[quote]Headhunter wrote:
fightu35 wrote:
isent Vinpocetine the stuff thats in most ‘fat burning’ products these days ?
You may be thinking of Yohimbine; bad stuff.
[/quote]
I thought I see this before…its REDLINE from VPX and many others yohimbine & clen bad mix ,correct ??
[quote]KSman wrote:
socrgod wrote:
KSman wrote:
The body has a hard time clearing E from the body. E is metabolized in the liver and discharged into the gut with the liver bile.
Does this suggest using an AI to be necessary in lowering the E, or just make the process faster?
Take 50mg/day of zinc. Front load with 100mg ED for a week.
I take the Biotest ZMA supplement. Good enough?
Thanks.
An AI like Arimidex will deal very effectively with high or elevated E. It does not increase the clearance rate of E, it lowers the production rate of T–>E conversion.
“I take the Biotest ZMA supplement. Good enough?” I have not looked at what is in products for a while. They may work quite well in many cases. Only serum E2 tests will let you know how any of these things work… for you. The considerations for [life long] TRT and estrogen control may be different than for other situations. If a doctor wants to reduce one’s T levels, he will reach for a drug that has a known dose-response.
The use of zinc is something that I have been overlooking… picked up on that when reading books lately. When on TRT with adex, it gets the job done with or without zinc. But zinc has merits in any case.[/quote]
Since this thread has so many people involved and interested in feeling better, I thought I would paste my comments on the problems I was having. I’m pasting my first and most recent posts from this thread:
http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=2198608&pageNo=0
Thanks to the experts on this forum, I feel 100% better.
Note: I started just one week ago on L-Ana, Zinc, Glutamine and Vinpo. I started back exercising Thursday and added HOT-ROX to kickstart my fat loss.(30 pounds overweight) Here are my first and most recent posts:
First post(one week ago)
"I feel like absolute crap. Can barely force myself to get out of bed or do anything else. Work production sucks, erections are weak as hell, no drive and no enjoyment of anything. Two doctors and neither willing to go the TRT route. They both were very quick to change the subject from T to depression. They both were quick to advise anti-depressants.
Yes, I feel depressed, but that’s because I hate everything about the way I am right now. Since I can’t get TRT from my Dr., can anyone help with suggestions on other ways to treat myself? Are there OTC supps. that will increase my T? I’m also worried about Estrogen, I’m starting to get man boobs on top of all the other problems. Suggestions anyone. Soon please, Life sucks right now."
Most recent(today)
WOW! Only been one week and I already feel better. Morning wood? More like morning CONCRETE! It was so hard this morning and lasted so long, it was almost annoying.
I had to make an adjustment on dosage yesterday. I started out with a front load last Saturday and Sunday of .5mg each day. I then went to one drop/day for the rest of the week but wasn’t noticing much. So yesterday I upped it to 3 drops. What a difference that made.
I have noticed a gradual improvment in mood, erections and energy as the week went on and feel really good today. After only a week!!!
It is unbelievable that I could have been in such a rut for years and in just one week I could feel this much better. This site and you people are a lifesaver. I appreciate everything and will keep updating as time passes.
I would also like to apologize for starting that new thread without taking the time last week to find this one. I appreciate the advice and understanding of those that helped me.
How long does it take for the gear to clear to get a good base line?
Thank you Dog and KS and all of the others who contribute regularly with information. Your messages have helped many.
I stumbled onto this site looking for nutrition articles, and wightlifting ideas.
I had not given my T or E any thought at all. I am 41 and just beginning to lift again, and come out of bb retirement.
I have read just about everything on these threads, including googling so many bits of information. I find hormone therapy very interesting.
I have been to 2 doctors both refusing to discuss T, however, I have an appt with a third who studies and doctors only hormones.
I feel like I can hold a pretty intelligent discussion at this point, thanks to all that have contributed to these forums.
From not knowing anything about blood profiles, to being informed, I appreciate it.
Lifter123,
Welcome to the club! We’re always glad to have new members and answer questions if the need arises.
KNB
Happydog and KSman,
I have a question: what are the symptoms of low estrogen? My latest bloodwork is (3 days after T shot):
10:00 AM
Serum Test: 1460 ng/dl (200-1000 ng/dl)
Free Test: 53 pg/ml (19-26 pg/ml)
Serum Estrogen: 0 ng/dl (.5-5.0 ng/dl)
My urologist has me on the following regimen:
I’ve been on this regimen for 7 weeks…and have noticed little emotional improvement (anxiety, depression). Can the no estrogen be the cause? If so, is there any literature/website that you can point me towards to share with my urologist?
I started HRT with free t of 7 and estrogen of 20. Was that estrogen dominance? I’ve completely swung to the otherside of the pendulum.
Eggman,
Arimidex is powerful, and you are taking way too much. I’ll bet you a dollar you have no libido.
You need SOME estrogen for the following:
From my own experience, 1mg to 1.5 mg Adex per week is enough. I also split the T shots.
Please read other threads on this forum about TRT. You can look for medical research on the benefits of estrogen in men, but not too much or dominant, of course.
[quote]KSman wrote:
. Only serum E2 tests will let you know how any of these things work… for you. The use of zinc is something that I have been overlooking… picked up on that when reading books lately. When on TRT with adex, it gets the job done with or without zinc. But zinc has merits in any case.[/quote]
This is not exactly true
Urine testing, as I stated before, is much, much more superior that serum blood testing, especially for estrogens
Secondly, Labcorp’s method for extracting estrogen from blood are primarily used for…women. Their estradiol test is not the ultra sensitive extraction process. I would not rely on it.
Use Rhein Lab,s urine testing. If you cannot, worst case scenario use Quest Diagnostics. The Quest Diagnostics Ultrasensitive Estradiol Test Code 30289X is the Gold Standard amongst serum matrix estrogen assays in the United States.
I would not rely on Labcorp. They are notoriously behind on many methods.
Note that Labcorps Free Testosterone methods are duely inaccurate as well.
I would not overdue it on the Zinc. Minerals compete and balance eachother out. Excessive Zinc often depletes the bodies supply of copper. Take Zinc at 30mg a day, and cycle it on and off.
[quote]bigdawg011 wrote:
Eggman,
Arimidex is powerful, and you are taking way too much. I’ll bet you a dollar you have no libido.
You need SOME estrogen for the following:
From my own experience, 1mg to 1.5 mg Adex per week is enough. I also split the T shots.
Please read other threads on this forum about TRT. You can look for medical research on the benefits of estrogen in men, but not too much or dominant, of course.[/quote]
You also need Estrogen for brain function and joint lubrication. I second you are taking too much adex.
[quote]Get out the Door wrote:
KSman wrote:
. Only serum E2 tests will let you know how any of these things work… for you. The use of zinc is something that I have been overlooking… picked up on that when reading books lately. When on TRT with adex, it gets the job done with or without zinc. But zinc has merits in any case.
This is not exactly true
Urine testing, as I stated before, is much, much more superior that serum blood testing, especially for estrogens
Secondly, Labcorp’s method for extracting estrogen from blood are primarily used for…women. Their estradiol test is not the ultra sensitive extraction process. I would not rely on it.
Use Rhein Lab,s urine testing. If you cannot, worst case scenario use Quest Diagnostics. The Quest Diagnostics Ultrasensitive Estradiol Test Code 30289X is the Gold Standard amongst serum matrix estrogen assays in the United States.
I would not rely on Labcorp. They are notoriously behind on many methods.
Note that Labcorps Free Testosterone methods are duely inaccurate as well.
I would not overdue it on the Zinc. Minerals compete and balance eachother out. Excessive Zinc often depletes the bodies supply of copper. Take Zinc at 30mg a day, and cycle it on and off. [/quote]
If someone told me what their E2 urine or saliva numbers were, I would have no idea what to do with those.
I get Labcorp serum E2 and based on the number, I adjust adex up or down as needed. The tests show the result of the dose changes. My E2 lab numbers seem very useful. So what is the problem with that? If I used quest and the numbers were more accurate, 22 vs 22.5, that is of no therapeutic value. I am pragmatic about such things. If I can learn something new about the other testing methods, then I might beat a different drum.
[quote]KSman wrote:
If someone told me what their E2 urine or saliva numbers were, I would have no idea what to do with those.
I get Labcorp serum E2 and based on the number, I adjust adex up or down as needed. The tests show the result of the dose changes. My E2 lab numbers seem very useful. So what is the problem with that?
If I used quest and the numbers were more accurate, 22 vs 22.5, that is of no therapeutic value. I am pragmatic about such things. If I can learn something new about the other testing methods, then I might beat a different drum.[/quote]
Saliva testing, aside from cortisol numbers, is for the most part useless
Treat Urine tests in a similar manner as others. They have ranges. For estradiol, you want it smack dab in the mid range.
Note that Urine testing also tests for E1 and E3. E3 is a highly protective, cancer fighting estrogen. If your not getting urine tests, you have no idea how whatever anti estrogen is affecting it.
Labcorp’s estradiol testing methods are probably a decade or so behind, and originally designed for women. I wouldn’t even compare them to Quests…And quest is not even in the same league as Urine Markers.
It is likely you have no idea where your E2 number is actually at. Most men on 100mg of total T per week seem, on average, to need about a milligram of arimidex per week. This is typical. So you might be a benefit of being in that group that responds to arimidex in a typical, non overly sensitive manner. Other people’s trial and error before you, mostly AAS guys, helped here.
I once had a blood draw for E2 that showed up at 45…I thought that can’t be right. My urine marker later showed as 2.5, scale 1 - 7.5. So descrepancies can and do exist.
There is still alot of good info on this thread
Thanks KNB. Tons of great information all over this site, yet, I keep coming back to this area, the over 35 lifter, and the TRT threads.
I think about all of the men out there, (and physicians), that I have no idea what low T and high E can do. Guys are treated for depression with anti-depression drugs; erectile disfunction with meds, high cholesterol with satins, and the list goes on.
Eat right, lift and stay in shape, keep hormones balanced correctly, and I guy can live a long healthy life.
Thanks again.
For guys that keep hitting dead-ends with physicians, I found this web site. I can only say that they were very helpful and well informed in a telephone call. Most professional and appears legit.
For what it’s worth catagory only.
[quote]Lifter123 wrote:
For guys that keep hitting dead-ends with physicians, I found this web site. I can only say that they were very helpful and well informed in a telephone call. Most professional and appears legit.
For what it’s worth catagory only.
http://www.lifetimewellnessllc.com/
[/quote]
I just talked to the owner as well. They are firmly into T+AI+hCG. Their compounding pharmacy has a good supply of hCG, so the shortage is not impacting their clients. Sounds ok if the prices turn out to be ok. No health insurance, you pay for it all.
Principle location: Kansas near Kansas City. You must get labs and a physical from them or one of their associates.
Just a simple question (don’t know why I can’t seem to figure it out myself): is there a benefit (other than cost) of using arimidex versus aromasim? Arimidex appears to have some issues with increasing aromatase production after a time which forces the continual use of the product (not that this is a bad thing).
There also appears to be issues with lipid levels associated with arimidex (i.e. LDL increases, HDL decreases) and joint pain issues when too much is used.
From what I’ve read, aromasin (exemestane) appears to not suffer from any of those listed above. Lipid levels don’t go bad; aromatase production is not upregulated by the body (therefore no suffering from estrogen dominance upon cessation of use), and there appears to be some evidence with respect to a positive effect on bone mineral deposit.
Am I missing something?
[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:
Just a simple question (don’t know why I can’t seem to figure it out myself): is there a benefit (other than cost) of using arimidex versus aromasim? Arimidex appears to have some issues with increasing aromatase production after a time which forces the continual use of the product (not that this is a bad thing).
There also appears to be issues with lipid levels associated with arimidex (i.e. LDL increases, HDL decreases) and joint pain issues when too much is used.
From what I’ve read, aromasin (exemestane) appears to not suffer from any of those listed above. Lipid levels don’t go bad; aromatase production is not upregulated by the body (therefore no suffering from estrogen dominance upon cessation of use), and there appears to be some evidence with respect to a positive effect on bone mineral deposit.
Am I missing something? [/quote]
I had a nice long response to this deleted. Dam computer
In a roundabout way, everything you said is correct.
Note that aromasin also boosts, or at the least, maintains IGF-1 levels. Arimidex, in many cases, reduces such levels.
I just got my tests back…Im at 937 (from 198) test,
and 28 estradiol , mostly due to help from KSMAN and some info here
There would be no reason to take any of these drugs unless estrogen dominance was already a problem. In a TRT setting (as opposed to doing cycles) you’re on these drugs for life, so what happens when you stop taking them is really a non-issue.
The dosages I’ve read about at pubmed are usually in the range of 25mg to 50mg per day as opposed to anastrozole which most find effective at 1mg per week. This makes Exemestane significantly more expensive, which could be an issue for long term use.
I’d like to hear from someone who has taken both to see what subjective differences they notice.
I’ll also submit that 2+ years of anastrozole has not had any negative effect on my lipid levels and while I understand that one data point does not make a study, it just demonstrates that theoretical models only take you so far and you’re never really going to know what any drug does for YOU until you actually take it.
You can, and should, study your ass off when monkeying around with your hormones but at some point you simply have to dive in and see what happens. This is why regular testing is so important.
now what if someone was 900 test levels…with 28 estradiol…after months of using test…will this change ? stay the same…? or no…I ve read some will not convert…but most will ?