I wanna know what ALL of my fellow T-Freaks are taking/eating for antioxidant support. Over the years I’ve been bitten by the overtraining bug quite a few times. Rather than adding more scheduled off-time, I want to wage all-out war on oxidation! I wanna hit that shit from ALL angles! Get fucking aggressive with my nutritional recovery strategem. Seek-&-Destroy! If your with me let me know what-cha-got.
-Me-
-Multi, Vit C(500x2), Vit E(400), Green Tea x2, Surge+Creatine w/wo
OK I will keep it to just the anti ox’s that I take daily as my total list of vits and such can get very lengthy. LOL
Multi ( 2 a day), Vit C 500mg (6 a day), vit e (1000 a day), R-ALA 100mg (3 a day) Green tea ( atleast 2 quarts a day, along with maybe a cap or two of extract and possibly some l-theanine for sleep), Um you said it so I will as well Surge ( this I make with Green tea and my Power Drive as well, and take my Vit E and 1 of the Vit C pre workout with my first drink of Surge),lots of berries and fruit.
I think that is it as far as things taken/eatin for it’s antioxidant characteristics. LOL
Hope that helps,
Phill
Hi,
My thesis at university entitled "Vitamins C and E supplementation reduces eccentric muscle damage in human volunteers? , which was presented at the International Conference on Biochemistry of Exercise, Maastricht, The Netherlands, July 2003, deals with what you are referring to.
Firstly, i would like to say that although antioxidants may well indeed enhance the recovery process, although our results did not show them playing a direct role in what was happening in the days post exercise, the effects they are likely to have may be relatively small, in other words dont feel that you cant overtrain while on antioxidants because i assure you, you can.
In our study we supplemented our subjects with 1200 IU vitamin E per day for 30 days, and 500 mg vitamin C per day. Remember, it takes a couple of weeks for vitamin E to build up in the muscle tissue, so my recommendation would be to start supplementing with this a couple of week BEFORE you up the intensity.(more about that later)
Our results differed form other studies , as it showed that the vitmains had a protective effect DURING the exercise bout itself. Free radicals have been implicated as a possible causitive factor in fatigue. Numerous studies have shown that antioxidant supplementation does not enhance exercise performance. Our protocol, however, was purely eccentric in nature (30 sets of 10 maximum voluntary eccentric contractions), and we feel that other studies that have used different exercise modalities may have masked their effect as a result of other factors playinjg a more dominant role in fatigue during these modalities.
I’m not going to go on and on, if you have any questions feel free to ask, but ,in my opinion, if you were going to start a very intense cycle of training (one that involves alot of eccentric work) then antioxidnats may indeed play a role, but be careful as the benefits you are likely to see will be subtle and they are not the holy grail in regards a cure for overtraining.
For the past 3 years I have been trying to find the combination you are looking for…and here is what I personally find to be the best Antioxidant “stack”:
Ambrotose AO (by Mannatech)
Kyolic Formula #103
Pot of Green Tea Daily (Splenda/Ice does wonders if your not a big fan)
Also do not underestimate your need for proper hydration - drink water frequently troughout the day.
Hope that helps…in case you need to know HOW well this combo works I have been living in Bangalore India for the past 6 months and have been able to hit my goal of 100 workouts in that timeframe and not get sick
Phill,
You say you are takng 6x500mg a day, thats 3g a day, in my opinion way too much. Remember, studies have shown that vitamin C in large doses can have a PRO oxidative effect, ie make the damage worse
Powerdrive
Multivitamin (NOW foods)
Green Tea
Blueberries
Alcar
In regards to vitamin C:
I agree that there can be a damaging effect when too much is ingested. The question is just how much as this will vary greatly with each individuals lifestyle (along with several other factors).
Multi (high strength time released) containing amongst others:150mg vit E, 39mg vit C,
1000mg vit C also timed release.
I also drink black tea- does this count?
Old Dax
Well it is my understanding that taking it in smaller doses (500mg at a time) is fine, but taking anything in excess of 1g ,in one go, may stimulate a pro oxidative effect)
Awsome! I wanted new ideas and I got some.
-Body IQ, what’s Alcar, if it’s a product whats in it?
-Ryba, whats in Ambrotose AO? and Kyolic formula #103?
-Phil, as usual, mucho props on response
So, here’s what I plan on adding/modifying.
-Pop another 400iu Vit E cap.
-Make some green tea in advance and put in fridge to cool so that I can sip throughout day, in addition to my two traditional green tea’s/day.
-Pop an aditional Vit C pre/wo
-Add 200-300 mg’s of R-ala/day. I’m STILL trying to get a thread going on this stuff, so if you have knowledge on this subject, go there and drop it!!
-Possibly add some berries although I like to only eat one sev. of fruit/day, and I like to stick to pinnapple (digestive aids), or apples (as per LL’s recommendations).
The dose of vitamin C that Phil is taking is appropriate and probably a good starting dose for the average adult person on this board (notice he is taking it in 6 divided doses).
Has anyone investigated the issue of too much vitamin c acting as a pro-oxidant or is everyone just quoting…I think it is JMB? He is supurb at what he does, but not infallible. I’ve posted some thoughts on this previously. Don’t remember the thread title, but I think it was Zeb and I going back and forth over this.
Scott
read high performance cycling…athletes responded better with one gram then with 500 mg. Still you need blood work to get a better gage, and even that is not 100%.
Pat, what do you think of blood work to test anti-oxidant status?
I love blueberries…
Go to www.comparativeguide.com to see over 1000 antioxidants being compared.
Trust that helps!!
Kurnia
Pat Butler, what are your thoughts as to why the literature on this topic often yields equivocal, albeit largely negative results?
What was your contraction protocol?
Did you notice any force decrements during the trial with Vit E supplementation?
Cheers
I take vitamen C, Chelated zinc, and two products from GNLD the Carotenoid complex and the flavenoid complex.
Try the Carotenoid Complex by GNLD this is an excellent product - contains Carrot extract, red bell pepper extract, spinach extract, apricot concentrate, strawberry concentrate, peach concentrate total beta carotene 1300mcg, Alpha Carotene 550mcg, lycopene 340mcg, Lutein/Zeaxanthin 130mcg, D-alpha tocopherol 6iu per capsule, I take between three and six per day (more if I’m getting a cold it really helps me beet these away) go to www.carotenoidcomplex.com/science/science7.html for reference and published studies.
The second product that I use also from GNLD is their flavanoid complex which contains water soluble extract from Cranberry,kale,green tea, beet, mixed berry, red and black grape, orange, lemon, grapefruit. I take two or three tabs a day with my vitamin C and zinc. Try this site www.gnld.com/store/Product.aspx? STORE_ID=7&CATEGORY_ ID=1304&NAV_CATEGORY_ ID=1324&PRODUCT_ID=10417#.
R-ala and Glutathione [sp?] are king
ScottL & Pete460 :I agree that people on this forum can benefit from higher levels of vitamin C than the average person, (3g still seems a little excessive to me, but you’re right in saying everyone is different and if you feel a benefit then fair enough, BUT there are studies that have shown a pro oxidative effect, for example Childs et al 2001 Sep 15,31(6) 745-53 (its in Pubmed), but the major concern would appear to be if you take it at a time when you are suffering from eccentric muscle damage. So for someone to take vitamin C 5 or 6 times a day would mean that some of these would surely come in the post exercise period. BUT, i guess it depends on your training protocol (and how much eccentric muscle damage you produce), maybe there is a case for varying intake with respect to training cycles. What do you think?
David Barr: You can check out our abstract on Pubmed : Shafat A, Butler P, Jensen RL, Donnelly AE. Effects of dietary supplementation with vitamins C and E on muscle function during and after eccentric contractions in humans
Eur J Appl Physiol. 2004 Aug 7
(link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez
/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract
&list_uids=15309547)
The main finding of our study was that there is a potential protective effect to the muscle provided by antioxidants during eccentric exercise.
I believe that varying results have occurred in the studies due to
- Different supplementation strategies - antioxidants work best in combination, and thoses like vitamin E need to be taken for a couple of weeks before they can have an effect
- Different exercise protocols - maybe the effects of the antioxidants were masked by other factors
Although our study did not show a benefit of faster recovery when taking vitamins post exercise, i feel that there is a legitimate case for thier involvement ,
So in my opinion,
- Supplement with a combination of antioxidants
- When using vitamin C spread it out over the day (but avoid it immediately after a session involving alot of eccentric damage)
- Take into account that everyone is different so dont be afraid to try different combinations to find what works best for you
Pat,
“The main finding of our study was that there is a potential protective effect to the muscle provided by antioxidants during eccentric exercise.”
That would not surprise me. And one can personally choose to avoid vitamin c for a number of hours before training (I would not given my priorities, but it might be reasonable depending on your priorities).
The other issue of the pro-oxidant effects of vitamin c in larger doses is another matter. I’m pressed for time now but here are some guesses I had last time this came up. If I have time in a day or two I’ll try to look up the references you mention.
This is from a prior post of mine on a thread called Anti-Aging Supplements (I only take and recommend one of the non-acidic forms of vitamin c e.g. mineral ascorbates, NOT ascorbic acid):
-
Vitamin C is present in the body as an unoxidized/oxidized pair. When vitamin c performs its duty as an antioxidant, it becomes oxidized. However in the body there is a system of other antioxidants to recycle it back to the unoxidized form ready to be used as an antioxidant again. I wonder if the studies you are talking about did not take this into account (this could be if they were in vitro, or if in vivo but without adequate i.e. supplemental other antioxidants to help recycle the vitamin C).
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Don’t know about the particular studies you have in mind but many studies done in vitro show things different than observed in vivo e.g. chromium picolinate becomes mutagenic and quercetin becomes carcinogenic.
…
- Stress increases the need for vitamin C. I doubt the population in the studies you are talking about was as active as many on the forum. Also, this does not prove anything, but I can tell you that bowel tolerance for vitamin c goes way up when people get sick. If AT THE FIRST HINT OF GETTING ILL you take 1000 mg/hour (no misprint and please stick to the non-acid form) of vitamin c you will likely find that either you never get ill, or your illness will be very mild and run a much faster course. If you try this cut back if you get gas or loose stools and taper slowly from this dose as you start to get better (if you taper too fast you can rebound and get sick again). This is a great trick and has saved myself and others I know tons of sick time.
so I read about the antioxidant properties of clove oil. Coming in with an ORAC score of 10 million, I wonder if others have and how they have used clove oil for this powerful property…