Easier to Kill w/ a Gun Than W/out a Gun

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
501

[quote]tom63 wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
tom63 wrote:

My son belongs to the NRA at 14. My daughter and son will soon get life memberships.

Skip the NRA. They lack backbone. Get them memberships with GOA or JPFO.

mike

I did belong to the JFPO, but I can’t take them very seriously. Like it or not, the NRA is the big boy on the block.
[/quote]

sigh I know. But the NRA will sell us out to see to it that cowboy revolvers and $60,000 shotguns are protected. I’ve seen more than a few gun control measures (such as the vet disarmament bill) lauded by the NRA. Besides, the NRA actually backs up the BATFE.

mike

502

[quote]Loose Tool wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
tom63 wrote:

My son belongs to the NRA at 14. My daughter and son will soon get life memberships.

Skip the NRA. They lack backbone. Get them memberships with GOA or JPFO.

mike

Interesting article in Reason on a former lobbyist for the NRA. While the GOA and JPFO have a no compromise position on the issues, like them or not, the NRA can get pro-gun control legislators defeated.

Speak Softly and Carry a Concealed Handgun [/quote]

Good article. Thanks for the link.

mike

503

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Those statistics came from the US Department of Justice. Black on Black crime is a real problem that has affected the entire community from the poorest in the ghetto right up to the rich and famous like Bill Cosby or Marvin Gaye. [/quote]

I’d add Carl Rowan to the list.

504

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
tom63 wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
tom63 wrote:

My son belongs to the NRA at 14. My daughter and son will soon get life memberships.

Skip the NRA. They lack backbone. Get them memberships with GOA or JPFO.

mike

I did belong to the JFPO, but I can’t take them very seriously. Like it or not, the NRA is the big boy on the block.

sigh I know. But the NRA will sell us out to see to it that cowboy revolvers and $60,000 shotguns are protected. I’ve seen more than a few gun control measures (such as the vet disarmament bill) lauded by the NRA. Besides, the NRA actually backs up the BATFE.

mike[/quote]

I really don’t think so. most other gun organizations are fringe crank groups. I might actually agree with them. Take the JFPO, yes I did belong to them. Yes, I did have the copy of the translation of the Nazi weapons act comparing the gun control act of 68 to it. But who will take that seriously?

Weirdo groups that might be right are good in a way in that it allows the regular group to be “reasonable”.

505

[quote]pushharder wrote:
tom63 wrote:
…A little over a year ago, Michael Barone, sp, of US News and World Report wrote about the 20 some years of legal concealed carry in Florida. He said how he wrote that there would be blood in the streets and so on.

And he wrote he was wrong. He realized that good guys don’t do bad things. And good guys can be a great deterrent against crime…

Can you cite the reference? I’m interested in reading that piece.

[/quote]

Read it at my mom and dad’s house Push, I’m sorry.

506

[quote]pushharder wrote:
tom63 wrote:
…A little over a year ago, Michael Barone, sp, of US News and World Report wrote about the 20 some years of legal concealed carry in Florida. He said how he wrote that there would be blood in the streets and so on.

And he wrote he was wrong. He realized that good guys don’t do bad things. And good guys can be a great deterrent against crime…

Can you cite the reference? I’m interested in reading that piece.

[/quote]

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070429/7barone.htm

Here’s the link.

507

[quote]tom63 wrote:
pushharder wrote:
tom63 wrote:
…A little over a year ago, Michael Barone, sp, of US News and World Report wrote about the 20 some years of legal concealed carry in Florida. He said how he wrote that there would be blood in the streets and so on.

And he wrote he was wrong. He realized that good guys don’t do bad things. And good guys can be a great deterrent against crime…

Can you cite the reference? I’m interested in reading that piece.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070429/7barone.htm

Here’s the link.[/quote]

Personally, I think this is why we’re winning. We just need to keep up the heat.

508

[quote]tom63 wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
tom63 wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
tom63 wrote:

My son belongs to the NRA at 14. My daughter and son will soon get life memberships.

Skip the NRA. They lack backbone. Get them memberships with GOA or JPFO.

mike

I did belong to the JFPO, but I can’t take them very seriously. Like it or not, the NRA is the big boy on the block.

sigh I know. But the NRA will sell us out to see to it that cowboy revolvers and $60,000 shotguns are protected. I’ve seen more than a few gun control measures (such as the vet disarmament bill) lauded by the NRA. Besides, the NRA actually backs up the BATFE.

mike

I really don’t think so. most other gun organizations are fringe crank groups. I might actually agree with them. Take the JFPO, yes I did belong to them. Yes, I did have the copy of the translation of the Nazi weapons act comparing the gun control act of 68 to it. But who will take that seriously?

Weirdo groups that might be right are good in a way in that it allows the regular group to be “reasonable”.

[/quote]

Right, but when “reasonable” groups like the NRA are accused of being extremist, they add legitimacy to the gun control bills that they back.

mike

509

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
tom63 wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
tom63 wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
tom63 wrote:

My son belongs to the NRA at 14. My daughter and son will soon get life memberships.

Skip the NRA. They lack backbone. Get them memberships with GOA or JPFO.

mike

I did belong to the JFPO, but I can’t take them very seriously. Like it or not, the NRA is the big boy on the block.

sigh I know. But the NRA will sell us out to see to it that cowboy revolvers and $60,000 shotguns are protected. I’ve seen more than a few gun control measures (such as the vet disarmament bill) lauded by the NRA. Besides, the NRA actually backs up the BATFE.

mike

I really don’t think so. most other gun organizations are fringe crank groups. I might actually agree with them. Take the JFPO, yes I did belong to them. Yes, I did have the copy of the translation of the Nazi weapons act comparing the gun control act of 68 to it. But who will take that seriously?

Weirdo groups that might be right are good in a way in that it allows the regular group to be “reasonable”.

Right, but when “reasonable” groups like the NRA are accused of being extremist, they add legitimacy to the gun control bills that they back.

mike[/quote]

Not really, the other side always thinks you’re unreasonable. Saying our elected leaders are like Nazis tends to make you look silly.

Take the “cop killer bullet” thing. We know that a lot of rifle bullets with penetrate vests, so the NRA did a the right thing in trying to defeat various bills. it’s very easy to explain this to a citizen. It’s also easy to then show that the anti gun crowd knows this and show they just want to ban stuff, not help police officers.

Telling someone the the GC act of 68 is a direct copy of the Nazi weapons law is a tough sell. You just look weird most times. Believe me I tried. Mt representative gave me the , " I don’t know Tom skeptical tone". And this is a guy who knows me and will return my phone calls.

It requires more work on their part and more partisan type of belief than many will give. It’s easier to believe an opponent is dumb, mistaken , or just hysterical

510

[quote]Loose Tool wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Those statistics came from the US Department of Justice. Black on Black crime is a real problem that has affected the entire community from the poorest in the ghetto right up to the rich and famous like Bill Cosby or Marvin Gaye.

I’d add Carl Rowan to the list.

[/quote]

This is a classic example of the hypocrisy of gun control nuts. They are quite enthusiastic to see the underclasses disarmed but they still want that level of protection for themselves.

ie Joe Biden doesn’t want any of us commoners to have assault rifles or magazines with more than a ten round capacity to protect ourselves with. But I can guarantee that his Secret Service bodyguards are packing assault rifles, sub machine guns, high capacity handguns and body armor.

Or how about the Hillary and Bill Clinton campaign add that mimicked the end of the Sopranos? No one would get that close to them in a restaurant without the SS bodyguards doing something about it, let alone stand there staring at them like they had a problem with them.

These people live in a different world where they do not have to fend for themselves. So they are not affected when they put roadblocks in the way of those who are not as affluent. Plus if they go ahead and break the law they get treated better.

511

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Lucy Yates: The scars are still visible on her neck

Here are some more stories of British women being hacked up. I am sure a lot of Americans will not be able to understand the mentality of the British. But the British will say it’s a good thing those women didn’t have guns to defend themselves with because they might have shot their attackers. And two wrongs don’t make a right.

The girl who died 3 times: Stab victim learns to walk again after frenzied attack in a supermarket

A young woman has spoken for the first time of her amazing recovery after being stabbed 27 times in a supermarket aisle.

Lucy Yates, 20, had two collapsed lungs, a punctured liver and severe spinal damage after the attack by a paranoid schizophrenic.

As paramedics desperately fought to save her life in the ambulance, the sales assistant’s heart and breathing stopped three times. Each time they thought they had lost her.

Or how about attacks in the home.

Murdered, just like mother: Woman hacked to death in chilling echo of 1994 horror

A woman who has been hacked to death with a meat cleaver lost her mother in almost identical circumstances more than a decade ago.

Mother-of-three Claire Marshall, 35, was repeatedly knifed at her home at the weekend as she was about to set off for work in an off-licence.

Fourteen years earlier her mother Marjorie, 50, was stabbed 30 times and left to die at the family home by her adopted son John.

512

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Those statistics came from the US Department of Justice. Black on Black crime is a real problem that has affected the entire community from the poorest in the ghetto right up to the rich and famous like Bill Cosby or Marvin Gaye.

I’d add Carl Rowan to the list.

This is a classic example of the hypocrisy of gun control nuts. They are quite enthusiastic to see the underclasses disarmed but they still want that level of protection for themselves.

ie Joe Biden doesn’t want any of us commoners to have assault rifles or magazines with more than a ten round capacity to protect ourselves with. But I can guarantee that his Secret Service bodyguards are packing assault rifles, sub machine guns, high capacity handguns and body armor.

Or how about the Hillary and Bill Clinton campaign add that mimicked the end of the Sopranos? No one would get that close to them in a restaurant without the SS bodyguards doing something about it, let alone stand there staring at them like they had a problem with them.

These people live in a different world where they do not have to fend for themselves. So they are not affected when they put roadblocks in the way of those who are not as affluent. Plus if they go ahead and break the law they get treated better. [/quote]

Dianne Feinstein a noted gun control proponent, had a concealed carry permit. She’s an elitist tool like the rest of the liberals.

513

[quote]Sifu wrote:

Lucy Yates: The scars are still visible on her neck

Here are some more stories of British women being hacked up. I am sure a lot of Americans will not be able to understand the mentality of the British. But the British will say it’s a good thing those women didn’t have guns to defend themselves with because they might have shot their attackers. And two wrongs don’t make a right.

The girl who died 3 times: Stab victim learns to walk again after frenzied attack in a supermarket

A young woman has spoken for the first time of her amazing recovery after being stabbed 27 times in a supermarket aisle.

Lucy Yates, 20, had two collapsed lungs, a punctured liver and severe spinal damage after the attack by a paranoid schizophrenic.

As paramedics desperately fought to save her life in the ambulance, the sales assistant’s heart and breathing stopped three times. Each time they thought they had lost her.

Or how about attacks in the home.

Murdered, just like mother: Woman hacked to death in chilling echo of 1994 horror

A woman who has been hacked to death with a meat cleaver lost her mother in almost identical circumstances more than a decade ago.

Mother-of-three Claire Marshall, 35, was repeatedly knifed at her home at the weekend as she was about to set off for work in an off-licence.

Fourteen years earlier her mother Marjorie, 50, was stabbed 30 times and left to die at the family home by her adopted son John.

[/quote]

Yeah, God forbid someone defend himself or herself. Europeans are such weenies.

514

Sifu, stop posting random shit that you are finding on the daily mail. It’s like me grabbing headlines from the National Enquirer and claiming they have relevence to the situation in the US.

And when you keep going on about it being elitist for the president or whoever to have secret service armed bodyguards but to try and restrict joe public’s access to assault rifles then you are just showing how stupid you are.

What are the chances that the secret service bodyguard might just have a higher level of screening, training and general awareness than some random person off the street?

Yes it is elitest because they choose the elite to go into those types of jobs.

And yes I am elitest, yes I consider myself to be more intelligent than the average person in the UK. Yes I consider myself to be more succesful than the average person in the UK. Yes it worries me that the Sun is the most read newspaper in the UK and they can effectively choose the winning party at an election due to the fact that a fair chunk of their readers do not have the intelectual wherewithal or the interest to actually understand the issues. And no I am not going to apologise for holding those views.

Laws need to cater for the general population, I am not suggesting lowest common denominator but you do have to be aware that not everyone is bright enough to realise that coffee is served hot.

516

Push, if you want to go out and hire a secret service trained bodyguard for your wife then be my guest.

And if you want to know why the president gets one paid for by the state, it’s because there is a legitimate threat that people will try to attack him. He gets death threats on a daily basis and there is a history of US presidents meeting hot lead.

If you want to know why her life is of less value, then you could look at the fact that your wife being killed would not affect the global stock exchange, or be liable to cause race riots or a war or cost the US tax payer a significant ammount of money.

Of course, to you and to her and to your friends and family her life is of more value. And on a certain level, the President is just a person and a public servant however the role of the President has a greater impact on a larger percentage of the population than the role of your wife, my wife, you or me.

517

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu, stop posting random shit that you are finding on the daily mail. It’s like me grabbing headlines from the National Enquirer and claiming they have relevence to the situation in the US. [/quote]

I have seen the National Enquirer get praised by members of the MSM for scooping them on stories. But I wasn’t quoting from them so they are irrelevant.

The size of the paper that information is printed on has nothing to do with the quality of the information. Which is a factor you have based your criticism on.

The Mail is the second highest selling paper in the UK.

The real issue is you don’t like it’s political positions. Britain has a lot of problems with due to Labour government policy. The daily Mail doesn’t spin, soft sell or outright ignore the results of Labour policy.

[quote]
And when you keep going on about it being elitist for the president or whoever to have secret service armed bodyguards but to try and restrict joe public’s access to assault rifles then you are just showing how stupid you are. [/quote]

No you are the one who is stupid. You prove that you are the one who is stupid by suggesting that someone who has armed bodyguards for their protection isn’t being elitist when they prevent others from having the same level of security because they don’t think they are worthy of it.

What makes you think think that their lives any more valuable than the rest of us?

[quote]
What are the chances that the secret service bodyguard might just have a higher level of screening, training and general awareness than some random person off the street? [/quote]

So what. If someone assaults you with deadly force, they aren’t going to ask what your level of qualifications is so they can determine if they are going to kill you.

I have a lot of relatives who served in the military who the British government now says can’t be trusted to have a firearm to defend our family. So cut the pretentious bullshit.

[quote]
Yes it is elitest because they choose the elite to go into those types of jobs. [/quote]

A democracy is supposed to be governance of the people, by the people. Just because one has a job serving the people it doesn’t make them some kind special or better than the rest of us. They put their pants on one leg at a time just like the rest of us.

So again you need to cut the pretentious bullshit.

[quote]
And yes I am elitest, yes I consider myself to be more intelligent than the average person in the UK. Yes I consider myself to be more succesful than the average person in the UK. Yes it worries me that the Sun is the most read newspaper in the UK and they can effectively choose the winning party at an election due to the fact that a fair chunk of their readers do not have the intelectual wherewithal or the interest to actually understand the issues. And no I am not going to apologise for holding those views. [/quote]

I am smarter than most of them too and I am smarter than you. But I don’t let that go to my head so I think I am so superior to everyone else that I deserve special privileges while denying them to others. Like being able to protect myself.

Rupert Murdoch owns the sun. He also owns a lot of the newspapers in Australia and Canada. Two commonwealth countries that have seen their crime rates increase after enacting strict gun control laws.

But you do have a point that the British are stupid. They are stupid because they think that just because they have less people getting shot all the other mayhem like glassing and stabbings doesn’t count.

[quote]
Laws need to cater for the general population, I am not suggesting lowest common denominator but you do have to be aware that not everyone is bright enough to realise that coffee is served hot. [/quote]

But the majority of us realize that coffee is hot. The majority of people should not be stripped of a crucial right just because a few of us aren’t too bright. We don’t strip people of their other, less important rights based upon intelligence.

520

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Push, if you want to go out and hire a secret service trained bodyguard for your wife then be my guest. [/quote]

So essentially you don’t give a fuck about us commoners who live in poor/bad areas and can’t afford professional bodyguards. As long as the elites are taken care of you perfectly happy.

[quote]
And if you want to know why the president gets one paid for by the state, it’s because there is a legitimate threat that people will try to attack him. He gets death threats on a daily basis and there is a history of US presidents meeting hot lead. [/quote]

There are plenty of people who have received death threats and been murder victims. The President is nothing special in that regard.

He doesn’t spend his time in areas like my neighborhood he spends his time in nice areas. When he goes out in public there are lots of witnesses around him, plus some of them have way better video cameras than the grainy CCTV that us commoners might have to rely upon. Besides if 911 or 999 gets a phone call saying an assassin is attacking the President or the Prime Minister they will send someone right away.

If CCTV and 999 or 911 are perfectly adequate for the protection of the rest of society why aren’t they adequate for leaders?

[quote]
If you want to know why her life is of less value, then you could look at the fact that your wife being killed would not affect the global stock exchange, or be liable to cause race riots or a war or cost the US tax payer a significant ammount of money. [/quote]

There have been riots started over commoners getting killed. How much money one has or lacks shouldn’t have any bearing on the value of their life.

[quote]
Of course, to you and to her and to your friends and family her life is of more value. And on a certain level, the President is just a person and a public servant however the role of the President has a greater impact on a larger percentage of the population than the role of your wife, my wife, you or me.[/quote]

Not at all. We can get new Presidents. Every four years there is a big competition for the job. Family members on the other hand are irreplaceable.