fightu35,
Thanks for being patient with me. I’m glad to hear you are getting some of the positive changes TRT can bring, and you are noticing “pumps” so that’s good too. You may be one of the lucky ones that doesn’t need an AI while on TRT. If after 5 months your E2 is at 28 (on a range of 0-54,I hope?)it sounds like you are one of the “exceptions”.
Have you noticed any shrinkage in the size of your testes, or do they ever ache? If no again, then maybe HCG isn’t urgently needed either.
I will ask since I don’t see it here, what is your Free T percentage or Free T number?
My whole point for me is to keep all the T free if possible. If it’s bound to SHBG, or converting to E2, it’s useless.
You could effectively have a Total T of 3000, but if it’s not free or bio available, it’s like having none basically. That is why we check SHBG, E2, TT, and Free T as well.
I currently have higher than the “range listed” free T and I’m happy about that too. I take a few herbs as part of my TRT plan and they seem to work, because before I started on them, my Free T numbers were way down. It might be coincidence, but I kinda doubt it…
I think it would be wise to start a protocol of HCG and doing so will probably push you into the range of needing an AI even if it’s a very small dose. You might want to read what Crisler wrote about other LH receptors in the body and realize that they are no longer stimulated without HCG.
[quote]KNB wrote:
fightu35,
Thanks for being patient with me. I’m glad to hear you are getting some of the positive changes TRT can bring, and you are noticing “pumps” so that’s good too. You may be one of the lucky ones that doesn’t need an AI while on TRT. If after 5 months your E2 is at 28 (on a range of 0-54,I hope?)it sounds like you are one of the “exceptions”.
Have you noticed any shrinkage in the size of your testes, or do they ever ache? If no again, then maybe HCG isn’t urgently needed either.
I will ask since I don’t see it here, what is your Free T percentage or Free T number?
My whole point for me is to keep all the T free if possible. If it’s bound to SHBG, or converting to E2, it’s useless.
You could effectively have a Total T of 3000, but if it’s not free or bio available, it’s like having none basically. That is why we check SHBG, E2, TT, and Free T as well.
I currently have higher than the “range listed” free T and I’m happy about that too. I take a few herbs as part of my TRT plan and they seem to work, because before I started on them, my Free T numbers were way down. It might be coincidence, but I kinda doubt it…
[/quote]
no shrinkage at all so far…I beleive my last TEST was
% was just out of the norm range ,I can find it clearly…
andand last total was 747
thank you for the reply…
Completely hypothetical post that I just made up to illustrate a point…
“I take a gram a week of testosterone and my T levels are astronomical and my E levels are normal. The guys who say you need an AI are full of shit.”
Ok, well maybe your HPTA is so fucked up that it isn’t reacting to anything. Or maybe your ability to produce aromatase is impaired for some reason. Or maybe you’re just mouthing off with bullshit.
I can think of all kinds of possible reasons for any situation that anyone cares to come up with.
The point is that there isn’t any Truth when it comes to hormones or our bodies. There are only possibilities and probabilities. There are only gray areas and inconsistencies and that’s part of what you have to deal with if you’re going to get into this game.
What “other guys” experience may relate to you or it may not. There is simply no way to know until you try things and see what happens.
We’re all lab rats here. The wise rats know they’re rats. The foolish rats think they’re not.
The point is that there isn’t any Truth when it comes to hormones or our bodies. There are only possibilities and probabilities. There are only gray areas and inconsistencies and that’s part of what you have to deal with if you’re going to get into this game.
[/quote]
I would not go that far, that statement seems to also give permission to some to ignore everything and do stupid things.
The message: What is known applies to everyone and maybe a few to a greater or lesser extent. The best course of action, other than self deception and exceptionalism, is to assume that what is known is the best course of action. Actions to the contrary will have the highest probably/certainty of adverse results.
The attitude that some gym wise lifters is that they do not have E problems unless they get gyno, then they will use a SERM; when in fact, E levels are interfering with their cycle and limiting there results. That is self deception or a lack of knowledge/understanding. I advise that adex be used all through a cycle, PCT and beyond.
One thing some TRT guys can do is educate the lifters. We know what can go wrong and understand the effects of estrogen poisoning. We cannot help those who refuse to listen.
The lifters probably also have no idea that estrogen is proven by research to be the largest factor leading to prostate enlargement which is the path to cancer.
I agree with KSman as always. Just because you don’t have gyno, doesn’t mean you don’t have issues with Estrogen while using T shots.
**Three guys I have suggested they start on adex for prostrate issues have all gotten relief from from BPH symptoms, and are chasing their wives like they were young again.
Although I realize this is a small sample group, what are the actual odds to hit three out of three unless KSman is 100% right?
Just a thought…
I didn’t mean to imply that all bets are off and anything goes. Like I said, it’s probabilities. In many cases, the probabilities are extremely high that a given course of action is either the right or wrong way to go.
This is a complicated deal and it’s very appealing to look for easy answer shortcuts like what some other guy is doing. Sometimes the other guys are right and sometimes they’re not and the only way to know the difference is to understand the issues.
In the case of adex and BPH, the mechanism is easily understood and it makes perfect sense. When you combine a solid theoretical model with experimental validation, then you’re into the high probability of success area.
When you combine bullshit with ignorance, you’re not.
How do you guys adjust your Adex dose? I’m at 1mg a week with 100mg of T cyp and I know I’m not quite there yet. (Last labs without Adex E2 56) Say with 1mg a week my next lab shows E2 38 how should I adjust? Also what is an appropriate amount of time to clear existing circulating E2 and feel results?
For a tall skinny guy I tend to have high E2 even without T. Pretreatment E2 41. Adex as a standalone without T at 1mg a week ran me to low. 1mg a week now with T I’m still not even in the ballpark. I feel about 40% improved.
[quote]brentf13 wrote:
How do you guys adjust your Adex dose? I’m at 1mg a week with 100mg of T cyp and I know I’m not quite there yet. (Last labs without Adex E2 56) Say with 1mg a week my next lab shows E2 38 how should I adjust? Also what is an appropriate amount of time to clear existing circulating E2 and feel results?
For a tall skinny guy I tend to have high E2 even without T. Pretreatment E2 41. Adex as a standalone without T at 1mg a week ran me to low. 1mg a week now with T I’m still not even in the ballpark. I feel about 40% improved.[/quote]
You’ve left some variables out and given two different numbers to calculate from.
Is your pretreatment E2, 56 or 41? You say both. Until you have a consistent dosage of adex, and a E2 test number for that dosage we can’t help calculate a dosage for you to use.
Or did I miss something?
Hey guys,
Thanks to everyone for all this great info, many would be COMPLETELY lost without it.
I am quite envious of all the americans that can just switch doctors whenever theirs isn’t doing their job, In canada, your pretty much stuck with whoever you were lucky enough to get. And on top of that, anything you ask for is weighed in benefit vs. cost to taxpayer. So my doctor won’t even think about getting a hormone panel for a 22yr old. BTW, I have as many symptoms as anyone, but I’d like to keep this post to the point.
So my question concerns the fact that as I understand we have come to the conclusion that urine samples are the way to go and blood and saliva is not accurate for what we are testing(am I wrong?). All the companies I’ve found on the net that do urine sampling need a doctor to order the kit for you.
Will naturopathic doctors order a urine kit for you?
If not, is blood sampling accurate enough to give a general idea of where you’re at? And will doctors take blood tests like the ones from LEF.ORG seriously?
There are differing schools of thought on types of testing. Blood serum is now considered to be “less accurate” than saliva testing, and 24 hour urine samples supposedly give a better all around picture from an entire day’s average.
Most N.M.D.'s will order tests for you, and as long as the they are board recognized, there shouldn’t be any difficulty. As far as getting an M.D. to agree with one (N.M.D.) may be another story.
Are there any D.O.'s around where you live? They may carry more weight… LEF.org is recognized as a legitimate, accurate testing lab (at least here in the lower 48) and any doc reading results from them shouldn’t question the testing methods or results.
37yo, been on HRT at 1cc/2 wks. I have been following KSMan’s recommendation of eod shots and it definitley works!
My initial tests had total T at 108. E2 wasn’t tested for initially and I can’t remember what Free T was.
These are the results from my last bloodwork done two weeks ago:
Total T 490 (300-1100)
Free T 132 ( top of range 155)
E2 46 (0-54)
I talked my Doc ( a D.O.) into prescribing A-dex @ .25mg/eod. I just started that today.
How does everything look? Seems like my Total T is a little low compared to my Free T. I thought I had read something about the correlation but I can’t remember where or locate it through a search.
I am 43 yr old male on TRT about a year. Take 75mg of cream am and pm 1mg of arimidex twice a week and 250iu hcg every third day. Got recent labs : total T: 1500. E2: 10 or less. FreeT: 42 .
I was having some joint aches and I am assuming this is from to low E levels, energy not great either. What I figured I need to do is lower T to 8-900 and bring E2 levels up to 16-20.
So I lowered cream to 75mg( I must absorb this well) and taking 1 mg of arimidex per week (25mg every other day), kept hcg dosage same. How does this sound? Feedback would be great. Initial labs my T was 275 and E2 was 17.
haycar,
Did you mean .25mg of adex EOD?
If your doctor doesn’t tell you to lower your T dosage, why would you want to…?
If your joints ache, and you know your E2 is 10, I (and many others) would suggest you cut back on your adex dosage to maybe .25mg every third day and see how you feel.
If you stop the adex completely for three days, and the joint pain subsides you’ve found the problem. Then start back at .25mg ETD, and see how it goes in two weeks or so. If the joint pain isn’t back, and your energy is, you’ve nailed it.
Seeing as how you initially had a low E2 score, a very small adex dosage may be the way for you.
So if a person were to take a supplement like Arimatest which says it signals your body to produce more testosterone and blocks estrogen. You would gain muscle beyond expectations??? (over 35 )
Androgel v. Androstenetrione v. Testim v. Andromen v. Prohormones
Andromen is a lot less expensive than Androgel. Pro-hormones would have fit the bill, except they are all pretty much illegal, though your doctor can prescribe them.
Anyway, I’m curious about mild support, the kind one could get with mild doses of pro-hormones, such as 19-norandrostenedione or 1,4-androstadienedione (1,4 AD)(which works well taken orally) when they were more legal.
Androgel seems to result in the drug eventually replacing your natural production as the natural production tapers off in response to the exterior support. Seems almost to be self-defeating, not to mention the estrogen level problems so many people report.
I’m not sure I see much that just offers some support rather than leeching away until it is just a replacement.
The replacement of natural testosterone is the result of any TRT. Your natural production however, returns to the levels you were producing before you started as soon as you quit TRT. Most of us go on TRT because our production is already too low.
