Ethics and Steroids

Off Topic
21

[quote]Professor X wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
I don’t think we can have a meaningful discussion unless you better define the parameters of your premise. A discussion about steroids in a competitive setting where the presumption is that they are against the rules can only lead to the reasonable conclusion that it is cheating. I think you should better define your question / premise if you want a meaningful dialogue.

I doubt he can better define it because speaking in those terms is the same method the media uses. It is a great way to stifle any truly progressive or scientific discussion due to immediately trying to label it “cheating” or simply “bad”…as if HRT hasn’t helped men the world over.

You have a society that basically praises the use of Viagra but turns around and throws tomatoes at men over the age of 35-40 who would like to still feel like they did in their 20’s.[/quote]

If women can get tanked on their hormones then men should be allowed the same. The difference is that there are greater deleterious health issues with the pill and women than there are steroids and men.

As far as sports go - if there is a rule against them then you are not necessarily always “cheating” by taking them. You are just breaking the rules.

22

Sorry for the double-post, but my last post hasn’t shown up yet.

Horse brings up a good argument:
At what point is it considered “cheating”?

I use creatine like it’s going out of style; is that “cheating”? Am I giving myself an unfair advantage?
I typically consume +/- 300g of protein a day, does that give me an “unfair advantage” over those who do not do the same?

Just some food for thought,
-Josh

23

[quote]horsepuss wrote:
If it is banned and you use it against people who arent using and youre winning its cheating, if youre using and losing its not cheating.

My beef with steroids being illegal is whats the difference between steroids and creatine, or Surge or Anaconda.Besides the obvious of course.But really what the fuck is the difference, at the end of the day im using creatine and beta-alanine and Surge and protien to get bigger and stronger.That is the same reason people use AAS, AAS just works better and faster.[/quote]

It’s kind of like saying whats the difference between Cocaine and whiskey. One is illegal and the other isn’t, but both will get you high. Steroids on the other hand are far more dangerous than creatine. Steroids were given a bad rap because of those who have abused them. I don’t agree with legalizing steroids because there are too many out there that would do just that…Abuse them! As far as cheating is concerned. One taking Steroids is only a cheat if He or she acts dishonestly, deceives, or defrauds someone else. Otherwise, start pinning and enjoy your gains. Just be safe and do your research!

24

[quote]AzCats wrote:
horsepuss wrote:
If it is banned and you use it against people who arent using and youre winning its cheating, if youre using and losing its not cheating.

My beef with steroids being illegal is whats the difference between steroids and creatine, or Surge or Anaconda.Besides the obvious of course.But really what the fuck is the difference, at the end of the day im using creatine and beta-alanine and Surge and protien to get bigger and stronger.That is the same reason people use AAS, AAS just works better and faster.

It’s kind of like saying whats the difference between Cocaine and whiskey. One is illegal and the other isn’t, but both will get you high. Steroids on the other hand are far more dangerous than creatine. Steroids were given a bad rap because of those who have abused them. I don’t agree with legalizing steroids because there are too many out there that would do just that…Abuse them! [/quote]

Your post makes no sense.

In fact, anyone anywhere who acts like legalization of a substance or drug equals no regulation seems to be living outside of reality.

If they were “legal” and not hunted down like they are currently, doctors could return to being the ones in control of their use…instead of having things like they are where doctors are vilified and tracked down if they prescribe them to patients at will.

If people were truly concerned about health, they would eradicate the black market but not continuing to make these and some other drugs illegal.

This country could deal with quite a bit of debt by the simple act of legalizing marijuana and taxing it…yet people are dumb enough to let their self righteousness keep that from happening.

25

[quote]AzCats wrote:

It’s kind of like saying whats the difference between Cocaine and whiskey. One is illegal and the other isn’t, but both will get you high. Steroids on the other hand are far more dangerous than creatine. Steroids were given a bad rap because of those who have abused them. I don’t agree with legalizing steroids because there are too many out there that would do just that…Abuse them! [/quote]

Perhaps then, we should return to prohibition and outlaw alcohol because there are clearly quite a few who abuse that. What about cigarettes? They have been amply demonstrated to have a bad affect and yet many continue to use them. Regardless of the substance, there are those who will abuse it. I find it paternalistic and fueled by sensational media claims to pick and choose what we are allowed exposure to and what we aren’t.

26

[quote]Professor X wrote:
AzCats wrote:
horsepuss wrote:
If it is banned and you use it against people who arent using and youre winning its cheating, if youre using and losing its not cheating.

My beef with steroids being illegal is whats the difference between steroids and creatine, or Surge or Anaconda.Besides the obvious of course.But really what the fuck is the difference, at the end of the day im using creatine and beta-alanine and Surge and protien to get bigger and stronger.That is the same reason people use AAS, AAS just works better and faster.

It’s kind of like saying whats the difference between Cocaine and whiskey. One is illegal and the other isn’t, but both will get you high. Steroids on the other hand are far more dangerous than creatine. Steroids were given a bad rap because of those who have abused them. I don’t agree with legalizing steroids because there are too many out there that would do just that…Abuse them!

[b]Your post makes no sense.

In fact, anyone anywhere who acts like legalization of a substance or drug equals no regulation seems to be living outside of reality.

If they were “legal” and not hunted down like they are currently, doctors could return to being the ones in control of their use…instead of having things like they are where doctors are vilified and tracked down if they prescribe them to patients at will.

If people were truly concerned about health, they would eradicate the black market but not continuing to make these and some other drugs illegal.

This country could deal with quite a bit of debt by the simple act of legalizing marijuana and taxing it…yet people are dumb enough to let their self righteousness keep that from happening.[/b][/quote]

Preach it! Never have truer words been spoken.

27

[quote]AzCats wrote:
horsepuss wrote:
If it is banned and you use it against people who arent using and youre winning its cheating, if youre using and losing its not cheating.

My beef with steroids being illegal is whats the difference between steroids and creatine, or Surge or Anaconda.Besides the obvious of course.But really what the fuck is the difference, at the end of the day im using creatine and beta-alanine and Surge and protien to get bigger and stronger.That is the same reason people use AAS, AAS just works better and faster.

It’s kind of like saying whats the difference between Cocaine and whiskey. One is illegal and the other isn’t, but both will get you high. Steroids on the other hand are far more dangerous than creatine. Steroids were given a bad rap because of those who have abused them. I don’t agree with legalizing steroids because there are too many out there that would do just that…Abuse them! As far as cheating is concerned. One taking Steroids is only a cheat if He or she acts dishonestly, deceives, or defrauds someone else. Otherwise, start pinning and enjoy your gains. Just be safe and do your research![/quote]

So?

28

If steroids can make you better at your job (firefighter, cop, soldier, etc) is it not your duty to become better?

29

[quote]ouroboro_s wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
DOHCrazy wrote:
I’m not a Philosopher, but steroids are only cheating if used in competition against other people who aren’t using, or in a league where the rules state they are outlawed. (In this instance, them being illegal by law does not make personal use cheating.)

As far as any moral reasons, if one doesn’t believe in god and isn’t competing against tested athletes, then there is no moral reason not to use. Though there is no moral reason, some may choose to stay natural for health, economical, or situational reasons.

Even if one does believe in God, it would not be morally wrong to use steroids unless (like you said) one is competing in a sport which prohibits them.

I don’t know much about religion, but I don’t think anything in the bible stating thou shall not use steroids. If there is, that’d be some damn fine forsight.

I think it comes up in Leviticus. In addition, the four horseman of the apocalypse are totally juicing.[/quote]

halotestin and cheque drops

30

[quote]itsthenickman wrote:
If steroids can make you better at your job (firefighter, cop, soldier, etc) is it not your duty to become better?[/quote]

Should they also take Meth just before they know they have to run to a fire, or chase a criminal?

31

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
When it comes to athletics, a truly “level playing field” is little more than a fantasy. Rules attempt to ensure that all people are equally able, but the fact of the matter is that not all people are equally able. There was a thread on here a while back where there was discussion of creating rules relating to an individual’s test levels and creating a mandatory ceiling on certain hormonal aspects that affect performance, whether naturally occurring or otherwise.

It is arguable that any sort of preparation, be it through training, nutrition, or pharmaceuticals, is a means of gaining an “unnatural advantage”. This can be further extended to innate abilities and physiological advantages that certain individuals have over others.

Because of this, it seems to me that the fairest thing possible is to allow athletes to do whatever they wish in order to win. Those who don’t wish to push the envelope to the same degree as their competition don’t want to win as badly as their competition. Simple as that.[/quote]

This is so full of nonsensical generalizations and a misunderstanding of competing at the top level it’s not even worthy of debate.

This is the kind of response you get, among others, when you create a thread and drop a grenade like “steroids” - providing no parameters for discussion, and then you run for cover and watch everyone attempt to interpret what the heck you wanted to discuss. Seriously, no offense to you Stronghold.

32

[quote]horsepuss wrote:
If it is banned and you use it against people who arent using and youre winning its cheating, if youre using and losing its not cheating.
[/quote]

I know of a local guy who competed three times in a local BB comp and won all three times. The first two times he was juicing, and the third he wasn’t. It’s unclear if anyone else in the competition was using at any of them. To my knowledge they were untested competitions. Was he cheating…?
Were the people who lost to him when he was not using cheating…?

Aside from that, I thought Greg Valentino(of all people) had some very good points in the Bigger, Faster, Stronger documentary by Chris Bell. The educational system is falling to shit, kids in particular are being bombarded 24/7 with mindless crap on the tv and X-Box. Individual thinking is starting to become discouraged. Hardly any kids take anytime to even read a book anymore. Games like GTA(which parents have no problem letting their kids play when they are clearly marked only for those 18+) let kids play a character that has sex with a hooker before killing her and taking her money.
This goes on every day but if somebody is found to be using steroids they might as well be locked up with the key thrown away…

33

My stance on this is this:

  • Steroids are not some magic pill you take and are instantly granted world class level strength/size w/e, you still have to put in the work and aas gives you that small advantage of a jump. For example you wont go from being an average amateur in a sport to pro level with aas use however you will go from say #5 to #3. Where that little nudge from 5 to 3 counts is world class performance like olympics and there I say either let them all use or do much stricter testing (the testing now is a huge joke, the campaign they had at the last olympics saying its the most drug tested was a huge joke as well).

  • At lower levels of competition I don’t really care about that little nudge. If I am competing against a person that uses I can honestly say that it doesn’t bother me as cheesy as it sounds but If I put in by best work leading up to the competition and got new bests then I am happy.

  • My own personal choice is that I would never use in a competition setting but thats my choice and I wouldn’t hold it against someone who was using.

  • In a non-competition setting…well honestly who cares?

34

[quote]Professor X wrote:
AzCats wrote:
horsepuss wrote:
If it is banned and you use it against people who arent using and youre winning its cheating, if youre using and losing its not cheating.

My beef with steroids being illegal is whats the difference between steroids and creatine, or Surge or Anaconda.Besides the obvious of course.But really what the fuck is the difference, at the end of the day im using creatine and beta-alanine and Surge and protien to get bigger and stronger.That is the same reason people use AAS, AAS just works better and faster.

It’s kind of like saying whats the difference between Cocaine and whiskey. One is illegal and the other isn’t, but both will get you high. Steroids on the other hand are far more dangerous than creatine. Steroids were given a bad rap because of those who have abused them. I don’t agree with legalizing steroids because there are too many out there that would do just that…Abuse them!

Your post makes no sense.

In fact, anyone anywhere who acts like legalization of a substance or drug equals no regulation seems to be living outside of reality.

If they were “legal” and not hunted down like they are currently, doctors could return to being the ones in control of their use…instead of having things like they are where doctors are vilified and tracked down if they prescribe them to patients at will.

If people were truly concerned about health, they would eradicate the black market but not continuing to make these and some other drugs illegal.

This country could deal with quite a bit of debt by the simple act of legalizing marijuana and taxing it…yet people are dumb enough to let their self righteousness keep that from happening.[/quote]

I don’t disagree with your post, but plenty of prescription drugs get abused as well.

35

[quote]Professor X wrote:
AzCats wrote:
horsepuss wrote:
If it is banned and you use it against people who arent using and youre winning its cheating, if youre using and losing its not cheating.

My beef with steroids being illegal is whats the difference between steroids and creatine, or Surge or Anaconda.Besides the obvious of course.But really what the fuck is the difference, at the end of the day im using creatine and beta-alanine and Surge and protien to get bigger and stronger.That is the same reason people use AAS, AAS just works better and faster.

It’s kind of like saying whats the difference between Cocaine and whiskey. One is illegal and the other isn’t, but both will get you high. Steroids on the other hand are far more dangerous than creatine. Steroids were given a bad rap because of those who have abused them. I don’t agree with legalizing steroids because there are too many out there that would do just that…Abuse them!

Your post makes no sense.

In fact, anyone anywhere who acts like legalization of a substance or drug equals no regulation seems to be living outside of reality.

If they were “legal” and not hunted down like they are currently, doctors could return to being the ones in control of their use…instead of having things like they are where doctors are vilified and tracked down if they prescribe them to patients at will.

If people were truly concerned about health, they would eradicate the black market but not continuing to make these and some other drugs illegal.

This country could deal with quite a bit of debt by the simple act of legalizing marijuana and taxing it…yet people are dumb enough to let their self righteousness keep that from happening.[/quote]

I understand your point X, but if Steroids were legal there would have to be some High levels of regulation. What types of regulation would keep any teenage kid from walking into a Wallgreens and pulling 3 vials of Deca or test E off the shelf? Age limit? We all know that doesn’t work.

I am all for legalizing marijuana, but marijuana never killed anyone either. I live here in Mexico now after spending 30yrs in the states and it’s much easier to see your point being here. I can and have walked into any Farmacia and said “I will take 10 of those loaded Sustanon 250’s” without any prescription or questions. I’m not sure exactly what it is that makes the USA so much different than down here. Education, Media?

I have been to 5 different gyms here in the small town I live in and not one person I have trained with or talked to takes steroids or really even knows anything about them. I saw and knew many that took the juice in the states, It was everywhere. So I do see your point that making them legal would put a stop to certain crimes and hunting down those that prescribe for whatever reason. It’s legal here without a script and knowbody wants it and illegal in the USA and many other countries and people want it. It’s really hard to say what would happen if they were legalized there until they actually are, but i don’t think that’s gonna happen anytime soon with the bad rap they get from the media making steroids out to be this BAD BAD drug. Just curious what types of regulations that could prevent anyone from walking into any tienda and buying them OTC if they were legalized?

36

Staying natural is the tough way, it’s the true warrior’s path. That is of course my personal opinion. I do train for strength body and mind, but not to show them off to the world, but to test myself, to see how far can I go. And I don’t give a hot damn what a person is like outside the gym, as long his vision about this is the same as mine. That’s what true powerlifting and bodybuilding is all about to me. We are the Iron Brotherhood, the Iron Warriors and we recognize each other for that simple reason - how far can we go to achieve greatness in our own minds, because as time passes one understands that there is only one person whose opinion matters, only one person whose approval matters - that is you. There is no real world, only the one in your mind. There is no society, only the one in the world in your mind. That my brothers is what connect us and that is why respect each other - we get the same feeling when getting underneath the bar. This post got cheesy enough, but I do thing to go on with a little something I made up for this:

(excuse my english in advance, Im bulgarian)

~Demon

Tensed tendors screaming,
joints scratching, hands bleeding…

…In the gym, my iron nest,
tireless heart beating in my chest…

…Another workout, another battle with my demon,
hot sweat and tears, fighting him for so many years…

…Broken reflection in the crannied mirror,
blugging veins, cold and rainy weather

…Still fighting him, unbreakable will I got,
Who will give up, the battle just won’t stop…

…Hands relaxing, the demon breathing in my neck
is leaving, on my feet I get back…

…He is slowly giving up, defeated for now,
staring in the eyes, untill the next round…

…The ice of daily hatered is melting,
the water running on my face is cleansing…

…And my demon? He will be waiting in tomorrow’s faceoff,
To beat him? Yeah, for that I can only dream of.

And to wrap up all the bullshit I just said I will quote Dave Tate:
Consider yourself lucky if you know even a small handful of people. But all you really need is one: you.

p.s. Yes, I am a loner IRL, but don’t get me wrong, the point is not to be away from the world and everything in it, but to know what really matters in this sport.
I would say “no” to steroids, but hell, by all means, juice all you want. I’m not judge or jury, it’s me. I may be wrong.

37

I think steroids should be allowed and more accessible to people that need the drug. But with a Dr who knows about how to use these drugs safely and effectively. That is also willing to work with the patient to keep them on a safe level. These are powerful substances and need to be used with caution. Otherwise it gives the media something to negatively harp about.

Should steroids be used in sports? Only if the tested levels of hormone are in a normal range and there is a medical need for it. Of course they should be completely supervised by a Dr.

If someone wanted to take higher then normal doses of anabolics to produce the muscle growth effect. Then they should not allowed to participate in a sport that bans this type of use.

Strict hormone profile testing should be used on all athletes regardless. Then if something is out of wack they just don’t compete until Dr gets them under control.

38

[quote]ouroboro_s wrote:
AzCats wrote:

It’s kind of like saying whats the difference between Cocaine and whiskey. One is illegal and the other isn’t, but both will get you high. Steroids on the other hand are far more dangerous than creatine. Steroids were given a bad rap because of those who have abused them. I don’t agree with legalizing steroids because there are too many out there that would do just that…Abuse them!

Perhaps then, we should return to prohibition and outlaw alcohol because there are clearly quite a few who abuse that. What about cigarettes? They have been amply demonstrated to have a bad affect and yet many continue to use them. Regardless of the substance, there are those who will abuse it. I find it paternalistic and fueled by sensational media claims to pick and choose what we are allowed exposure to and what we aren’t.[/quote]

I agree with you completely and I hope they never do go back to Prohibition. I just think if you legalize steroids you would see a much higher death rate and abuse because of it’s AVAILABILTY to those that are not educated enough before taking them. That goes back to the point X was making about regulation. It’s kind of a catch 22 situation that if you legalize them = higher death rate and abuse or make them illegal as they are now and see more crime rate. I’m kind of in the middle of this one, but still tend to lean more towards keeping them illegal and out of the hands of the uneducated. Most are going to get them anyways whether they are illegal or not.

39

[quote]Typhoon wrote:
My stance on this is this:

  • Steroids are not some magic pill you take and are instantly granted world class level strength/size w/e, you still have to put in the work and aas gives you that small advantage of a jump. For example you wont go from being an average amateur in a sport to pro level with aas use however you will go from say #5 to #3. Where that little nudge from 5 to 3 counts is world class performance like olympics and there I say either let them all use or do much stricter testing (the testing now is a huge joke, the campaign they had at the last olympics saying its the most drug tested was a huge joke as well).

  • At lower levels of competition I don’t really care about that little nudge. If I am competing against a person that uses I can honestly say that it doesn’t bother me as cheesy as it sounds but If I put in by best work leading up to the competition and got new bests then I am happy.

  • My own personal choice is that I would never use in a competition setting but thats my choice and I wouldn’t hold it against someone who was using.

  • In a non-competition setting…well honestly who cares? [/quote]

I concur to that! You still have to work hard whether your on or not. They just give you that edge that a natural does not have. Which is the reason for this debate.

40

[quote]AzCats wrote:

I understand your point X, but if Steroids were legal there would have to be some High levels of regulation. What types of regulation would keep any teenage kid from walking into a Wallgreens and pulling 3 vials of Deca or test E off the shelf? Age limit? We all know that doesn’t work. [/quote]

While people abuse prescription drugs everyday, the regulations in place seem to be very well accepted and fine by the general public…so why the major concern when it comes to steroids? I prescribe narcotics almost everyday and no one is complaining about kids getting Tylenol III so easily that it should be banned.

[quote]

I am all for legalizing marijuana, but marijuana never killed anyone either. I live here in Mexico now after spending 30yrs in the states and it’s much easier to see your point being here. I can and have walked into any Farmacia and said “I will take 10 of those loaded Sustanon 250’s” without any prescription or questions. I’m not sure exactly what it is that makes the USA so much different than down here. Education, Media? [/quote]

Right now, some underground lab is probably making any steroids being taken by the average underaged kid…yet in the eyes of the country, this is somehow better than having that same kid have to see a doctor?

The blackmarket exists because drugs are illegal. Making drugs illegal does NOT stop the use of them. If anything, it simply makes them less sterile and more harmful as a result. That means those who cry that many of these drugs should remain as they currently are is someone either very clueless…or so self righteous that they think by protesting something, this bypasses the damage done as a result of the protest.

Alcohol prohibition did NOT work. It created an entire illegal franchise in mobs and a growing black market. Why do people think any different about other drugs of high demand?

[quote]

I have been to 5 different gyms here in the small town I live in and not one person I have trained with or talked to takes steroids or really even knows anything about them. I saw and knew many that took the juice in the states, It was everywhere. So I do see your point that making them legal would put a stop to certain crimes and hunting down those that prescribe for whatever reason. It’s legal here without a script and knowbody wants it and illegal in the USA and many other countries and people want it. It’s really hard to say what would happen if they were legalized there until they actually are, but i don’t think that’s gonna happen anytime soon with the bad rap they get from the media making steroids out to be this BAD BAD drug. Just curious what types of regulations that could prevent anyone from walking into any tienda and buying them OTC if they were legalized? [/quote]

You can’t walk into a pharmacy and simply get narcotics over the counter so why do you think the rules change with this?