EXACTLY What is Natural Anyways?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
22

[quote]Corkonian wrote:
To be honest does anyone REALLY care if someone is natural or not ???
[/quote]

Bodybuilders care because we want to know what can naturally be attained by hard work, diet and proper training programs. I remember when I was 14 and started lifting way back in 1990, I didn’t know Arnold and the guys in Flex or Muscle & Fitness did steroids( yeah I was a naive young buck back then). So I trained my ass off and gained 30 lbs very quickly, but I still didn’t look anything like the guys in the mags. Until one day my friends older brother said “Dude, all those guys take roids, you’ll never look like them without them it is impossible”. So I started slacking off with the weights for a few years, totally crushed.

It wasn’t till about 6 years ago that I got serious again( by discovering this site ,Westside, and 5x5 programs on the net) I went from 146-210 in that time. Due to my crappy arm genetics I will never look like a pro BB’er, but I will continue to try and lift the amounts of weights that they can. My point is this, It is very dissapointing to see these so called ‘naturals’ who are winning natural BB contests and have great physiques, but they built their early foundations by taking steriods

23

[quote]Rocky101 wrote:
Corkonian wrote:
To be honest does anyone REALLY care if someone is natural or not ???

Bodybuilders care because we want to know what can naturally be attained by hard work, diet and proper training programs. I remember when I was 14 and started lifting way back in 1990, I didn’t know Arnold and the guys in Flex or Muscle & Fitness did steroids( yeah I was a naive young buck back then). So I trained my ass off and gained 30 lbs very quickly, but I still didn’t look anything like the guys in the mags. Until one day my friends older brother said “Dude, all those guys take roids, you’ll never look like them without them it is impossible”. So I started slacking off with the weights for a few years, totally crushed.

It wasn’t till about 6 years ago that I got serious again( by discovering this site ,Westside, and 5x5 programs on the net) I went from 146-210 in that time. Due to my crappy arm genetics I will never look like a pro BB’er, but I will continue to try and lift the amounts of weights that they can. My point is this, It is very dissapointing to see these so called ‘naturals’ who are winning natural BB contests and have great physiques, but they built their early foundations by taking steriods

[/quote]

You sound bitter, and if you quit training because someone told you that you would never look like Arnold, a quitter is all you were. I am glad you didn’t maintain that mindset, but it isn’t anyone else’s place in the world to worry about your own perception of reality.

There are people who could look damn close to the way many of those guys did in the 70’s completely natural. Just because YOU can’t doesn’t mean a thing.

The difference is, there are people who work even harder when others tell them what they can’t do…and then there are people like you who listen as people tell them what they can’t do and quit working towards their goals, jaded at the world around them.

I always fell into the first category, and I am thankful for every person who told me I couldn’t do something. It made me work that much harder.

What anyone else does should be irrelevant to you. Your goal should be to become to the best YOU that you can be, not the best “somebody else”.

What Arnold does should be of no concern to you. I doubt you could look like Michael Lockett or Skip Lacour, both of which claim to be natural.

People like you are much more likely to claim they aren’t, however, instead of simply being motivated to try harder.

24

[quote]Professor X wrote:

You sound bitter, and if you quit training because someone told you that you would never look like Arnold, a quitter is all you were. I am glad you didn’t maintain that mindset, but it isn’t anyone else’s place in the world to worry about your own perception of reality.

There are people who could look damn close to the way many of those guys did in the 70’s completely natural. Just because YOU can’t doesn’t mean a thing.

The difference is, there are people who work even harder when others tell them what they can’t do…and then there are people like you who listen as people tell them what they can’t do and quit working towards their goals, jaded at the world around them.

I always fell into the first category, and I am thankful for every person who told me I couldn’t do something. It made me work that much harder.

What anyone else does should be irrelevant to you. Your goal should be to become to the best YOU that you can be, not the best “somebody else”.

What Arnold does should be of no concern to you. I doubt you could look like Michael Lockett or Skip Lacour, both of which claim to be natural.

People like you are much more likely to claim they aren’t, however, instead of simply being motivated to try harder.[/quote]

He said what i meant MUCH more eloquently.
Me know english unpossible.

25

The collective IQ of the forum just took a steeeeeeeeep drop.

[quote]tmowad wrote:
…what he has is not accessible to me, because I’m not going to put my body through such ridiculous risks (my thoughts on steroids may be unpopular here, but I still think they are unnecessary and unsafe).

I mean does the guy deserve less respect for injecting something ??

It doesn’t matter what he DESERVES – just what he GETS.

I think steriod users get less respect than non-steroid users.

Imagine people found out Ms America was really a guy with a really good plastic surgeon. Would she (he) still DESERVE the title? I say “hell yea, everyone thought she was a hottie, so who cares”, but everyone knows she (he) would be none of that respect.

Yes I am comparing steroids to a sex change. (You’re taking a tonne of male hormones in one case – female hormones with a bit of knife work in the other)

So ya lets get pissy at people who wanted to be the best they can be !

Do your best. Steroids are your choice, but know the consequences, physically AND socially.

Lets all join body for life !

Nobody’s stopping you. Go for it! ;)[/quote]

26

Are you adding value to this conversation? Trying to start a fight with “some guy on the Internet” is about as low as you can get. At least make a point in addition to being annoying. Have something to say, and THEN throw in an insult. You’ll sound a little bit smarter :wink:

OK, that said, seriously… steroid use is definitely a “personal philosophy” thing, so this thread will inherently have differing opinions. If my opinion hurts your feelings, well, I sincerely apologize to ya, bro. I know my analogy is actually pretty harsh and perhaps even seems like a subtle put down if you’re a steroid user (this was only intended to make a point, not make anyone cry) – but MY OPINION is that “direct hormone manipulation” is just plain unnatural. Whether you use it to look like a chick, or to get huge, its a very complicated issue – one I’d never agree to involve my body with, given the world’s current medical knowledge.

Its also my opinion that anyone who does make use of such techniques will be less respected, maybe not in the mainstream bodybuilding community, certainly in the “real world”.

[quote]UkpairehMombooto wrote:
The collective IQ of the forum just took a steeeeeeeeep drop.

tmowad wrote:
…what he has is not accessible to me, because I’m not going to put my body through such ridiculous risks (my thoughts on steroids may be unpopular here, but I still think they are unnecessary and unsafe).

I mean does the guy deserve less respect for injecting something ??

It doesn’t matter what he DESERVES – just what he GETS.

I think steriod users get less respect than non-steroid users.

Imagine people found out Ms America was really a guy with a really good plastic surgeon. Would she (he) still DESERVE the title? I say “hell yea, everyone thought she was a hottie, so who cares”, but everyone knows she (he) would be none of that respect.

Yes I am comparing steroids to a sex change. (You’re taking a tonne of male hormones in one case – female hormones with a bit of knife work in the other)

So ya lets get pissy at people who wanted to be the best they can be !

Do your best. Steroids are your choice, but know the consequences, physically AND socially.

Lets all join body for life !

Nobody’s stopping you. Go for it! :wink:

[/quote]

27

Who the hell knows what “natural” means… people put all kinds of “unnatural” stuff in their bodies these days, from protein shakes to 'roids to egg beaters. I’ve never tried steroids so I don’t really know how drastic the effects can be, but I don’t really care because I’m doing fine without 'em. Like the majority of people on this site, I’m not competing against anyone but myself.

28

[quote]tmowad wrote:

Its also my opinion that anyone who does make use of such techniques will be less respected, maybe not in the mainstream bodybuilding community, certainly in the “real world”.

[/quote]

I don’t even do steroid cycles, but if I did, the “real world” could kiss my ass.

EDIT: Changed steriod to steroid.

29

It’s amazing that some people think that steroids make the champions. Name a single IFBB Pro not using them and I call bullshit. How come they don’t all look the same if they all take steroids?

Fucking hard work in the gym, proper nutrition and rest builds a great physique, not merely injecting oneself with AAS.

30

if you take in more nutrition than your body requires to stay alive that is unnnatural! so who cares if someone does vitamin s.

31

You are a riot, dude. I remember a homeless tramp on Pennsylvania Avenue who looked at Donald Trump getting into his conveyance (after a flying visit to Bush with Arnold in tow) and shouted at him “I have NO respect for you, although you are powerful and shit. Take this as a gentle put down, though…because thats what all the rest of the homeless tramps think about the both of you”
And arnold and Trump chuckled and Arnold said “My poor waste of sperm, we don;t give a flying fuck about what a bunch of homeless tramps have to say about us”.

[quote]tmowad wrote:
Are you adding value to this conversation? Trying to start a fight with “some guy on the Internet” is about as low as you can get. At least make a point in addition to being annoying. Have something to say, and THEN throw in an insult. You’ll sound a little bit smarter :wink:

OK, that said, seriously… steroid use is definitely a “personal philosophy” thing, so this thread will inherently have differing opinions. If my opinion hurts your feelings, well, I sincerely apologize to ya, bro. I know my analogy is actually pretty harsh and perhaps even seems like a subtle put down if you’re a steroid user (this was only intended to make a point, not make anyone cry) – but MY OPINION is that “direct hormone manipulation” is just plain unnatural. Whether you use it to look like a chick, or to get huge, its a very complicated issue – one I’d never agree to involve my body with, given the world’s current medical knowledge.

Its also my opinion that anyone who does make use of such techniques will be less respected, maybe not in the mainstream bodybuilding community, certainly in the “real world”.

UkpairehMombooto wrote:
The collective IQ of the forum just took a steeeeeeeeep drop.

tmowad wrote:
…what he has is not accessible to me, because I’m not going to put my body through such ridiculous risks (my thoughts on steroids may be unpopular here, but I still think they are unnecessary and unsafe).

I mean does the guy deserve less respect for injecting something ??

It doesn’t matter what he DESERVES – just what he GETS.

I think steriod users get less respect than non-steroid users.

Imagine people found out Ms America was really a guy with a really good plastic surgeon. Would she (he) still DESERVE the title? I say “hell yea, everyone thought she was a hottie, so who cares”, but everyone knows she (he) would be none of that respect.

Yes I am comparing steroids to a sex change. (You’re taking a tonne of male hormones in one case – female hormones with a bit of knife work in the other)

So ya lets get pissy at people who wanted to be the best they can be !

Do your best. Steroids are your choice, but know the consequences, physically AND socially.

Lets all join body for life !

Nobody’s stopping you. Go for it! :wink:

[/quote]

32

[quote]Rat Poison wrote:
if you take in more nutrition than your body requires to stay alive that is unnnatural! so who cares if someone does vitamin s. [/quote]

Guys stop with this stuff we all know that when someone says natural they are talking about not useing steroids and nothing else I do not get why you would post this do you really think anyone is useing the world natural to mean anything other than this?

33

[quote]dylan10507 wrote:
Rat Poison wrote:
if you take in more nutrition than your body requires to stay alive that is unnnatural! so who cares if someone does vitamin s.

Guys stop with this stuff we all know that when someone says natural they are talking about not useing steroids and nothing else I do not get why you would post this do you really think anyone is useing the world natural to mean anything other than this?[/quote]

nah i just like to bust balls

34

[quote]monteitis wrote:
Like the majority of people on this site, I’m not competing against anyone but myself.[/quote]

That’s it right there.

35

The line between “natural” and “enhanced” is rather vague and very subjective, in my opinion.

A purist who takes after John Grimek et al. might argue that any supplementation above and beyond a home-made shake of heavy cream and honey would constitute being “unnatural”.

A bodybuilder of the 80’s might associate something as benign as DHEA supplementation as unnatural. After all, it was classified as a steroid at that point, if I remember correctly.

Nowadays we are bombarded with supplement choices. What’s “natural” and what isn’t, again, is subjective. Is taking a 10g scoop of creatine natural? You’d have to eat several kilograms of meat to get an equivalent amount. That 2.5g of DHA you get with Flameout is…what?..the equivalent of about 500 compressed sardines and/or anchovies? Is that natural? Many would argue “yes!” (myself included) because these compounds exist in nature.

Taking it up a notch is that wacky vine Tribulus Terrestris. This is also a naturally occuring substance that we superconcentrate into tablet form and consume. However, this one manipulates our endocrine system a bit to allow more free testosterone. Are we still in “natural” territory?

Then come the pro-hormones. Nothing natural about these babies, although some do exist in minute quantities in nature. These are manufactured by biochemists who look at actual steroids and ask themselves “how do I toy around with this molecule in order to make it both legal and effective?”. MAG-10 fell into this category. Here we have hormonal manipulation AND artificiality. Natural?

After this of course we have the obvious. The grand-daddy of “supplements”, anabolic steroids. Even when we venture into this territory, users sometimes separate into different groups. One could argue that a basic testosterone ester is more natural than Trenbolone-cis-4-phenyldianapropylblahblahblah because it more or less already exists in the human body.

Looking at the above spectrum, it’s really up to you where you put yourself and whether you consider yourself natural or not. I do think there is a lot of elitism in bodybuilding from the so-called “natural” crowd towards the “enhanced” crowd. One might argue that the “enhanced” simply have opted to take the most effective supplements available, whether they are socially-acceptable/legal or not.

And a lot of the distinction between natural and unnatural DOES boil down to social acceptability and legality, IMO. Telling someone that you bought dianabol out of a Bulgarian guy’s 1985 Yugo’s trunk isn’t very socially acceptable. Telling that same person you ordered a supplement from Biotest is.

Say Biotest were to create a magical supplement that was, in fact, a full-blown steroid that for some reason passed FDA approval, and was freely available in a stylish bottle that you could purchase at any GNC. Would you be “natural” if you used it?

36

Natural is so subjective.

I agree with moteitis, I’m competing against myself. It is I/ME who I have to answer to at the end of the day. I respect myself and whether or not someone is ‘natural’ is far from important to ME. All it does is distract me from building a better ME.

37

[quote]Professor X wrote:
What Arnold does should be of no concern to you. I doubt you could look like Michael Lockett or Skip Lacour, both of which claim to be natural.[/quote]

Do you think they ARE… natural?

38

[quote]wirewound wrote:
monteitis wrote:
Like the majority of people on this site, I’m not competing against anyone but myself.

That’s it right there.[/quote]

Pff. I’m competing with whoever is bigger and stronger than me. Whatever it takes (taking safety in consideration of course).

In general, I m somewhat disturbed with the somewhat anti-steroid sentiment vibe I’m picking up on this board though. So the 'roided up guy is bigger than you. Why do you really care? That’s an open question btw.

My theory is that the people taking the moral high ground are either uneducated morons, or have some deep seated inadequacy issues.

39

Whoever is “against” steroids, hope one day you dont suffer from low test :slight_smile:
As your “beliefs” would prevernt you taking any “roids” eh… though i think their beliefs would differ soon enough.

40

[quote]Corkonian wrote:
Whoever is “against” steroids, hope one day you dont suffer from low test :slight_smile:
As your “beliefs” would prevernt you taking any “roids” eh… though i think their beliefs would differ soon enough.[/quote]

Dude, suffering from low test is a medical issue, nothing to do with taking test in order to get bigger muscle. You can be against taking steroids just for leisure and in the other hand thinking it’s perfectly OK taking them for therapeutic purpose…