[quote]tom63 wrote:
Yep, but 135 gr, 115gr, 125 gr WOULD ALSO WORK imo.
[/quote]
Not nearly as satisfactorily.
CCI-Speer 200-grain “flying ashtray” for the win.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
tom63 wrote:
…you’re right, it’s so much better to be an innocent victim of some stupid drive-by shooting, or to be shot by police for drawing your wallet…
THOSE THINGS HAPPEN SO MUCH LESS THAN AN INNOCENT PROTECTING THEMSELVES OR OTHERS, now go back to picking tulips.
…but how often is someone glassed? [/quote]
In Britain they have a hundred a week. In the US I wouldn’t know, because it is so rare. Usually here if a bottle does get used as a weapon it is usually used to hit someone over the head up in the hairline.
While it sometimes does happen that some innocent bystander gets caught up in violence, it is not that common of an occurrence. It certainly is nowhere near the number of people who are directly targeted for acts of violence and therefore have a need to defend themselves.
[quote]tom63 wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Blacksnake wrote:
Sifu wrote:
In America we don’t have a big problem with glassing, because it is asking to get shot. If you went into a bar in Detroit and smashed a bottle in some sisters face you would be lucky to make it out of the parking lot alive. In Britain people do it with impunity because they no the risks are low and the punishments are meager.
And you’d better not get caught by the Cops either, because the law takes a very dim view of this crime, classified as “mayhem”…The law will come after you full-force, and if it goes to a jury, get ready for some prison time, because you just provided the evidence to send you up the river: The mutilated victim’s face!. The Torts lawyers will sue, so forget any income over subsistence for the rest of your life…That is, if you make it out of prison alive, because mutilators are seen as little better than child molesters, (male or female is irrelevant,you are going to be someone’s Bitch, if you don’t get shanked dead or get your own face mutilated in short order) and if you do make it out, better watch you back, the word will be out on you…But this all depends on if you make it out alive (from Sifu’s example scenario)in the first place…
No, we don’t play that shit in the USA on any level, and I am disgusted to learn this trend has taken hold in UK nightlife. The only reason the UK still has a tourist industry is that this is basically unreported outside the UK…Few civilized people simply out for a drink would expose themselves to such a cowardly attack scenario, knowing it possible in advance, and that they are legally rendered helpless to defend against it(!). These “glasser” criminals are akin to Taliban scum, who throw caustics in schoolgirls faces for daring to get an education(!). They deserve the same as an atavistic Taliban terrorist too: 230 grains of copper-jacketed lead hollow-point between the runnin’ lights…
…you’re right, it’s so much better to be an innocent victim of some stupid drive-by shooting, or to be shot by police for drawing your wallet…
THOSE THINGS HAPPEN SO MUCH LESS THAN AN INNOCENT PROTECTING THEMSELVES OR OTHERS, now go back to picking tulips.
[/quote]
Not according to every study that I have every seen.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Actually the data you quoted on rape was from 1998 so not exactly up to date. I did notice the age of the data I just couldn’t find anything more recent.
I agree with you that any data like this will be skewed based on the sampling method, then whatever the agenda of the group who is presenting the data, that is the slant you will see.
The data from nation master that I quoted on Australia was claimed to be the most up to date figures. The only numerical date I could find was for it was 2002. But it is still more recent than 1998.
The reliability of data collection can vary drastically. One thing I will say for the reliability of US figures over UK figures is this. In the US the FBI crime figures considered to be the most authoritative. Because their figures are used by both the Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches there is a lot less room for politicization of the figures.
In the UK where there isn’t a separation of powers the statistics are being produced by the party in charge of the government. So there has been a lot of politicization because these figures reflect upon their job performance. There have been a number of news articles and scandals regarding this subject in the British press recently. [/quote]
We have already been over separation of powers, don’t embarass yourself again.
The figures are politicised in both countries.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Where is your evidence for this spike in gun crime since 1997?
Are you serious? Is this a joke? Do you even follow the news in the UK?
It is a well established fact that the number of gun crimes in the UK doubled between 1997 and 2002. Based upon the Labour governments own figures. Figures which have proven to be deliberately manipulated to make the crime rate lower than it really is. I just posted several news articles yesterday and others have posted the stats.
So fuck you. I am not your bitch. Do it yourself. I am not going to waste my time google searching to prove something that you know damn well is true. Provided of course that you actually follow the news in the UK.
[/quote]
You really are quite dense if you cannot see that the figures from 1997 onwards follow the trend that was set before 1997.
As a side note given that there were a number of new things that could be considered gun crime after 1997 and in susbsequent law changes, for instance crimes involving replica guns, the figures are skewed. The reports you refer to yesterday when they are talking about unreported gun crime they are mainly talking about someone being aware that someone has a gun. The report states that only in a very few of the cases to which they are referring was a shot even fired.
Look up incremental increases and you might learn something. Did you pass maths at school? If so, how?
no it doesn’t. If you were right, the crime figures including shootings in the UK would be significantly higher than in the US. They are not, therefore you are wrong. Again!
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
AndyG wrote:
Ha ha ha ha ha! I’ve already told you not to bother Cockney. Sifu makes up his stats. He will discount yours while quoting his own froma gun lobbyist’s website.
Ha ha ha ha! It is quite funny that you have shown him to be a liar once again.
HA HA HA HA Andy why don’t you look at the dates on the information Cockney quoting. Some of that is over twenty years old. While the most damning one from 1992 is using estimates that are mathematically arrived at based upon a survey of 4008 women. None of the information he quoted is from before the turn of the century.
To give a 2% confidence interval at a confidence level of 99% for a population of 150,000,000 (roughly the number of women in the US) you need a sample size of 4,160. Increasing the sample size significantly higher would not increase the accuracy of the data.
Seems along with knowing nothing about US political procedure, UK political procedure and UK nationality law you also struggle with statistics.
A couple of years ago the Lancet used a similar method to take a statistical sample from the worst areas of Iraq then they just used a formula based upon the entire countries population that gave them an estimated death toll from the Iraq invasion of 500,000 dead. Their estimate was quickly disproven and the Lancet became a laughing stock.
To blunt your methodology is a load of shit.[/quote]
Which is why you need to ensure that the sample that you take is reprasentative. There is a whole science based around this. It is evidently too complicated for you to understand.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Blacksnake wrote:
Sifu wrote:
In America we don’t have a big problem with glassing, because it is asking to get shot. If you went into a bar in Detroit and smashed a bottle in some sisters face you would be lucky to make it out of the parking lot alive. In Britain people do it with impunity because they no the risks are low and the punishments are meager.
And you’d better not get caught by the Cops either, because the law takes a very dim view of this crime, classified as “mayhem”…The law will come after you full-force, and if it goes to a jury, get ready for some prison time, because you just provided the evidence to send you up the river: The mutilated victim’s face!. The Torts lawyers will sue, so forget any income over subsistence for the rest of your life…That is, if you make it out of prison alive, because mutilators are seen as little better than child molesters, (male or female is irrelevant,you are going to be someone’s Bitch, if you don’t get shanked dead or get your own face mutilated in short order) and if you do make it out, better watch you back, the word will be out on you…But this all depends on if you make it out alive (from Sifu’s example scenario)in the first place…
No, we don’t play that shit in the USA on any level, and I am disgusted to learn this trend has taken hold in UK nightlife. The only reason the UK still has a tourist industry is that this is basically unreported outside the UK…Few civilized people simply out for a drink would expose themselves to such a cowardly attack scenario, knowing it possible in advance, and that they are legally rendered helpless to defend against it(!). These “glasser” criminals are akin to Taliban scum, who throw caustics in schoolgirls faces for daring to get an education(!). They deserve the same as an atavistic Taliban terrorist too: 230 grains of copper-jacketed lead hollow-point between the runnin’ lights…
Thank you. I have been trying to get the point across to Cockney for a while that in the US violence has consequences. If you look back in the thread I provided a whole bunch of links for women who were glassed in nightclubs and pubs. The average sentences their attackers received were around 2 years. I’ll dig up the links for you.
Here look at this shit. In the UK they have 5,000 glassing’s a year. That is a hundred a week. Yet just because they don’t have as many shootings as the US the British have this fantasy that Britain is much much safer than the US.
All these glassing articles are young women. There are a couple of models, a singer one or two cosmetologists. They have had their lives ruined and their careers destroyed.
In Britain the average rate of young women being admitted to a hospital A&E for treatment of glassing wounds is one to two per week. For men the average is even higher.
Here are two from Liverpool in one week.
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/...00252-20083371/
A WOMAN needed 12 stitches after being glassed on a night out.
The young woman was seen arguing with another woman before she had a glass shoved in her face in Coast Bar, Waverley Street, Southport.
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/...00252-20114920/
A 25-YEAR-OLD woman accused of glassing a part-time model in the face has denied being jealous of her.
Jenny Walker is left with permanent scarring after a New Year?s Eve attack at the then Elephant Pub in Woolton, now known as Casa del Cocodrilo.
http://fighthangover.blogspot…
A NEWBURY pub has agreed to use plastic glasses following two glassing incidents this year.
A DRUNKEN thug who glassed a woman and then attacked her husband in a west Wiltshire nightclub has been jailed for eight months.
https://www.express.co.uk/...glassing-attack
A PRETTY hairdresser told yesterday how a glassing attack left her with such horrific facial scars she was forced to give up her job.
Louise Reeves, 21, needed more than 60 stitches and was almost blinded when Samantha Attrill slashed her with a broken bottle.
Before the nightclub attack she had been offered modelling work but her dreams of a career as a fashion model have also now been shattered.
Attrill, 23, was jailed for four years this week after a jury found her guilty of malicious wounding.
Research shows that 5,000 people a year fall victim to bottle and glass attacks in Britain, prompting calls for a full ban on all glass in pubs and clubs.
http://www.thisisplymouth.co.u…
AN Exeter City Council worker who lied to police about being in a nightspot when a woman was left permanently scarred in a glass attack, said he was the victim of mistaken identity.
A glass was used in an attack on Christine Pearce, 23, in the Timepiece club, causing cuts to her face which required stitches, Exeter Crown Court heard. She had scarring near her nose and is now unable to wear contact lenses.
Girl, 14, nearly blinded by glass thugs at carnival
http://www.thisisplymouth.co.u…
A MOTHER of two launched an unprovoked glass attack on a woman in a Newton Abbot pub, cutting open her head.
But a judge at Exeter Crown Court spared Catherine Regan, 37, from serving a prison sentence.
Recorder Michael Allen QC told Regan, of Greenway Road, Newton Abbot: "I have to strain to stop sending you to custody and the victim may wonder why that is.
"The vast majority of judges would take that course but that would have the Draconian effect of you losing custody of your children when they are at a vulnerable age.
http://www.southwalesargus.co…
GLASS and bottle attacks in Gwent have soared by 130 per cent amid claims by a leading police officer that cheap booze and supermarket offers could be to blame.
In 2007, there were 33 incidents involving bottles and glasses, but this year?s figures show the number of attacks has increased to 76 incidents.
Attacks in Newport have also increased from 14 to 26 reported incidents, a rise of almost 86 per cent, despite an Argus campaign to encourage pubs to use plastic glasses.
http://www.northantset.co.uk/...fter.3545848.jp
Published Date: 01 December 2007
A WOMAN was left needing reconstructive surgery to her face after a glassing attack outside a pub, a crown court heard.
http://www.eastkentmercury.co…
A YOUNG mother faces having a baby in prison after being locked up for 21 months for slicing a young girl?s face with a glass.
The court heard that teenage victim Nina Belarbi had been outside the Guinea Butt pub in Tunbridge Wells in January 2007 when she saw Skilton, 20.
Valeria Swift, prosecuting, said Miss Belarbi approached Skilton about an argument she had with others, and Skilton became aggressive.
Miss Belarbi told her to back off and calm down, but that Skilton?s boyfriend was urging her to fight.
Skilton grabbed a bottle, smashed it, and then picked up pieces of glass and swiped it across the victim?s face.
Miss Belarbi was left with blood pouring form her left cheek and needed of 20 stitches.
http://www.news.com.au/...5001021,00.html
A TALENTED Australian singer has spoken about a vicious glassing in a UK bar that left her with shocking injuries and devastated her career.
Simonne Cooper suffered a 10cm cut from her eye to her jaw in a confrontation with another woman at a private members’ club in Mayfair.
http://edinburghnews.scotsman…
Published Date: 25 August 2008
A MODEL scarred for life by a glass attack to the face is planning to return to the spotlight, it was reported today.
Joanne Minto, 20, feared she would have to give up a promising career in the modelling industry after her face was cut to shreds and she was blinded in one eye in a drunken attack.
http://www.northamptonchron.co…
New figures have revealed police in Northampton were called to deal with 136 violent town centre “glassing” attacks in the past three years.
http://news.net.pk/...lassing-charge/
NRL star faces lesser ?glassing? charge
LEAGUE star Greg Bird, back from holidaying with the girlfriend he allegedly glassed, has had a charge against him downgraded.
http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk/...ls/article.html
THIS video-grab photograph shows a man fleeing a city nightclub after viciously attacking a woman with a glass, leaving her permanently scarred.
A jury at Exeter Crown Court yesterday found 23-year-old Doucoure, of Haldon Road, St David’s, guilty of wounding Christine Pearce with intent to cause her grievous bodily harm.
Miss Pearce, also 23, told the court how Doucoure approached her, began swearing and then attacked her with the glass, at the club in Little Castle Street, on June 28 last year.
She said the defendant was a distant acquaintance and she had rebuffed his attentions at another nightclub in the past.
The victim was led to an ambulance, blood pouring from her face after suffering cuts to one of her eyes and her nose.
Detective Constable Blain Bishop told the Echo after the verdict: "This was a horrific incident, particularly for such a young woman, who has been badly scarred across her face and it has had a traumatic effect on her. She still has fragments of glass embedded in her eye to this day.
http://www.bournemouthecho.co…
TWO young Bournemouth women have each been sentenced to 12 months detention after being convicted of separate glassing incidents that left their female victims scarred for life.
I don’t know if it will be difficult for all the “rootin tootin” “gun toting” “gun culture” “redneck cowboys” on this forum to believe but it appears that Australians engage in this activity too. Imagine that.
http://www.news.com.au/...27256-2,00.html
A WOMAN glassed in the face and now blind in one eye has demanded pubs and clubs be forced to use toughened plastic cups.
The 20-year-old’s call follows plans by police to encourage Sydney CBD pubs and clubs to consider changing to the plastic alternative late at night.
Ms Kelley is the fourth person to be glassed in NSW in less than three weeks. On Melbourne Cup night a young man suffered severe cuts to the face when struck with a glass at a Surry Hills pub.
And last Friday, a 19-year-old Tamworth teenager was rushed to hospital after being allegedly hit with a schooner glass at a hotel.
On October 13 an off-duty police officer was hit in the eye with a glass at a city pub when his alleged attacker made an unwanted advance towards one of his colleagues.
http://news.theage.com.au/...81026-58u9.html
NSW police have blamed warmer weather for a spate of weekend glassing attacks
http://antimisandry.com/...irts-15739.html
October 18, 2008
KRYSTELLE Kelley’s life changed forever when a glass was smashed into her face at a nightclub.
The 21-year-old - blinded in one eye and facing years of plastic surgery - yesterday slammed the sale of T-shirts glorifying glassing.
http://www.metro.co.uk/...mp;in_a_source=
These are the horrific injuries a teenager suffered when she was glassed at a nightclub.
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Your views (4)
Horror image of ‘girl gang glassing’ victim
Tuesday, October 28, 2008
These are the horrific injuries a teenager suffered when she was glassed at a nightclub.
Glassing victim
The 19-year-old needed 30 stitches to her face, neck and shoulders.
She told how she was cornered in the toilets by a gang of women who hit her several times with a broken glass.
Doctors said I was lucky not to lose my eye.’
[/quote]
So why are there more violent crimes in the US then? Your argument holds no water. If you were right there would be no violent crime in the US. This is not the case therefore there must be other factors at play.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Check out two of todays batch of knifing crimes from Europe.
A father stabbed his estranged wife to death in a ‘frenzied attack’ after discovering she had changed her Facebook status to ‘single’.
Edward Richardson, 41, was high on a cocktail of cocaine and alcohol when he smashed his way into her parents’ home and used a carving knife to kill 26-year-old Sarah Richardson as she lay in bed.
The carpenter stabbed his wife with such force he shattered her ribs. She also suffered puncture wounds to her liver and a slashed aorta.
Richardson was yesterday jailed for life after a jury took less than three hours to convict him of murder at Stafford Crown Court.
Judge Simon Tonking ordered Richardson, of Biddulph, Stoke-on-Trent, to serve at least 18 years.
Or how about a massacre?
At least three dead, including two children, in knife massacre at crèche dubbed ‘Belgium’s Dunblane’
A psychiatric patient stabbed to death a woman and two children under the age of three in a horrifying attack at a crèche in Belgium today.
At least 10 other children and two adults are said to have been injured when the knifeman ran wild in the nursery in a small town 20 miles west of Brussels.
The man - who was smeared with Apache-style black and white face paint - burst into the school before 10am.
[/quote]
For the first case, how would a gun have helped a woman who was asleep in bed defend herself?
For the second case, you can own a licensed gun in Belgium and there are a large number of illegal guns in circulation so what is your argument again? Oh that’s right, you don’t have one, you just cut and paste random news stories.
Perhaps you would have liked to see a shootout in a creche?
[quote]Sifu wrote:
ephrem wrote:
tom63 wrote:
…you’re right, it’s so much better to be an innocent victim of some stupid drive-by shooting, or to be shot by police for drawing your wallet…
THOSE THINGS HAPPEN SO MUCH LESS THAN AN INNOCENT PROTECTING THEMSELVES OR OTHERS, now go back to picking tulips.
…but how often is someone glassed?
In Britain they have a hundred a week. In the US I wouldn’t know, because it is so rare. Usually here if a bottle does get used as a weapon it is usually used to hit someone over the head up in the hairline.
How often is an innocent bystander shot, and how many people are deemed “accidental deaths” by police?
While it sometimes does happen that some innocent bystander gets caught up in violence, it is not that common of an occurrence. It certainly is nowhere near the number of people who are directly targeted for acts of violence and therefore have a need to defend themselves.
[/quote]
You can’t look at glassing in the US in isolation to compare with the UK you need to look at acts of violence which are higher in the US totally going against your argument.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
tom63 wrote:
Yep, but 135 gr, 115gr, 125 gr WOULD ALSO WORK imo.
Not nearly as satisfactorily.
CCI-Speer 200-grain “flying ashtray” for the win.[/quote]
I would agree, but shot placement is important. also, some loads just shoot better than others. Of course the 200 gr 45acp corbon load shot very well from my 45s.
I’d like to point out that a lot of this arguing is plain stupid. CB wants to argue, and it seems so does Sifu. I think time would be better spent in going out and contributing to the local gun dealer’s economy on us gun guy’s hands.
CB can go read a book.
What do you think is more productive, buying some more 50 caliber 750 rounds, a box of 661 gr Barrett, a box of Hornady 300 Weatherby magnum 150 gr hunting rounds, a new holster and a Kimber Grand Raptor 45.
Seriously, you fellows are spending a lot of time arguing with a Brit? He doesn’t live in our country, will not decide in any firearm laws, and I seriously doubt will ever reject his Euro weenie status.
[quote]tom63 wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
tom63 wrote:
Yep, but 135 gr, 115gr, 125 gr WOULD ALSO WORK imo.
Not nearly as satisfactorily.
CCI-Speer 200-grain “flying ashtray” for the win.
I would agree, but shot placement is important. also, some loads just shoot better than others. Of course the 200 gr 45acp corbon load shot very well from my 45s.
I’d like to point out that a lot of this arguing is plain stupid. CB wants to argue, and it seems so does Sifu. I think time would be better spent in going out and contributing to the local gun dealer’s economy on us gun guy’s hands.
CB can go read a book.
What do you think is more productive, buying some more 50 caliber 750 rounds, a box of 661 gr Barrett, a box of Hornady 300 Weatherby magnum 150 gr hunting rounds, a new holster and a Kimber Grand Raptor 45.
Seriously, you fellows are spending a lot of time arguing with a Brit? He doesn’t live in our country, will not decide in any firearm laws, and I seriously doubt will ever reject his Euro weenie status.
[/quote]
Tom, buy some ammo. We live in a nation with a much too high gun to ammo/part ratio.
mike
[quote]tom63 wrote:
What do you think is more productive, buying some more 50 caliber 750 rounds, a box of 661 gr Barrett, a box of Hornady 300 Weatherby magnum 150 gr hunting rounds, a new holster and a Kimber Grand Raptor 45.
[/quote]
Let’s see if I understand you correctly: you have an unspecified amount of cash (I’m guessing about 1200 dollars, if a Grand Raptor is among the choices), and want to invest it effectively. Correct?
The Kimber Raptor is a magnificent weapon. If I had no sidearm in .45 caliber, I would buy one. However, if you already have a number of handguns, another one probably isn’t going to make you more effective. Not even with a new holster.
1200 dollars will buy about 240 Barrett 661-grain FMJ rounds, or about 150 Summit 750-grain AMAX rounds.
It will buy 600 rounds of Hornady 300 Magnum.
I’d go with 100 rounds of the AMAX 50 cal ($800), and 200 rounds of 300 Magnum.
If the fecal matter should ever truly hit the ventilator, you’ll be happier to have bought more rifle ammunition than to have bought another pistol and a new holster.
Just my four rounds of .22 LR (two cents, at present exchange rates).
Dammit Mike!
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
tom63 wrote:
What do you think is more productive, buying some more 50 caliber 750 rounds, a box of 661 gr Barrett, a box of Hornady 300 Weatherby magnum 150 gr hunting rounds, a new holster and a Kimber Grand Raptor 45.
Let’s see if I understand you correctly: you have an unspecified amount of cash (I’m guessing about 1200 dollars, if a Grand Raptor is among the choices), and want to invest it effectively. Correct?
The Kimber Raptor is a magnificent weapon. If I had no sidearm in .45 caliber, I would buy one. However, if you already have a number of handguns, another one probably isn’t going to make you more effective. Not even with a new holster.
1200 dollars will buy about 240 Barrett 661-grain FMJ rounds, or about 150 Summit 750-grain AMAX rounds.
It will buy 600 rounds of Hornady 300 Magnum.
I’d go with 100 rounds of the AMAX 50 cal ($800), and 200 rounds of 300 Magnum.
If the fecal matter should ever truly hit the ventilator, you’ll be happier to have bought more rifle ammunition than to have bought another pistol and a new holster.
Just my four rounds of .22 LR (two cents, at present exchange rates).
[/quote]
As insurance for TEOTWAWKI, I’m stocking up on all common rifle and handgun calibers. A box of ammo is going to be worth more than paper money.
[quote]Loose Tool wrote:
As insurance for TEOTWAWKI, I’m stocking up on all common rifle and handgun calibers. A box of ammo is going to be worth more than paper money.
[/quote]
If you haven’t already, read Col. Cooper’s classic article “Ballistic Wampum.” It gives good advice on, shall we say, proper asset allocation.
The Colonel wrote the following in January 1994, but he could have written it in January 2009 and it would remain just as true. Just substitute the words “the election of Barack Obama” for “the passage of the Brady Bill”.
[i]"The run on arms and ammunition has caused shortages here and there throughout the country. In my opinion this phenomenon is a direct result of the passage of the Brady Bill. As everybody knows, that bill will do nothing about anything, but it does indicate that the hoplophobes now feel that they are free to go ahead with other and more ruinous action.
I have long preached that one should never be caught short in his personal armament, either in regard to the weapons or the ammunition. Keep up your supply, and do not neglect the 22 rimfire, which may well turn into the “ballistic wampum” I have spoken of the past.
If you have any loading equipment, stock primers, which may constitute the weakest link in the chain."[/i]
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
tom63 wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Blacksnake wrote:
Sifu wrote:
…you’re right, it’s so much better to be an innocent victim of some stupid drive-by shooting, or to be shot by police for drawing your wallet…
THOSE THINGS HAPPEN SO MUCH LESS THAN AN INNOCENT PROTECTING THEMSELVES OR OTHERS, now go back to picking tulips.
Not according to every study that I have every seen.[/quote]
So you admit that you have not studied any of the information we have provided you with. Like gunfacts. You are a jackass.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Actually the data you quoted on rape was from 1998 so not exactly up to date. I did notice the age of the data I just couldn’t find anything more recent.
I agree with you that any data like this will be skewed based on the sampling method, then whatever the agenda of the group who is presenting the data, that is the slant you will see.
The data from nation master that I quoted on Australia was claimed to be the most up to date figures. The only numerical date I could find was for it was 2002. But it is still more recent than 1998.
The reliability of data collection can vary drastically. One thing I will say for the reliability of US figures over UK figures is this. In the US the FBI crime figures considered to be the most authoritative. Because their figures are used by both the Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches there is a lot less room for politicization of the figures.
In the UK where there isn’t a separation of powers the statistics are being produced by the party in charge of the government. So there has been a lot of politicization because these figures reflect upon their job performance. There have been a number of news articles and scandals regarding this subject in the British press recently.
We have already been over separation of powers, don’t embarass yourself again.
The figures are politicised in both countries.[/quote]
No. In Britain they are politicized because there is very little separation of power. In the US the separation of powers allows for independent scrutiny between the three branches of government. In the US we have congressional oversight of the President. Up until Tuesday the Congress and Presidency were run by two different parties.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Where is your evidence for this spike in gun crime since 1997?
Are you serious? Is this a joke? Do you even follow the news in the UK?
It is a well established fact that the number of gun crimes in the UK doubled between 1997 and 2002. Based upon the Labour governments own figures. Figures which have proven to be deliberately manipulated to make the crime rate lower than it really is. I just posted several news articles yesterday and others have posted the stats.
So fuck you. I am not your bitch. Do it yourself. I am not going to waste my time google searching to prove something that you know damn well is true. Provided of course that you actually follow the news in the UK.
You really are quite dense if you cannot see that the figures from 1997 onwards follow the trend that was set before 1997.
As a side note given that there were a number of new things that could be considered gun crime after 1997 and in susbsequent law changes, for instance crimes involving replica guns, the figures are skewed. The reports you refer to yesterday when they are talking about unreported gun crime they are mainly talking about someone being aware that someone has a gun. The report states that only in a very few of the cases to which they are referring was a shot even fired.
From the time firearms were introduced to Britain up until 1997 is about 600 years give or take. So guncrime took 600 years to reach the levels they were at in 1997. By 2002 they had doubled. Five years to double a level that had taken 600 years to reach is a spike.
Look up incremental increases and you might learn something. Did you pass maths at school? If so, how? [/quote]
The incremental increases have been continuous for years in the UK. While in the US the trend been continuously downwards since 1994. It is obvious that what the UK is doing is not working, while what the US is doing is working.
You are a real piece of work. It is a real shame what has happened to Britain because it used to be a nice safe country. The country has been ruined because of assholes like you. You will doggedly cling to your dogma no matter what happens.
You Gaurdianistas so hard headed. Several of us have provided you with information that supports what we are saying but you just ignore it.
The number of homicides, which also includes infanticide, has increased by five per cent in the last decade. meaning more than two people a day are now unlawfully killed.
Around a third are killed with a knife or sharp weapon.
The Home Office figures will also show there are the equivalent of 27 gun crimes every day, after the menace of firearms almost doubled since Labour took power.
Separate quarterly statistics are expected to show a rise in the most serious violent offences after it emerged last year that some police forces had been miscounting.
Shadow Home Secretary Dominic Grieve said: "These statistics betray a serious failure by Labour to tackle violent crime.
[quote]
Firstly the UK murder rate and manslaughter rate is only about half the US. Most importantly the US homicide figures are calculated by counting all unlawful deaths as a homicide. In the UK an unlawfully dead body is not recorded as a murder until after a suspect has been arrested, tried and convicted for murder.
The US method of accounting for dead bodies is intended to produce accurate statistics. The British method is intended to make the murder rate appear much lower than it really is. Because a dead body at a British morgue is only considered to be a murder victim after someone has been caught tried and convicted of murder.
So the true British figures are higher than the government admits. But going by the British governments figures the US murder rate is not triple the UK’s.
Over the last 12 years when the UK murder rate has steadily been increasing, the US murder rate has steadily been decreasing. At the beginning of this 12 year era the UK inflicted draconian gun control laws. While the US was repealing gun control laws and introducing shall issue CCW’s.
There is a stark contrast in the direction the two countries have been headed for the last 12 years. That proves what I am saying.
no it doesn’t. If you were right, the crime figures including shootings in the UK would be significantly higher than in the US. They are not, therefore you are wrong. Again! [/quote]
Bullshit. The US and the UK are not the same country. We have different cultures, history and people. If Britain became the 51st state tomorrow and adopted the American constitution and laws there would still be differences. Even with the 50 states we have now there are big differences from one state to another.
You are deliberately ignoring the direction that crime has been going in Britain which is up. So you shouldn’t be so smug. Because Britain is in a heavy recession right now and on the verge of going into a depression. Things could get very ugly, there very quickly.
One thing is certain, this time next year Britain will have a higher murder rate than it does now. It went up all through the economic boom of the last 11 years. Now the economy is going into the crapper things are going to get worse. This time next year Britain could have a higher murder rate than the US.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Blacksnake wrote:
Sifu wrote:
So why are there more violent crimes in the US then? Your argument holds no water. If you were right there would be no violent crime in the US. This is not the case therefore there must be other factors at play.[/quote]
Because we are two different countries with vastly different histories. And we have different laws and resources. Only an idiot would expect these two countries to be identical.
In the US crime rates vary from state to state and within the states there can be huge variances from one community to the next.
There are huge variances amongst ethnic groups. African Americans are 7 times more likely to be murdered than whites and their killer is most likely to be another African American. All you have done through the last 20 pages of this thread is point at the results of Black on Black crime. I don’t know how to be any more blunt about this.
The whole basis of your flawed argument has been to point out the results of a historical legacy that involves 400 years of slavery with all it’s terrible abuses followed by 100 years of Jim Crow and all of it’s terrible abuses.
Britain hasn’t had millions of former slaves packed into ghettos where peoples are problems compounded. There is no community in Britain that has endured that horrific and sustained of an assault. An assault that was deliberately intended to do severe damage and it has.
%50 of Americas murder victims are African American. Without them the violent crime rates between Britain and the US would be just about the same.
In 2006 ?-
* Per every 1,000 persons in that racial group, 32 blacks, 23 whites and 18 persons of other races sustained a violent crime.
* Black, white, and other races experienced one per 1,000 person rates of rape/sexual assault.
According to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports, in 2006 about 50% off murder victims were black, 47% were white, and 3% were Asians, Pacific Islander, and Native Americans.