreading

both you and BG focus only on the slap and NOT on the being followed to continue the exchange. that, quite frankly, surprises me. why is that overlooked? the guy did retreat, not to get a weapon but to get away. they followed, he grabbed a weapon. I can understand him neutralizing what he perceives as a threat. he does it in the only way he knows how. I understand BG’s point though because legally this kid is fucked. they expect him to do something very few could do. this is how the system screws these young men.

you huff and puff because you expect him to act as you would have done, or another ‘reasonable person’ like Fighting Irish (yeah right) but do not come from the same area as this young man. he can’t and we cannot expect it.

you guys are looking at it from your perspective, both big strong men, one with training. you are not looking at it from the perspective of someone who is the same size as these women, knows what these kinds of women are capable of and is being attacked by them. i feel for this kid and perhaps that’s why I am pissing in the wind because his life is fucked. these two heifers are going to get away with it, won’t do time, get attention and street cred and get to eat at McD’s for free for the rest of their lives. and you know what? they will fuck with another guy, and another and another, till they do kill somebody.

349

Iammarquos, good post. I grew up around 3rd Ward. I have seen girl gang fights that make anything guys do pale in comparison. These “women” do not back down. They keep fighting you until they severely hurt you.

Anyone who thinks these women would have DEFINITELY retreated has not been raised around this shit.

My dad used to teach at Woodson Middle School in Houston. Not a great part of town back then. These girls would get into fights so bad, police would have to be called…and that is while at school.

These “women” gave ZERO impression that they would stop.

The people who even think they would have probably grown up in pretty nice neighborhoods where this hardly ever happened.

Welcome to reality.

350

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

Those of you who think that this is an appropriate response to getting slapped dont seem to understand that your logic dictates that KILLING the woman is justified here. That is absurd. [/quote]

If someone slaps me in the face, I’m not thinking clearly after that. No doubt I’d calm down after the offender was on the floor, but I could get unlucky and have the piece of shit die from the first blow. “Appropriate” is not a concept that would be at the forefront of my mind right then and there.

I think you wouldn’t be saying this if that was two guys jumping the counter and following him in there. You would see the potential threat was much bigger, and you may be right, but maybe not. Women can cause some serious damage too, as IamMarqaos is pointing out.

351

I’ve seen girls/women in Baltimore slice eachother’s faces open OUT OF SPITE. Rip each others earrings out, kick each others faces in with their Timberland’s (yes, they wear Timb’s, not high heels). I’ve seem them shoot people, rob people, curb people - they’re pretty fucking crazy. I am actually friends with a former female hood-rat, and her story and the shit that she endured/survived would make most of you cry.

In other words, these “women” are more bad ass than most “reasonable, civilized” men.

352

yeah, you guys are right. we should have let al capone, stanley williams, and richard ramirez write the penal code. those guys know what appropriate actions/reactions are.

353

^LOLZ

What we do know is that these “laws” are usually not designed with the kid in mind who grew up with one parent in the ghetto until she went to jail who raised himself on food stamps and has been gang initiated but tries to turn his life around.

They are usually designed for the average middle class guy who thinks these types of women don’t exist and that they would simply run away if given the chance.

LOL

354

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I’ve seen girls/women in Baltimore slice eachother’s faces open OUT OF SPITE. Rip each others earrings out, kick each others faces in with their Timberland’s (yes, they wear Timb’s, not high heels). I’ve seem them shoot people, rob people, curb people - they’re pretty fucking crazy. I am actually friends with a former female hood-rat, and her story and the shit that she endured/survived would make most of you cry.

In other words, these “women” are more bad ass than most “reasonable, civilized” men.[/quote]

Naaaah. They would simply run away if he hadn’t kept beating them. There is no way in hell they would act just like dudes.

Remember, we have to keep protecting the women no matter what they do.

355

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
yeah, you guys are right. we should have let al capone, stanley williams, and richard ramirez write the penal code. those guys know what appropriate actions/reactions are. [/quote]

No one is saying that. MY point (and I know I’m late to the party) is that it is both unrealistic and irresponsible for a society to have a “set standard” and then actively disenfranchise a significant (historically repressed) portion of the population to where they cannot reasonably meet said standard.

I am not naive enough to believe that he will not go back to prison for doing what he did (even though a part of me feels they had it coming). My point is that ANYONE who grew up the way he did would have a very hard time finding the level of restraint that the law requires in that situation. A situation he did not initiate.

356

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I think that MOST of us would be more comfortable living 500 years ago swinging a battle axe into the faces of our enemy (or even 100 years ago in the “wild wild west” with a six-gun LOL), but this is 2011. The “rule of law” prevails, and those laws were written by people who never grew up on the street or had to worry about getting jumped while AT WORK.

They expect a “reasonable standard” of behavior that is “civilized”. But you take a guy who’s mother was on crack, never met his daddy, grew up in the projects on government cheese, with a fifth grade reading level cuz he “didn’t get left behind”; a man who grew up around guns and violence and incest and abuse and they hold this man to the same standard as those with college degrees and born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

Then they expect this man who grew up SURVIVING, to behave in a “civilized way” in the heat of the moment… He is expected to have the intellectual strength (even though his intellect was abandoned by “the system” and left to atrophy) to override his survival instinct (the most powerful instinct next to reproduction) which has been relied upon, honed and developed from a young age and is basically the only reason he is alive. That’s an internal conflict that will not be won in most cases. Yet somehow, society expects him to win it?

I believe the RESULTS of our Justice/Educational/Socioeconomic system point to it’s fallibility…

Yes he hit them while they were down (and out of sight) after the initial attack was APPARENTLY neutralized. But they wouldn’t have BEEN down had they not slapped him, jumped his counter and cornered him at which time he fought back. Because he scanned a 50…

Fractured skull and broken arm. Not dead. I don’t have a problem with this outcome personally. The women in question were not my kin, so I really don’t give a shit. “If you’re gonna play pussy you’re gonna get fucked”, as my daddy used to say. In my day and in the folly of my youth, I’ve done worse over less because I felt at the time that the situation warranted it. I’d be willing to wager that MOST of us who grew up on the street have… But we didn’t get caught! (I got caught for armed robbery, not for every time in my life where I beat the shit out of someone)

The sad reality is that this man will be convicted. Again. For responding to a situation he didn’t ask for.

Gotta love “justice”.

I do believe the guy is gonna get convicted though. [/quote]

See, at least youre arguing that the system is flawed. Something I dont necessarily agree or disagree with at this point in my life.

I dont understand why people are making this a gender issue. Sure it looks worse from a moral POV that women got beat up but if it was 2 men I’d feel the same way.

You simply cant beat people to the brink of death with a metal rod as retaliation for getting slapped in the face and then chased. The day that becomes a socially acceptable response is the day ‘civilized society’ loses all meaning. Half the people here are coming up with fantastical hypotheticals where these women were on the verge of slaying the cashier. This was a should-be-fist-fight that turned into a borderline attempted intentional manslaughter because this guy went nuts.

Im done here. Enjoy your heathenish view points everyone.

357

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
yeah, you guys are right. we should have let al capone, stanley williams, and richard ramirez write the penal code. those guys know what appropriate actions/reactions are. [/quote]

it is both unrealistic and irresponsible for a society to have a “set standard” and then actively disenfranchise a significant (historically repressed) portion of the population to where they cannot reasonably meet said standard.

My point is that ANYONE who grew up the way he did would have a very hard time finding the level of restraint that the law requires in that situation.
[/quote]

So what’s your solution?

A set of laws for hood rats and a set of laws for productive members of society?

There are too many ‘success’ stories of people getting out of bad neighborhoods/upbringings for me to believe that this response is the norm.

Hell, Professor X is a DOCTOR and he grew up in the THIRD MO’FUCKIN WARD

358

[quote]Professor X wrote:
^LOLZ

What we do know is that these “laws” are usually not designed with the kid in mind who grew up with one parent in the ghetto until she went to jail who raised himself on food stamps and has been gang initiated but tries to turn his life around.

They are usually designed for the average middle class guy who thinks these types of women don’t exist and that they would simply run away if given the chance.

LOL[/quote]

I will argue that he’s doing a pretty shitty job of turning his life around by cracking the skull of the person who slapped him. Seems like he hasnt reformed at all.

I have never once claimed that my opinion would be different if this situation involved no women. Im not sure why you keep harping on that issue. Well, I sort of do know why, but your inability to formulate a coherent, on point, argument is not going to change at this point.

359

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]PimpBot5000 wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
Go to japan, and lets see if you ever find a japanese woman doing that to a man. they wouldn’t dare, they have respect. they are raised to have respect(as they should) for men.[/quote]

Dude, I once pissed off a Japanese woman so much (simply by not calling her back after a date) that she broke into my apartment, hid in a kitchen cupboard - presumably for several hours - and started hurling my own dishes at me after I arrived home from work.[/quote]

I’m not talking about a japanese woman in this country. Shes an american woman. I’m talking in japan. They are raised differently there. All women here suffer from the same attitude.[/quote]

lol, you obviously don’t know anything about Japan.[/quote]

I know that women there, do not act like women in this country. they are raised to respect men. and to not get mouthy.

360

Just want to point out that if you believe this guy’s background, upbringing, the system etc, excuses his accountability for his response, you have to apply the same excuses to the women who attacked him. Not to dismiss the point the guy didn’t ask for this to happen but where do you draw the line in accountability?

Perhaps it’s just unfair to expect those women to be civilized, too.

361

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:

nobody is saying that killing is justified. nobody.

have you ever seen women fight? they do not need a weapon, they simply dance on your head till you go into seizures and there is no stopping them. 2-3 guys need to drag them away and hold them otherwise they go right back at it again. you need to take a look at some of the videos available where two women beat up one other person. it is sickening and violence of women against men is spreading

both you and BG focus only on the slap and NOT on the being followed to continue the exchange. that, quite frankly, surprises me. why is that overlooked? the guy did retreat, not to get a weapon but to get away. they followed, he grabbed a weapon. I can understand him neutralizing what he perceives as a threat. he does it in the only way he knows how. I understand BG’s point though because legally this kid is fucked. they expect him to do something very few could do. this is how the system screws these young men.

you huff and puff because you expect him to act as you would have done, or another ‘reasonable person’ like Fighting Irish (yeah right) but do not come from the same area as this young man. he can’t and we cannot expect it.

you guys are looking at it from your perspective, both big strong men, one with training. you are not looking at it from the perspective of someone who is the same size as these women, knows what these kinds of women are capable of and is being attacked by them. i feel for this kid and perhaps that’s why I am pissing in the wind because his life is fucked. these two heifers are going to get away with it, won’t do time, get attention and street cred and get to eat at McD’s for free for the rest of their lives. and you know what? they will fuck with another guy, and another and another, till they do kill somebody.[/quote]

I’ll try to keep it in some order.

I’ve seen these kind of women fight. I’ve broken them up. I don’t need to be informed about “these kind of women”, the “third ward” or any of that other shit. I have direct extended experience with it. At the end of the day, they are still women and can be put down quite easily. IT DID NOT REQUIRE A DEADLY WEAPON OR LETHAL FORCE.

I didn’t focus ONLY on the slap. And some of you are ignoring that he apparently hit her back or attempted to and, it’s questionable whether she connected at all. A LONG time ago, MANY posts ago, I conceded you could make an argument for him to wield a weapon (I didn’t say use it, or use it repeatedly) however, I AM focusing on the extended beating, particularly when they were down. All I hear is emotion, and a complete ignorance of the law. You try that “heat of the battle” shit in court, and watch your ass go right to jail. When you have this much disagreement about an apparent threat, it’s pretty strong evidence that the “threat” isn’t as clear as some of you are trying to imagine it. That they “could” continue an armless attack is irrelevant. If they did, THEN they get whacked again. At the end of the day, you guys are ignoring they were down and unarmed.

He did not “retreat”. Stop lying to yourself. He could have retreated his ass to the back office or out the rear door. He was not cornered. What fucking video you guys watching. He went around the corner to arm himself. Seriously smfh.

This is NOT how the system “screws young men”. You’re fucking expected to function in a polite society of laws. Preach your liberal bullshit to me when one of these “screwed young men” makes you or a member of your family the victim of a violent crime. Argue society has failed them, and you got my attention. But the laws apply to us all.

“Where” he comes from is legally fucking irrelevant. He’s working in fucking Manhattan. THAT’S relevant. And if he did this shit at the Mikey Dee’s up in Harlem, his ass still gets arrested and charged. If you want to be part of this society, you have to function in it. Make your point that society is failing these kids and again, I’ll listen.

I AM NOT looking at it from MY perspective, being large and with training. I am looking at it sans emotion (an emotion by the way that I’ve stated that I share with you guys) from a legal and practical standpoint. I see bitches like this every fucking week. He should have punched her in her fucking mouth and kept it moving. But he picked up a deadly weapon, used it, and continue to use it after two UNARMED women were DOWN. In my opinion, this cannot be legally defended. By the way, where you from? Because I’m around this shit every day. My perspective is very measured here.

His life was fucked when he was born unfortunately. He’s no stranger to violence, and here’s some in-the-know perspective for you; he’s capable of dialing it up quick. You and not many others are built like this. People like this ARE dangerous. People like this do not “think”, they act. He fucking shot someone 10 years prior during an argument. And now again, he chose to wield a deadly weapon and USE IT, without hesitation, and he kept using it. Spare me the bullshit and go hire him to babyshit YOUR kids okay? I know violence. And I know people built for it. He has no problem with it, no inhibition. MOST PEOPLE DO.

As for the future for these two dumb bitches, they’ll both end up in jail one day. They aint killers. They’re just big mouthed bitches. They aint rare. The cashier IS pretty rare though.

362

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:

If someone slaps me in the face, I’m not thinking clearly after that. [/quote]

False bravado.

Someone that you know can hurt you, willing to kill you, and/or kick the living shit out of you slaps you in the face and I bet you fucking have all your wits about you and carefully consider your options.

You get hit, you’re doing the mental algebra and you know it. If you don’t, you’re fucking rare.

363

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I’ve seen girls/women in Baltimore slice eachother’s faces open OUT OF SPITE. Rip each others earrings out, kick each others faces in with their Timberland’s (yes, they wear Timb’s, not high heels). I’ve seem them shoot people, rob people, curb people - they’re pretty fucking crazy. I am actually friends with a former female hood-rat, and her story and the shit that she endured/survived would make most of you cry.

In other words, these “women” are more bad ass than most “reasonable, civilized” men.[/quote]

Agreed homie. But you know this really isn’t the crux of the issue or debate. No one here has stated that these women are not capable of violence. That’s the fallacious argument X keeps harping on. Those hoes were down. Period. He continued to beat them. Not restrain them. Beat them. You and I both know that’s a one way pass to jail.

364

[quote]Professor X wrote:
^LOLZ

What we do know is that these “laws” are usually not designed with the kid in mind who grew up with one parent in the ghetto until she went to jail who raised himself on food stamps and has been gang initiated but tries to turn his life around.

They are usually designed for the average middle class guy who thinks these types of women don’t exist and that they would simply run away if given the chance.

LOL[/quote]

Wow.

Do you really not get it, or do you just refuse to concede a point?

There is NOTHING wrong with the applicable law. The law does not require that this kid be PERFECT. But you cannot argue that what he did was REASONABLE.

They are down.
They are unarmed.
He continued to beat them.
With a deadly weapon.

If a JURY decides that these women constituted a threat requiring deadly force, and that when they were down they constituted a continuing deadly threat, the kid walks. So is your problem with the LAW, or the jury he’ll get? Which, by the way, will be mixed race New Yorkers.

Should we have “suburb laws” and “ghetto laws”? Tell me about the other law when your mother is victimized. Tell me about the kid’s background when justice is required on her behalf. I remember you being pretty fucking conservative when discussing the same kind of kids with the same type of backgrounds when it came to the experiences of your teacher/mother.

They COULD have gotten up and flied too or turned into some fucking comic book super hero if we allow for any possibility. But if you saw a threat there after they were down, then you’re looking at a different video.

365

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
yeah, you guys are right. we should have let al capone, stanley williams, and richard ramirez write the penal code. those guys know what appropriate actions/reactions are. [/quote]

No one is saying that. MY point (and I know I’m late to the party) is that it is both unrealistic and irresponsible for a society to have a “set standard” and then actively disenfranchise a significant (historically repressed) portion of the population to where they cannot reasonably meet said standard.

I am not naive enough to believe that he will not go back to prison for doing what he did (even though a part of me feels they had it coming). My point is that ANYONE who grew up the way he did would have a very hard time finding the level of restraint that the law requires in that situation. A situation he did not initiate.
[/quote]

Well then he doesn’t deserve to walk around among us. Period.

I disagree with you 100%.

“Restraint” you say. I say common decency. Two people are down. And he continues to beat them with a deadly weapon. That cannot be excused AC. Defend his picking up a weapon. Hell, defend his swinging it a few times based on his background. But you cannot, under any reasonable analysis, defend his continuing to strike them when they were down.

And if you’re not capable of basic decency, well then you DO belong in prison.

There is a world of difference between “I don’t give a fuck” (which is really the background you are describing) and “I don’t know better”. Because they fucking well DO know better.

366

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Half the people here are coming up with fantastical hypotheticals where these women were on the verge of slaying the cashier. [/quote]

No. It’s one person. And it’s those super-endowed ghetto hoes that were about to kill the guy - even as they lay on the ground while he took a few more swings at the plate.

367

AC when we talk next we’re going to argue about this :slight_smile: LOL