Excessive or Well Deserved?

Off Topic
328

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

…As soon as she was subdued, he should have stopped… [/quote]

Monday morning quarterbacking at its finest.
[/quote]

The funny part of this is that our criminal justice system is based 100% on ‘monday morning quarterbacking’. That’s all a jury does. Analyzes a situation after it happens.

In a civilized society, a rational adult is EXPECTED to consider things like how the threat has changed from moment to moment when deciding upon on an appropriate reaction.

I understand that not everyone possesses perfect judgement. But that is why a lot of this stuff is judged based on how a reasonable person is expected to act. If you think it’s reasonable for a person to beat a downed person with a rod to the point of a skull fracture, then I youre sitting on my jury if I ever attempt to kill someone.

[/quote]

I understand.

See my football analogy above.[/quote]

by the way, both women down by .38 in the video, under the counter, out of sight. at .45 (7 SECONDS LATER) he begins hitting again (2 x on camera and a third is heard off camera).

Girls are down.
He stops hitting.
One Mississippi
Two Mississippi
Three Mississippi
Four Mississippi
Five Mississippi
Six Mississippi
SEVEN MISSISSIPPI (c’mon man, count with me now)…

…Oh, I’m going to hit them again (while they are down). Thwack, thwack.

And another thwack for good measure. “Heat of the moment” , “fractions of seconds” my fucking ass friend.

Push, are we looking at the same video?

You can’t convict?

I changed my mind. I would convict him.

EDIT:

I got that wrong. He hit them FIVE TIMES while they were down.

Good luck with that defense.

329

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

Right. Strangely enough, the trials I’ve watched and the one trial I second sat, the defendant testified each time. In the trial I was apart of he got grilled hard on his history. Being a member of the bloods and having 3 prior felony convictions doesnt bode well in a gun possessin case lol. I dont have any real world experience with a defendant’s criminal history being suppressed during a trial. [/quote]

from my understanding it’s a fairly technical and jurisdictional sensitive issue but I’d say generally if they don’t testify, and you don’t open any evidential doors, it’s generally viewed to be too prejudicial to the defendant to allow it (and rightfully so as long as it had no bearing on the present alleged crime).

330

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
But was a skull fracture justice for her attempted or connected slap? Hardly.

[/quote]

You mention this part quite a bit and if that was the only thing then I am inclined to agree with you. Had we seen him get slapped, go to the back to retrieve a pipe and then proceed to beat the living daylights out of these women then of course it was overkill.

But doesn’t the fact that he actually retreated from the situation and then found that these women were CHASING him, yelling and obviously wanting to continue with violence, change things. To me it does.

Why in God’s name would two women follow you, a man, if not to cause grave damage to you?

You have seen women fight, right? There is no stopping them. Plenty of memories from high school/college/bar fights where when women fight it is WW III. Plenty of videos on the interwebz as well. Seen the one where the two women beat up the transgender guy? They continued till that person experienced seizures and the interference of a nice old lady did nothing to deter them. And they kept coming back and back and back.

When you get slapped and a slap back does not resolve the situation, in my experience a women is then out for blood and she will not stop till you are in a world of hurt. And two women? Quite frankly, I would fear for my safety in a big way.

Edit: well shit, you answered some of this in the posts following :slight_smile:
And you are right, the first time i watched the video i did not realize that much time had elapsed between hits. But, for devil’s advocacy sake, does that not mean they were trying to get up (even though that might be normal given the circumstances)?

331

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
But was a skull fracture justice for her attempted or connected slap? Hardly.

[/quote]

You mention this part quite a bit and if that was the only thing then I am inclined to agree with you. Had we seen him get slapped, go to the back to retrieve a pipe and then proceed to beat the living daylights out of these women then of course it was overkill.

But doesn’t the fact that he actually retreated from the situation and then found that these women were CHASING him, yelling and obviously wanting to continue with violence, change things. To me it does.

Why in God’s name would two women follow you, a man, if not to cause grave damage to you?

You have seen women fight, right? There is no stopping them. Plenty of memories from high school/college/bar fights where when women fight it is WW III. Plenty of videos on the interwebz as well. Seen the one where the two women beat up the transgender guy? They continued till that person experienced seizures and the interference of a nice old lady did nothing to deter them. And they kept coming back and back and back.

When you get slapped and a slap back does not resolve the situation, in my experience a women is then out for blood and she will not stop till you are in a world of hurt. And two women? Quite frankly, I would fear for my safety in a big way.

Edit: well shit, you answered some of this in the posts following :slight_smile:
And you are right, the first time i watched the video i did not realize that much time had elapsed between hits. But, for devil’s advocacy sake, does that not mean they were trying to get up (even though that might be normal given the circumstances)?[/quote]

Trying to get up? To fight back??? lol

Come on. IF they were trying to get up it is almost certain that they would do so to escape their pending death.

Unless there is evidence that the women were on PCP, I think it’s more than safe to say that the guy could have stopped hitting them and left the premises as soon as they fell to the floor.

337

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
But was a skull fracture justice for her attempted or connected slap? Hardly.

[/quote]

You mention this part quite a bit and if that was the only thing then I am inclined to agree with you. Had we seen him get slapped, go to the back to retrieve a pipe and then proceed to beat the living daylights out of these women then of course it was overkill.

But doesn’t the fact that he actually retreated from the situation and then found that these women were CHASING him, yelling and obviously wanting to continue with violence, change things. To me it does.

Why in God’s name would two women follow you, a man, if not to cause grave damage to you?

You have seen women fight, right? There is no stopping them. Plenty of memories from high school/college/bar fights where when women fight it is WW III. Plenty of videos on the interwebz as well. Seen the one where the two women beat up the transgender guy? They continued till that person experienced seizures and the interference of a nice old lady did nothing to deter them. And they kept coming back and back and back.

When you get slapped and a slap back does not resolve the situation, in my experience a women is then out for blood and she will not stop till you are in a world of hurt. And two women? Quite frankly, I would fear for my safety in a big way.

Edit: well shit, you answered some of this in the posts following :slight_smile:
And you are right, the first time i watched the video i did not realize that much time had elapsed between hits. But, for devil’s advocacy sake, does that not mean they were trying to get up (even though that might be normal given the circumstances)?[/quote]

Trying to get up? To fight back??? lol

Come on. IF they were trying to get up it is almost certain that they would do so to escape their pending death.

Unless there is evidence that the women were on PCP, I think it’s more than safe to say that the guy could have stopped hitting them and left the premises as soon as they fell to the floor. [/quote]

It is not that I do not understand what you are saying and he could have done a lot of things in hindsight. BUT, what about in the heat of the moment? The odd thing is that many seem to think that he was trying to kill them but the women were NOT trying to kill him.

What made you think that these women had perhaps only another slap in mind? And what makes you think that an untrained person can just switch it off after feeling threatened this way. He retreated and he was followed. Perhaps I am missing something, perhaps he had a back door he could run to and get away. We do not know. I have been around women like this and these are not the dainty gals you perhaps grew up with. These are 200lb heifers who can fight and have no issue with getting you down and dancing on your head. These are the kind of women that will leave you in a bloody pulp, needing diapers for the rest of your life. It would give them street cred.

I would NEVER treat one of these like a lady if she were following me. And two of them? I quite frankly do not think you know what you are talking about in this situation. I would fight them without any hesitation and make absolutely sure they were so beaten they would not remember my face or what happened in the last week. rest assured that is what it takes with these ‘people’ because they will come after you, your family and your friends if you allow yourself to be walked over.

On paper, you are right, in real life these massive blobs of women are more dangerous then most men.

338

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Well, the system is set up so that his lawyers can make the above argument, among others. Like I said, a plea is likely here but I see him going back to jail for some time. But the part you and others are missing is that he did what he did with a weapon. The weapon is a game changer. If he had been defending with his fists, feet, etc., then those extra couple blows might go unpunished. But he wielded a deadly weapon and that’s the part some of you can’t wrap your minds around.

Pick up a weapon, and your margin for error is narrower - AS IT SHOULD BE.

The woman could have died. Surely she didn’t deserve to die for acting like the little dyke animal she is and slapping someone does she? [/quote]

Depends who you ask around here, apparently.

People cannot understand that whether you think it’s right or not, these are the laws. And those laws, like you said, become a lot tighter when you brandish a weapon.

This is why so many fucking people who get arrested say, “BUT IT WAS SELF-DEFENSE!” Bullshit son, you lost your head and overreacted and now you’re up for manslaughter or murder.

“The heat of battle” doesn’t apply here. Keep your head or your ass ends up in jail. Deal with it.
[/quote]

Yes, and mental state and background still go into the final decision if presented to a jury. A jury does not think in black and white.

This man is going to be crucified laregly because of his past actions.

if this were some honor roll student who never got in trouble before, whose father was a stand out in the community and whose family was well known, you can bet the outcome would be largely different.[/quote]

Im not a lawyer yet, but I dont see how is past action is relevant to this crime. The jury shouldnt be informed of his past crime. Maybe they will know he is a convicted felon, but unless he takes the stand, which he may have to do, I’m not sure the prosecutor can just give details of the past crime as evidence of anything. [/quote]

If it went to trial (which I don’t think it will - he’d be convicted I think and he can’t count on any manner of jury nullification in New York County), I can’t see a way for him to defend without taking the stand since he will have to testify as to his state of mind which is central to his defense. Once he takes the stand, past acts are probably fair game. I see no way to defend this at trial without his testifying. Prosecutor won’t “give details”, they will just ask the questions :slight_smile: Defendant will give the details :)[/quote]

Right. Strangely enough, the trials I’ve watched and the one trial I second sat, the defendant testified each time. In the trial I was apart of he got grilled hard on his history. Being a member of the bloods and having 3 prior felony convictions doesnt bode well in a gun possessin case lol. I dont have any real world experience with a defendant’s criminal history being suppressed during a trial. [/quote]

  1. I’ve paid no attention to this thread.
  2. Evidence of prior bad acts generally not admissible to prove action in conformity therewith; it is admissible to show things like motive, opportunity, intent, plan, etc.
  3. Evidence of character generally not admissible, except to rebut evidence put on by the other side.
339

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
by the way, both women down by .38 in the video, under the counter, out of sight. at .45 (7 SECONDS LATER) he begins hitting again (2 x on camera and a third is heard off camera).

Girls are down.
He stops hitting.
One Mississippi
Two Mississippi
Three Mississippi
Four Mississippi
Five Mississippi
Six Mississippi
SEVEN MISSISSIPPI (c’mon man, count with me now)…

…Oh, I’m going to hit them again (while they are down). Thwack, thwack.

And another thwack for good measure. “Heat of the moment” , “fractions of seconds” my fucking ass friend.

Push, are we looking at the same video?..

[/quote]

Maybe not. The videos I have watched do not show a 7 second interlude (more like 3 - 4). Send me the link for the one you are referring to.[/quote]

340

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
But was a skull fracture justice for her attempted or connected slap? Hardly.

[/quote]

You mention this part quite a bit and if that was the only thing then I am inclined to agree with you. Had we seen him get slapped, go to the back to retrieve a pipe and then proceed to beat the living daylights out of these women then of course it was overkill.

But doesn’t the fact that he actually retreated from the situation and then found that these women were CHASING him, yelling and obviously wanting to continue with violence, change things. To me it does.

Why in God’s name would two women follow you, a man, if not to cause grave damage to you?

You have seen women fight, right? There is no stopping them. Plenty of memories from high school/college/bar fights where when women fight it is WW III. Plenty of videos on the interwebz as well. Seen the one where the two women beat up the transgender guy? They continued till that person experienced seizures and the interference of a nice old lady did nothing to deter them. And they kept coming back and back and back.

When you get slapped and a slap back does not resolve the situation, in my experience a women is then out for blood and she will not stop till you are in a world of hurt. And two women? Quite frankly, I would fear for my safety in a big way.

Edit: well shit, you answered some of this in the posts following :slight_smile:
And you are right, the first time i watched the video i did not realize that much time had elapsed between hits. But, for devil’s advocacy sake, does that not mean they were trying to get up (even though that might be normal given the circumstances)?[/quote]

Trying to get up? To fight back??? lol

Come on. IF they were trying to get up it is almost certain that they would do so to escape their pending death.

Unless there is evidence that the women were on PCP, I think it’s more than safe to say that the guy could have stopped hitting them and left the premises as soon as they fell to the floor. [/quote]

It is not that I do not understand what you are saying and he could have done a lot of things in hindsight. BUT, what about in the heat of the moment? The odd thing is that many seem to think that he was trying to kill them but the women were NOT trying to kill him.

What made you think that these women had perhaps only another slap in mind? And what makes you think that an untrained person can just switch it off after feeling threatened this way. He retreated and he was followed. Perhaps I am missing something, perhaps he had a back door he could run to and get away. We do not know. I have been around women like this and these are not the dainty gals you perhaps grew up with. These are 200lb heifers who can fight and have no issue with getting you down and dancing on your head. These are the kind of women that will leave you in a bloody pulp, needing diapers for the rest of your life. It would give them street cred.

I would NEVER treat one of these like a lady if she were following me. And two of them? I quite frankly do not think you know what you are talking about in this situation. I would fight them without any hesitation and make absolutely sure they were so beaten they would not remember my face or what happened in the last week. rest assured that is what it takes with these ‘people’ because they will come after you, your family and your friends if you allow yourself to be walked over.

On paper, you are right, in real life these massive blobs of women are more dangerous then most men.
[/quote]

dude, I don’t know what video you’re looking at but the one little mouthy dyke is five-foot-nothing. 7 seconds pass while they are down. SEVEN. And then he takes more swipes at them. This is indefensible EVEN under your hyperbolic analysis.

341

CALL THE FUCKING COPS!!!

NOOOOOOO

NOOOOOO

NOOOOOOO!

lololololololol

342

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
But was a skull fracture justice for her attempted or connected slap? Hardly.

[/quote]

You mention this part quite a bit and if that was the only thing then I am inclined to agree with you. Had we seen him get slapped, go to the back to retrieve a pipe and then proceed to beat the living daylights out of these women then of course it was overkill.

But doesn’t the fact that he actually retreated from the situation and then found that these women were CHASING him, yelling and obviously wanting to continue with violence, change things. To me it does.

Why in God’s name would two women follow you, a man, if not to cause grave damage to you?

You have seen women fight, right? There is no stopping them. Plenty of memories from high school/college/bar fights where when women fight it is WW III. Plenty of videos on the interwebz as well. Seen the one where the two women beat up the transgender guy? They continued till that person experienced seizures and the interference of a nice old lady did nothing to deter them. And they kept coming back and back and back.

When you get slapped and a slap back does not resolve the situation, in my experience a women is then out for blood and she will not stop till you are in a world of hurt. And two women? Quite frankly, I would fear for my safety in a big way.

Edit: well shit, you answered some of this in the posts following :slight_smile:
And you are right, the first time i watched the video i did not realize that much time had elapsed between hits. But, for devil’s advocacy sake, does that not mean they were trying to get up (even though that might be normal given the circumstances)?[/quote]

Trying to get up? To fight back??? lol

Come on. IF they were trying to get up it is almost certain that they would do so to escape their pending death.

Unless there is evidence that the women were on PCP, I think it’s more than safe to say that the guy could have stopped hitting them and left the premises as soon as they fell to the floor. [/quote]

It is not that I do not understand what you are saying and he could have done a lot of things in hindsight. BUT, what about in the heat of the moment? The odd thing is that many seem to think that he was trying to kill them but the women were NOT trying to kill him.

What made you think that these women had perhaps only another slap in mind? And what makes you think that an untrained person can just switch it off after feeling threatened this way. He retreated and he was followed. Perhaps I am missing something, perhaps he had a back door he could run to and get away. We do not know. I have been around women like this and these are not the dainty gals you perhaps grew up with. These are 200lb heifers who can fight and have no issue with getting you down and dancing on your head. These are the kind of women that will leave you in a bloody pulp, needing diapers for the rest of your life. It would give them street cred.

I would NEVER treat one of these like a lady if she were following me. And two of them? I quite frankly do not think you know what you are talking about in this situation. I would fight them without any hesitation and make absolutely sure they were so beaten they would not remember my face or what happened in the last week. rest assured that is what it takes with these ‘people’ because they will come after you, your family and your friends if you allow yourself to be walked over.

On paper, you are right, in real life these massive blobs of women are more dangerous then most men.
[/quote]

dude, I don’t know what video you’re looking at but the one little mouthy dyke is five-foot-nothing. 7 seconds pass while they are down. SEVEN. And then he takes more swipes at them. This is indefensible EVEN under your hyperbolic analysis. [/quote]

They were probably trying to get back up then, or maybe she called his momma a whore. What the fuck do you care, they were on the attack, and ANY defense is acceptable. There shouldn’t be degrees to this shit. You attack me, I get to kill you. Simple, fair, and waaay less complicated than all this legal mumbo jumbo you guys have been spewing :slight_smile:

343

Agreed. Any pauses seem like they were getting right back up…and again, not once did these women show they would stop until beaten down completely.

They chased this dude down, for crying out loud.

You can argue whether he needed to hit them again, but the WHY seems to be because they were continuing to come at him.

I mean, again, if these were men, no one would be thinking they would just get up and run away after attacking like this.

344

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
But was a skull fracture justice for her attempted or connected slap? Hardly.

[/quote]

You mention this part quite a bit and if that was the only thing then I am inclined to agree with you. Had we seen him get slapped, go to the back to retrieve a pipe and then proceed to beat the living daylights out of these women then of course it was overkill.

But doesn’t the fact that he actually retreated from the situation and then found that these women were CHASING him, yelling and obviously wanting to continue with violence, change things. To me it does.

Why in God’s name would two women follow you, a man, if not to cause grave damage to you?

You have seen women fight, right? There is no stopping them. Plenty of memories from high school/college/bar fights where when women fight it is WW III. Plenty of videos on the interwebz as well. Seen the one where the two women beat up the transgender guy? They continued till that person experienced seizures and the interference of a nice old lady did nothing to deter them. And they kept coming back and back and back.

When you get slapped and a slap back does not resolve the situation, in my experience a women is then out for blood and she will not stop till you are in a world of hurt. And two women? Quite frankly, I would fear for my safety in a big way.

Edit: well shit, you answered some of this in the posts following :slight_smile:
And you are right, the first time i watched the video i did not realize that much time had elapsed between hits. But, for devil’s advocacy sake, does that not mean they were trying to get up (even though that might be normal given the circumstances)?[/quote]

Trying to get up? To fight back??? lol

Come on. IF they were trying to get up it is almost certain that they would do so to escape their pending death.

Unless there is evidence that the women were on PCP, I think it’s more than safe to say that the guy could have stopped hitting them and left the premises as soon as they fell to the floor. [/quote]

It is not that I do not understand what you are saying and he could have done a lot of things in hindsight. BUT, what about in the heat of the moment? The odd thing is that many seem to think that he was trying to kill them but the women were NOT trying to kill him.

What made you think that these women had perhaps only another slap in mind? And what makes you think that an untrained person can just switch it off after feeling threatened this way. He retreated and he was followed. Perhaps I am missing something, perhaps he had a back door he could run to and get away. We do not know. I have been around women like this and these are not the dainty gals you perhaps grew up with. These are 200lb heifers who can fight and have no issue with getting you down and dancing on your head. These are the kind of women that will leave you in a bloody pulp, needing diapers for the rest of your life. It would give them street cred.

I would NEVER treat one of these like a lady if she were following me. And two of them? I quite frankly do not think you know what you are talking about in this situation. I would fight them without any hesitation and make absolutely sure they were so beaten they would not remember my face or what happened in the last week. rest assured that is what it takes with these ‘people’ because they will come after you, your family and your friends if you allow yourself to be walked over.

On paper, you are right, in real life these massive blobs of women are more dangerous then most men.
[/quote]

I, quite frankly, think your mind distorted what your eyes are seeing.

I dont think they were trying to kill him as they didnt have a deadly weapon, nor do I assume that common street trash possess black ops hand to hand combat skills.

He retreated to get a fucking weapon. Not to get away. You ARE missing something.

Last. These women are not big. At least, not bigger than the criminal. I guess they are big relative to you though, I’m not sure. Even if they are physically imposing, what threat does a person of any size pose while on the floor after being beaten with a rod a half dozen times?

Those of you who think that this is an appropriate response to getting slapped dont seem to understand that your logic dictates that KILLING the woman is justified here. That is absurd.

345

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Agreed. Any pauses seem like they were getting right back up…and again, not once did these women show they would stop until beaten down completely.

They chased this dude down, for crying out loud.

You can argue whether he needed to hit them again, but the WHY seems to be because they were continuing to come at him.

I mean, again, if these were men, no one would be thinking they would just get up and run away after attacking like this.[/quote]

So, based on the video, you are giving the benefit of the doubt to a convicted killer, that the woman were attempting to get back up to fight back against a man with a weapon.

I honestly think that you live in a bubble.

346

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Agreed. Any pauses seem like they were getting right back up…and again, not once did these women show they would stop until beaten down completely.

They chased this dude down, for crying out loud.

You can argue whether he needed to hit them again, but the WHY seems to be because they were continuing to come at him.

I mean, again, if these were men, no one would be thinking they would just get up and run away after attacking like this.[/quote]

So, based on the video, you are giving the benefit of the doubt to a convicted killer, that the woman were attempting to get back up to fight back against a man with a weapon.

I honestly think that you live in a bubble. [/quote]

Uhm, they already kept fighting a man who hit them and even after being hit once with the fry scooper didn’t stop.

I mean, are you missing the fact that these women ATTACKED, jumped on the counter, jumped into a restricted area and then chased down a man to keep beating him?

You seem to think these women were so dainty this is beyond their ability…to get back up and hit someone.

Welcome to the ghetto…bro.

347

I think that MOST of us would be more comfortable living 500 years ago swinging a battle axe into the faces of our enemy (or even 100 years ago in the “wild wild west” with a six-gun LOL), but this is 2011. The “rule of law” prevails, and those laws were written by people who never grew up on the street or had to worry about getting jumped while AT WORK.

They expect a “reasonable standard” of behavior that is “civilized”. But you take a guy who’s mother was on crack, never met his daddy, grew up in the projects on government cheese, with a fifth grade reading level cuz he “didn’t get left behind”; a man who grew up around guns and violence and incest and abuse and they hold this man to the same standard as those with college degrees and born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

Then they expect this man who grew up SURVIVING, to behave in a “civilized way” in the heat of the moment… He is expected to have the intellectual strength (even though his intellect was abandoned by “the system” and left to atrophy) to override his survival instinct (the most powerful instinct next to reproduction) which has been relied upon, honed and developed from a young age and is basically the only reason he is alive. That’s an internal conflict that will not be won in most cases. Yet somehow, society expects him to win it?

I believe the RESULTS of our Justice/Educational/Socioeconomic system point to it’s fallibility…

Yes he hit them while they were down (and out of sight) after the initial attack was APPARENTLY neutralized. But they wouldn’t have BEEN down had they not slapped him, jumped his counter and cornered him at which time he fought back. Because he scanned a 50…

Fractured skull and broken arm. Not dead. I don’t have a problem with this outcome personally. The women in question were not my kin, so I really don’t give a shit. “If you’re gonna play pussy you’re gonna get fucked”, as my daddy used to say. In my day and in the folly of my youth, I’ve done worse over less because I felt at the time that the situation warranted it. I’d be willing to wager that MOST of us who grew up on the street have… But we didn’t get caught! (I got caught for armed robbery, not for every time in my life where I beat the shit out of someone)

The sad reality is that this man will be convicted. Again. For responding to a situation he didn’t ask for.

Gotta love “justice”.

I do believe the guy is gonna get convicted though.