[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Or perhaps it is a result of Britain having very permissive attitudes toward violent crime. Here is a good example of just how permissive the British are when it comes to violent crime.
A schoolgirl who was gang-raped and then doused with caustic soda has told of her anguish at being unable to forgive her attackers.
Permissive attitudes don’t enter into it. It is entirely the result of the public having unrestricted access to caustic soda. The British must impose a strict ban on caustic soda, to prevent this sort of tragedy from re-occurring.
You really have problems with anything other than a direct ABC line don’t you. Do you work in manufacturing by any chance.
My comments about the type of glass used in pubs was that if you could change the type of glass and there was a benefit if the cost of that change was minimal (especially when weighed up against the PR win that could go alongside it.) then you should change that glass. [/quote]
The British were trying to develop glass that couldn’t be used for glassing twenty years ago. They obviously still have done it.
Varqanir was sarcastically imitating your your reasoning. In America there are a lot of bars that serve in glasses without people getting glassed. Americans don’t readily escalate to using sharp objects like the British do, because they know it could lead to something worse, like someone retaliating with a gun.
Of course another option that we used to use is serving out of disposable plastic. We never let glass across our bar. A lot of places do that if they expect a particularly lively crowd.
You like to go to great lengths to try and misconstrue or otherwise warp what we are writing into ridiculous bullshit. You just will not be reasoned with will you?
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
A lot of this problem could be resolved by changing the type of glass that is used in pubs. When I worked as a barman in Mcr 13 years ago there was lots of talk about it but at the end of the day, the Breweries wouldn’t swallow the cost and claimed that their customers wouldn’t accept the hike either.
Blame the brewers for what the louts do with their glassware?
Even better. Blame the glassware.
You guys think in such a linear way don’t you.
I am not blaming the brewers or the glassware, there are a number of underlying causes for loutish behaviour and we should all work to minimise them but the fact remains that people will go out, get drunk and pick a fight (all over the world.) They will then use whatever weapon is available to fight with. Different countries have different cultural attachments to weapons. In the UK, headbutting and glassing are two such examples. In the US guns are an example.
Possibly this is because in the US everyone is sipping girly cocktails and packing heat, whereas in Europe they are quaffing flaggons of ale and don’t have ready access to firearms.
Or perhaps it is a result of Britain having very permissive attitudes toward violent crime. Here is a good example of just how permissive the British are when it comes to violent crime.
A schoolgirl who was gang-raped and then doused with caustic soda has told of her anguish at being unable to forgive her attackers.
As three of them were jailed for a total of 23 years yesterday, the teenager, who is scarred for life, told of her struggle to adhere to her family’s belief in compassion.
The girl, 15 at the time but with a mental age of nine, was repeatedly raped by a gang of youths.
They poured caustic soda over her, leaving her with skin peeling off her face and chest and screaming in agony as they ran away laughing.
Yesterday Jamaican-born Rogel McMorris, 18, of Stockwell, was locked up for nine years after being found guilty of rape and grievous bodily harm. His immigration status is being investigated.
Angolan immigrant Hector Muaimba, 20, of Walthamstow, was given an eight-year sentence for rape and robbery and Jason Brew, 19, of Tottenham, was sentenced to six years for rape. They will serve their sentences in a youth offenders’ institution.
The gang pounced in Tottenham, North London, on January 9 last year after the girl had arranged to meet another man.
One of the alleged attackers was Steven Bigby, 22, who was stabbed to death in Oxford Street, London in May last year.
He had been charged with the rape and freed on bail, only to be murdered in a gang fight outside a McDonald’s store. Police remain certain he was one of the ringleaders of the attack.
The trio filmed themselves gang-raping the girl, laughing as they used their mobile phones to record her suffering.
They had hoped the caustic soda - a powerful corrosive - would destroy forensic evidence.
As she writhed in agony, they poured water on her, intensifying the burning.
The alarm was raised by a neighbour, who heard her ‘frantic’ cries and found her covered with raw patches on her face and body.
A year on, the girl still has scarring to 50 per cent of her body. She is unable to control her temperature and will need extensive surgery for years to come.
Judge Shaun Lyons said her life had been left in ‘ruins’.
Last night her uncle said: 'We know the sentence imposed on the perpetrators of this hideous crime will not bring sufficient justice and healing.
If they were subject to American justice they would have been charged with a multiple offenses and put away for a long time. But in Britain all they get is a slap on the wrist.
The example you have just given shows that several people were convicted of the crime, the gang leader wasn’t but that is hardly suprising because he is dead. The sentences for these guys were in line with what they would have recieved in the US.
Statistics show more offenders receiving jail terms
30 January 2007
New sentencing figures show a sharp rise in the number of offenders sent to prison and an increase in the average length of sentences.
Courts are sentencing more offenders to prison than ever before, as use of imprisonment as punishment has increased by more than 25% over the last 10 years, according to Sentencing Statistics 2005 .
The figures reflect the new sentences that came into effect in April 2005 following the Criminal Justice Act 2003, including indeterminate public protection sentences for dangerous offenders, and new community orders for less serious crimes.
Here’s some more reading:
Sentencing for rape varies depending on circumstances and locale. However, Department of Justice (DOJ) reports this:
The average sentence for criminals convicted of rape in the United States (and released in 1992) is 117 months. The average time served is 65 months, which equates to 56 percent of the actual sentence served. For crimes of sexual assault, the average sentence is 72 months, and the average time served is 35 months, equating to 49 percent of time served. (Greenfeld, Lawrence A., 1995, “Prison Sentences and Time Served for Violence,” page 1, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, Washington, D.C.)
I thought it was only in the UK that sentences were reduced due to good behaviour…
You are quoting figures for all rapes combined and averaged.
A class A felony of 1st degree criminal sexual assault carries a max penalty of life in prison. 2nd and 3rd degree carries a penalty of 15 years. That was a 1st degree sexual assault.
Kidnapping-child enticement carries a life sentence.
Placing an offensive or injurious substance causing serious impairment. Life sentence.
Then there is the points system they use to calculate severity of an offense against a person. They score high points for the use of a chemical, the injuries inflicted and the rape.
Aggravated use of a weapon (OV1) 20 points,
Lethal potential of a weapon (OV2) 15 points
Degree of physical injury to a victim (OV3) 25 points
Degree of psychological injury to a victim (OV4) 10 points
Intent to kill or injure (OV6) 25 points
Aggravated physical abuse (OV7) 50 points For sadism or torture
Victim asportation or captivity (OV8) 15 points
Exploitation of victims vulnerability. (OV10) 15 points
predatory conduct.
Criminal sexual penetration. (OV11) 50 points
Number of contemporaneous felonious criminal acts. (OV12) 25 points
As you can see they scored high on a lot of aggravating factors for multiple felonies, several of which they could receive life in prison for.
Also I didn’t see anything for the filming of the rape of a 15 year old in the state guidelines. So I will assume that they would have been charged separately under federal charges for production of child pornography. So that is another set of charges they could have been charged and punished for.
The bottom line is in an American court they would have been very lucky to get anything less than 15 years and they very likely would have gotten life. [/quote]
They would have got 15 years and served 7 similar to the UK. Don’t get me wrong, this case was sick and had they been locked up and the key thrown away I personally would not be complaining too loudly.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
The British were trying to develop glass that couldn’t be used for glassing twenty years ago. They obviously still have done it.
[/quote]
read my post, the glass was available 15 years ago and is in use in some places now.
Which is exactly what happens, hence so many more people shot in the US than in the UK. Good to see we agree on this as you have repeatedly denied that it is true even though you have quoted the numbers yourself.
Which is exactly what happens in the UK, a lot of the more rowdy pubs when there is football or boxing on or if lots of people will be drinking outside will only serve in plastic. I hate drinking beer out of a plastic glass though. Also means you spill it when you try to carry 5 pints.
[quote]
You like to go to great lengths to try and misconstrue or otherwise warp what we are writing into ridiculous bullshit. You just will not be reasoned with will you?[/quote]
no, I just point out what bullshit you are writing
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
For rainman and the various other people on the Justin Eilers thread who have a real hard time understanding a basic point.
In an ideal world everyone should be allowed to do whatever they like. In theory, Anarchy is the best political system.
Problem is, that doesn’t seem to work in practice. If there had been no guns in Justin Eiler’s murderer’s houes, there is a good likelihood that no-one would have died. the root cause of the problem was drink and aggression, the gun turned a bad situation into a nightmare.
I would suggest that the gun laws in the US have nothing to do with people being able to protect themselves and are more to do with a small but influential group of people who use scare tactics to promote their own selfish agenda.
Your average NRA member is not affected by the terrible problems that easy access to guns cause in underprivilaged communities in the US and what’s more, they couldn’t care less.
OK, lets see if people can respond to this without the need to resort to name calling, offensive language or straw man arguments.[/quote]
You need to check your fact bro, the majority of criminal gun violence occurs by people who did not buy their guns legally.
The laws are already in effect to stop the majority of gun violence. The law is just not enforced.
It is crazy to be screaming that we need more gun laws when we aren’t enforcing the one’s we already have.
I thought it was only in the UK that sentences were reduced due to good behaviour…
You are quoting figures for all rapes combined and averaged.
A class A felony of 1st degree criminal sexual assault carries a max penalty of life in prison. 2nd and 3rd degree carries a penalty of 15 years. That was a 1st degree sexual assault.
Kidnapping-child enticement carries a life sentence.
Placing an offensive or injurious substance causing serious impairment. Life sentence.
Then there is the points system they use to calculate severity of an offense against a person. They score high points for the use of a chemical, the injuries inflicted and the rape.
Aggravated use of a weapon (OV1) 20 points,
Lethal potential of a weapon (OV2) 15 points
Degree of physical injury to a victim (OV3) 25 points
Degree of psychological injury to a victim (OV4) 10 points
Intent to kill or injure (OV6) 25 points
Aggravated physical abuse (OV7) 50 points For sadism or torture
Victim asportation or captivity (OV8) 15 points
Exploitation of victims vulnerability. (OV10) 15 points
predatory conduct.
Criminal sexual penetration. (OV11) 50 points
Number of contemporaneous felonious criminal acts. (OV12) 25 points
As you can see they scored high on a lot of aggravating factors for multiple felonies, several of which they could receive life in prison for.
Also I didn’t see anything for the filming of the rape of a 15 year old in the state guidelines. So I will assume that they would have been charged separately under federal charges for production of child pornography. So that is another set of charges they could have been charged and punished for.
The bottom line is in an American court they would have been very lucky to get anything less than 15 years and they very likely would have gotten life.
They would have got 15 years and served 7 similar to the UK. Don’t get me wrong, this case was sick and had they been locked up and the key thrown away I personally would not be complaining too loudly.[/quote]
Obviously you didn’t read through the point system PDF. Because OV6 Intent to kill or injure (OV6) awards 100 points for first degree premeditated murder which carries a mandatory life sentence with no chance of parole.
Those guys would have been over 250 points for multiple offenses that each had a max sentence of life. It would have been a miracle for them to get 15 years.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
The British were trying to develop glass that couldn’t be used for glassing twenty years ago. They obviously still have done it.
read my post, the glass was available 15 years ago and is in use in some places now.
Varqanir was sarcastically imitating your your reasoning. In America there are a lot of bars that serve in glasses without people getting glassed. Americans don’t readily escalate to using sharp objects like the British do, because they know it could lead to something worse, like someone retaliating with a gun.
Which is exactly what happens, hence so many more people shot in the US than in the UK. Good to see we agree on this as you have repeatedly denied that it is true even though you have quoted the numbers yourself. [/quote]
No that is not what happens here in the US. Because here people know not to just fly off the handle like the British do.
In Britain people think nothing of smashing a bottle in someones face because they know that there is very little chance they will get shot for it and they also know that if they possibly do get arrested they will only get a slap on the wrist.
[quote]
Of course another option that we used to use is serving out of disposable plastic. We never let glass across our bar. A lot of places do that if they expect a particularly lively crowd.
Which is exactly what happens in the UK, a lot of the more rowdy pubs when there is football or boxing on or if lots of people will be drinking outside will only serve in plastic. I hate drinking beer out of a plastic glass though. Also means you spill it when you try to carry 5 pints.
You like to go to great lengths to try and misconstrue or otherwise warp what we are writing into ridiculous bullshit. You just will not be reasoned with will you?
no, I just point out what bullshit you are writing :-)[/quote]
If I am writing bullshit why is crime in Britain rising so quickly that the government has stopped releasing crime figures while here in the US crime is going down? This is from todays paper.
Home Office accused of covering up crime rise
The Home Office has been accused of covering up its failure to get to grip with serious crime by suspending publication of statistics.
Last Updated: 7:42PM GMT 22 Jan 2009
The figure for the level of serious violent offences was excluded from the quarterly crime statistics after it earlier emerged that 18 police forces had been mis-reporting some crimes.
The process of correcting the errors pushed up the level of the most serious offences by 22 per cent.
Ministers, at the suggestion of the National Statistician, have now asked the police inspectorate to examine how all 43 forces in England and Wales collect their data and have kept the break down out of official data in the meantime.
But Dr Marian FitzGerald, a criminologist at the University of Kent, said the Government had “endlessly interfered” with the way police record crime and now “chickens are coming home to roost”.
She added: "The public is concerned about serious violence and the Government itself has been in serious denial for a long time about the fact the underlying level of serious violent crime in this country has been going up.
"They have suddenly realised they have got a problem of violence and, whoops, the way in which they have been interfering with the police recording figures has suddenly looked as though it is going to exaggerate that and, or course, they cannot afford to have it.
‘That is why they are withdrawing the figures’.
But Ian Johnston, chief constable of British Transport Police, played down the significance of the omission.
“This does not affect the overall violent crime figure. The overall violent crime figure remains robust. What this does do is affect a small subset - a very important one indeed - that represents about two per cent of overall violent crime,” he said.
Or how about this. It does come to some erroneous conclusions in order to avoid putting blame where it should placed, upon Britain’s unfair gun control laws. But it does agree with what I have been saying.
That Britain has a growing problem with gangs, guns and witness intimidation. Because of the gun control laws. But the British stubbornly refuse to admit that it is not a complicated issue it is a self inflicted wound.
Britain’s gun crime ‘worse than reported’
Much of the gun crime on Britain?s streets goes unreported, it was claimed today.
Last Updated: 7:40AM BST 28 Jun 2008
A study of data on firearms-related offences by the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies (CCJS) said many victims were reluctant to alert police.
Crimes missing from the official statistics may even include incidents where guns were fired, but which did not lead to injuries, the paper said.
The CCJS, which is based at King?s College, London, called on ministers to focus on social and economic solutions to gun crime.
Its report said: ?Given the frequently noted reluctance (often underpinned by fear of reprisals) of many gun crime-affected communities to provide evidence to the police, and the strong 'no grassing?
conventions in gang cultures, it is likely that much gun crime - especially incidents involving only intimidation, or firearms discharges resulting in either no injuries or only minor injuries - goes unreported.?
The Government?s policy of introducing tough mandatory sentences may not prove an effective way of tackling gun crime, the report warned.
?Contrary to its commitment to be 'tough on crime?.. the Government?s criminal justice policy has been characterised by a reluctance to acknowledge the causal relation between income inequality and violent crime,? it said.
Report author Peter Squires, Professor of Criminology and Public Policy at Brighton University, said: ?This report examines what we do and don?t know about gun crime to establish a basis from which we can start asking the right questions and developing effective policies.
?It demonstrates that the use of guns is a product of conflict and violence in deprived and excluded communities and once we understand that we can start addressing causes and not just symptoms,? he said.
The CCJS?s research director Roger Grimshaw said: ?Though few people are seriously injured by the criminal use of firearms, many more are frightened.
?Myth and fantasy surround offences that feature a bewildering array of both fake and real guns.
?Because gun crime is indeed a potent cause of fear, it needs to be far better understood, otherwise we will all be hoodwinked into accepting calls for panic measures instead of more effective long-term solutions.?
Home Office minister Vernon Coaker said: ?Although incidents of gun crime are rare, it is an issue that is rightly of concern to people, which is why the Government has prioritised tackling gun-related gang violence.
?Gun crime is a complex issue and we recognise that an enforcement approach alone is not the most effective way to tackle the problem.
?That is why, building on the work of the Tackling Gangs Action Programme, we have dedicated a further £5 million to build our combined approach of increasing educational initiatives like the Safer Schools Partnerships, search arches in schools, mediation work between rival gangs, tough enforcement activity and greater engagement with parents who have a key role to play in steering their children away from gun related gang violence.?
The number of criminals dealt with by “slap on the wrist” punishments outside court has overtaken convictions for the first time, figures showed yesterday.
Murder and manslaughter rate increasing
The rate of murder and manslaughter is growing under Labour, with almost 800 victims last year, official figures will show next week.
The number of homicides, which also includes infanticide, has increased by five per cent in the last decade. meaning more than two people a day are now unlawfully killed.
Around a third are killed with a knife or sharp weapon.
The Home Office figures will also show there are the equivalent of 27 gun crimes every day, after the menace of firearms almost doubled since Labour took power.
Separate quarterly statistics are expected to show a rise in the most serious violent offences after it emerged last year that some police forces had been miscounting.
Shadow Home Secretary Dominic Grieve said: "These statistics betray a serious failure by Labour to tackle violent crime.
“This is not just because Labour failed to put police on the streets and enforce tough and effective penalties. It is also because they did not address the underling causes of violent crime - such as drug abuse and family breakdown.”
An annual profile on homicide offences, to be published on Thursday, will show there were 784 victims of murder, manslaughter and infanticide in England and Wales in 2007/08.
That is a three per cent increase on the 759 offences the year before and up five per cent on the 748 committed in 1997/98.
It is estimated at least one in three were the result of being stabbed with a sharp instrument, such as a knife.
The document will also show there were over 9,800 crimes involving a firearm over the same period - the equivalent of 27 a day and up two per cent on the previous year.
Gun crime has soared by 88 per cent on the 5,209 offences committed in 1998/99.
Quarterly crime statistics, to be published at the same time, are expected to show a sharp rise in the number of crimes classed as the most serious violence.
It emerged in October that some police forces had been including grievous bodily harm with intent, but where no one was hurt, in a lower category of violence, when it should be classed alongside the most serious offences.
The readjustment led to a 22 per cent rise in offences in the category and a similar effect is expected in the latest statistics, suggesting the true level of serious violence on our streets has been underplayed.
Acquisitive crimes, such as theft, fraud and burglary, may also rise after the Government warned it expects some offences to increase as the economy descends in to a recession.
A Home Office spokeswoman said: "Homicide remains thankfully rare but every incident is a tragedy. Last year’s statistics showed that the risk of being a victim of homicide was extremely low ? 13.7 per million population.
“Most victims know their killer which is why as well as taking targeted action against serious violence on our streets, we are also focusing on the less well- publicised problem of violence behind closed doors.”
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Also, going back to your rape stats showing the US having lower stats than Australia (just)
How do you account for this then?
REPORTS · The United States has the world's highest rape rate of the countries that publish such statistics. It's 4 times higher than Germany, 13 times higher than England, and 20 times higher than Japan.
· Only 16% of rapes and sexual assaults are reported to the police (Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. 1992)
· The rate of false reports of rape is approximately 2 - 3% which is no different than that for other crimes.
· One of every four rapes take place in a public area or in a parking garage.
RAPE
· 68% of rapes occur between the hours of 6 p.m. and 6 a.m.
· In 29% of rapes, the offender used a weapon.
· 55% of the number of rape/sexual assault victimizations in which self-protective measures were employed by the victim resulted in helping the situation. Self-protective measures hurt the situation in 10.5% of victimizations. In 17.2% of the incidents the result neither helped nor hurt the situation, and in 7.7% of the incidents the situation was both helped and hurt.
· In cases where self-protective measures by the victim were helpful, 42.5% avoided injury or greater injury, 37.6% escaped, and 11.1% of the time the offender was scared off.
VICTIMS
· 1 out of every 3 American women will be sexually assulted in her lifetime.
· 1 in 7 women will be raped by her husband.
· 83% of rape cases are ages 24 or under.
· 1 in 4 college women have either been raped or suffered attempted rape.
· 18% of women who reported being raped before age 18 said they were also raped after age 18. (Violence Against Women Survey, 1998)
· 75% of female rape victims require medical care after the attack.
· 1 out of 5 victims of sexual assault is male
· 2 out of 5 victims of child sexual abuse are male
· Most male rape victims are heterosexual
· Approximately 68% of rape victims knew their assailant. [Violence against Women. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994]
· Approximately 28% of victims are raped by husbands or boyfriends, 35% by acquaintances, and 5% by other relatives. [Violence against Women. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994]
· According to the Justice Department, one in two rape victims is under age 18; one in six is under age 12. [Child Rape Victims, 1992. U.S. Department of Justice.]
· Teens 16 to 19 were three and one-half times more likely than the general population to be victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assault. [National Crime Victimization Survey. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, 1996.]
PERPATRATOR
· 6 out of 10 sexual assaults occur in the home of the victim or the home of a friend, neighbor or relative. (Greenfeld, 1997)
· At least 45% of rapists were under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
· Most perpetrators of male rape are heterosexual
· 71% of the rapists were under the influence of drugs (inc. alcohol).
· 15% reported taking drugs less than 15 minutes prior to the rape.
· 21% premeditated the rape. 27% committed the rape while committing another crime.
· 16% were impulsive/spontaneous, "the victim was simply an easy available 'innocent bystander'".
· 7% were committed after an argument with the victim. 6% after sexual foreplay with the victim.
· 89% of the rapists described the victims as not being provocative, "The victims did not verbally provoke nor were sexually attractive to the attacker". Patterns of Behavior in Adolescent Rape by Vinogradov et al. in the American Journal of Orthopsychiatry 58(2) April 1988 pp 179-87.
· In rapes/sexual assaults involving strangers, weapons were known to be used in 20.3% of the incidents. Of these, 8.8% used a firearm (hand gun) and 11.5% used a knife. In rapes/sexual assaults involving nonstrangers, weapons were known to be used in 15% of the incidents. Of these, 4.2% used a firearm (hand gun); 5.4% used a knife or sharp object, and 2% used some other weapon.
· Of those rape/sexual assault victimizations using physical force, the offender was the first to use force in 87.1% of incidents. The victim was first to use force only 7.1% of the time
IMPACT
· 25 - 45% of rape survivors suffer from non-genital trauma, 19 - 22% suffer from genital trauma, up to 40% obtain STDs and 1 - 5% become pregnant as a result of the rape. There are an estimated 32,000 rape related pregnancies in the United States annually.
(Holmes, 1996) Sexual assault survivors' visits to their physicians increase by 18% the year of the assault, 56% the year after and 31% the second year after the assault. (Koss, 1993)
· Overall, rape has the highest annual victim cost of any crime. The annual victim costs are $127 billion (excluding child sex abuse cases).
This is followed by assault at $93 billion per year, murder (excluding arson and drunk driving) at $61 billion and child abuse at $56 billion per year (Miller, 1996).
· Less than half of those arrested for rape are convicted, 54% of all rape prosecutions end in either dismissal or acquittal. The conviction rate for those arrested for murder is 69% and all other felons is 54%.
(The Response to Rape: Detours on the Road to Equal Justice) 21% of convicted rapists are never sentenced to jail or prison time, and 24% receive time in local jail which means that they spend an average of less than 11 months behind bars (The Response to Rape: Detours on the Road to Equal Justice).
“Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. 1992” Was published in 1992. It is presently 2009. Your source is over 17 years old. Over that 17 years America has seen significant reductions in crime.
Also this is prior to the 1997 changes in firearms laws in the UK and Australia. In fact the most recent of these quoted sources is 1998. One of the sources is 1988. That is over 21 years ago.
I am at least quoting sources that are based upon the most recent statistics from this decade. Talk about digging up statistics to suit your position. You just seriously compromised your credibility on that one homeboy.
Rape in America: A Report to the Nation (Arlington, VA: National
Center for Victims of Crime and the Crime Victims Research and
Treatment Center, 1992) is based on two national studies of 4,008 adult
women and 370 rape crisis centers conducted by the National Center for
Victims of Crime and the Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center
at the Medical University of South Carolina.
There is a lot of room for error in a study like that. It is like the British crime survey, where they take a survey of several thousand people then through the use of mathematics they try to extrapolate their numbers into something that is supposed to represent the country as a whole.
[/quote]
Actually the data you quoted on rape was from 1998 so not exactly up to date. I did notice the age of the data I just couldn’t find anything more recent.
I agree with you that any data like this will be skewed based on the sampling method, then whatever the agenda of the group who is presenting the data, that is the slant you will see.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Honolulu Hawaii and Detroit Michigan are not small white towns. Honolulu has a little over 900,000 Detroit has 890,000. Detroit is %80 black and has 49 murders per 100,000 inhabitants.
Honolulu has very few blacks and most of them are middle class. The murder rate in Honolulu is 1 per 100,000. Which means that Honolulu has a lower rate than dozens of British cites with populations over 100,000.
Here are the rates for some British cities.
Think tank Reform ranked urban areas with populations of more than 100,000 using data on burglary, murder, rape, robbery, car and gun crime from police.
Nottingham also had the highest murder rate - with 5.21 crimes for every 100,000 population -
followed by St Helens, Merseyside, with 4.87, according to Reform.
London came 21st with 2.12.
Last year the US murder rate was 5.6 per 100,000 So Nottingham’s 5.21 is just a little bit below the US average.
So why if guns are such a deterant are the murder rates in the US almost triple those for the UK then. Surely this would be reversed were your argument to hold any water…
In the US the murder rate has been declining for years. It’s now 5.6 per 100,000. Despite all the hysterical paranoia from the gun control nuts as gun control laws were repealed the murder rate is going down. So we know your argument doesn’t hold water.
In the UK on the other hand murder rates are going up. Despite the use of creative accounting methods. ie A dead body that did not die through natural causes or accident but was made dead by the hand of another human being is not recorded as a murder victim until after someone is arrested tried and convicted of murder.
Gun crime is on the rise also. The big jump in gun crime started in 1997 right after the tightening of gun control. If gun control truly was the panacea you insist it is we should have seen a reduction in gun crime not an immediate and continuous increase.
The British example proves my case and disproves yours. Because for the last 12 years Britain has been experiencing rising violent crime while over the same period of time, America has been experiencing decreasing violent crime. [/quote]
Where is your evidence for this spike in gun crime since 1997? We have already seen a graph that shows a steady but incremental increase from the 19th century through to present with no evidence of this spike.
Also, if murder has been decreasing steadily for years but is still triple that of the UK, how does that show that guns prevent murder?
[quote]Sifu wrote:
AndyG wrote:
Ha ha ha ha ha! I’ve already told you not to bother Cockney. Sifu makes up his stats. He will discount yours while quoting his own froma gun lobbyist’s website.
Ha ha ha ha! It is quite funny that you have shown him to be a liar once again.
HA HA HA HA Andy why don’t you look at the dates on the information Cockney quoting. Some of that is over twenty years old. While the most damning one from 1992 is using estimates that are mathematically arrived at based upon a survey of 4008 women. None of the information he quoted is from before the turn of the century. [/quote]
To give a 2% confidence interval at a confidence level of 99% for a population of 150,000,000 (roughly the number of women in the US) you need a sample size of 4,160. Increasing the sample size significantly higher would not increase the accuracy of the data.
Seems along with knowing nothing about US political procedure, UK political procedure and UK nationality law you also struggle with statistics.
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
For rainman and the various other people on the Justin Eilers thread who have a real hard time understanding a basic point.
In an ideal world everyone should be allowed to do whatever they like. In theory, Anarchy is the best political system.
Problem is, that doesn’t seem to work in practice. If there had been no guns in Justin Eiler’s murderer’s houes, there is a good likelihood that no-one would have died. the root cause of the problem was drink and aggression, the gun turned a bad situation into a nightmare.
I would suggest that the gun laws in the US have nothing to do with people being able to protect themselves and are more to do with a small but influential group of people who use scare tactics to promote their own selfish agenda.
Your average NRA member is not affected by the terrible problems that easy access to guns cause in underprivilaged communities in the US and what’s more, they couldn’t care less.
OK, lets see if people can respond to this without the need to resort to name calling, offensive language or straw man arguments.
You need to check your fact bro, the majority of criminal gun violence occurs by people who did not buy their guns legally.
The laws are already in effect to stop the majority of gun violence. The law is just not enforced.
It is crazy to be screaming that we need more gun laws when we aren’t enforcing the one’s we already have.
[/quote]
I don’t think you need more gun laws, I have said that a few times. I really don’t think it would help the situation.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
In America we don’t have a big problem with glassing, because it is asking to get shot. If you went into a bar in Detroit and smashed a bottle in some sisters face you would be lucky to make it out of the parking lot alive. In Britain people do it with impunity because they no the risks are low and the punishments are meager. [/quote]
And you’d better not get caught by the Cops either, because the law takes a very dim view of this crime, classified as “mayhem”…The law will come after you full-force, and if it goes to a jury, get ready for some prison time, because you just provided the evidence to send you up the river: The mutilated victim’s face!. The Torts lawyers will sue, so forget any income over subsistence for the rest of your life…That is, if you make it out of prison alive, because mutilators are seen as little better than child molesters, (male or female is irrelevant,you are going to be someone’s Bitch, if you don’t get shanked dead or get your own face mutilated in short order) and if you do make it out, better watch you back, the word will be out on you…But this all depends on if you make it out alive (from Sifu’s example scenario)in the first place…
No, we don’t play that shit in the USA on any level, and I am disgusted to learn this trend has taken hold in UK nightlife. The only reason the UK still has a tourist industry is that this is basically unreported outside the UK…Few civilized people simply out for a drink would expose themselves to such a cowardly attack scenario, knowing it possible in advance, and that they are legally rendered helpless to defend against it(!). These “glasser” criminals are akin to Taliban scum, who throw caustics in schoolgirls faces for daring to get an education(!). They deserve the same as an atavistic Taliban terrorist too: 230 grains of copper-jacketed lead hollow-point between the runnin’ lights…
[quote]Blacksnake wrote:
Sifu wrote:
In America we don’t have a big problem with glassing, because it is asking to get shot. If you went into a bar in Detroit and smashed a bottle in some sisters face you would be lucky to make it out of the parking lot alive. In Britain people do it with impunity because they no the risks are low and the punishments are meager.
And you’d better not get caught by the Cops either, because the law takes a very dim view of this crime, classified as “mayhem”…The law will come after you full-force, and if it goes to a jury, get ready for some prison time, because you just provided the evidence to send you up the river: The mutilated victim’s face!. The Torts lawyers will sue, so forget any income over subsistence for the rest of your life…That is, if you make it out of prison alive, because mutilators are seen as little better than child molesters, (male or female is irrelevant,you are going to be someone’s Bitch, if you don’t get shanked dead or get your own face mutilated in short order) and if you do make it out, better watch you back, the word will be out on you…But this all depends on if you make it out alive (from Sifu’s example scenario)in the first place…
No, we don’t play that shit in the USA on any level, and I am disgusted to learn this trend has taken hold in UK nightlife. The only reason the UK still has a tourist industry is that this is basically unreported outside the UK…Few civilized people simply out for a drink would expose themselves to such a cowardly attack scenario, knowing it possible in advance, and that they are legally rendered helpless to defend against it(!). These “glasser” criminals are akin to Taliban scum, who throw caustics in schoolgirls faces for daring to get an education(!). They deserve the same as an atavistic Taliban terrorist too: 230 grains of copper-jacketed lead hollow-point between the runnin’ lights…
[/quote]
…you’re right, it’s so much better to be an innocent victim of some stupid drive-by shooting, or to be shot by police for drawing your wallet…
[quote]Blacksnake wrote:
Sifu wrote:
In America we don’t have a big problem with glassing, because it is asking to get shot. If you went into a bar in Detroit and smashed a bottle in some sisters face you would be lucky to make it out of the parking lot alive. In Britain people do it with impunity because they no the risks are low and the punishments are meager.
And you’d better not get caught by the Cops either, because the law takes a very dim view of this crime, classified as “mayhem”…The law will come after you full-force, and if it goes to a jury, get ready for some prison time, because you just provided the evidence to send you up the river: The mutilated victim’s face!. The Torts lawyers will sue, so forget any income over subsistence for the rest of your life…That is, if you make it out of prison alive, because mutilators are seen as little better than child molesters, (male or female is irrelevant,you are going to be someone’s Bitch, if you don’t get shanked dead or get your own face mutilated in short order) and if you do make it out, better watch you back, the word will be out on you…But this all depends on if you make it out alive (from Sifu’s example scenario)in the first place…
No, we don’t play that shit in the USA on any level, and I am disgusted to learn this trend has taken hold in UK nightlife. The only reason the UK still has a tourist industry is that this is basically unreported outside the UK…Few civilized people simply out for a drink would expose themselves to such a cowardly attack scenario, knowing it possible in advance, and that they are legally rendered helpless to defend against it(!). These “glasser” criminals are akin to Taliban scum, who throw caustics in schoolgirls faces for daring to get an education(!). They deserve the same as an atavistic Taliban terrorist too: 230 grains of copper-jacketed lead hollow-point between the runnin’ lights…
[/quote]
Yep, but 135 gr, 115gr, 125 gr WOULD ALSO WORK imo.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Blacksnake wrote:
Sifu wrote:
In America we don’t have a big problem with glassing, because it is asking to get shot. If you went into a bar in Detroit and smashed a bottle in some sisters face you would be lucky to make it out of the parking lot alive. In Britain people do it with impunity because they no the risks are low and the punishments are meager.
And you’d better not get caught by the Cops either, because the law takes a very dim view of this crime, classified as “mayhem”…The law will come after you full-force, and if it goes to a jury, get ready for some prison time, because you just provided the evidence to send you up the river: The mutilated victim’s face!. The Torts lawyers will sue, so forget any income over subsistence for the rest of your life…That is, if you make it out of prison alive, because mutilators are seen as little better than child molesters, (male or female is irrelevant,you are going to be someone’s Bitch, if you don’t get shanked dead or get your own face mutilated in short order) and if you do make it out, better watch you back, the word will be out on you…But this all depends on if you make it out alive (from Sifu’s example scenario)in the first place…
No, we don’t play that shit in the USA on any level, and I am disgusted to learn this trend has taken hold in UK nightlife. The only reason the UK still has a tourist industry is that this is basically unreported outside the UK…Few civilized people simply out for a drink would expose themselves to such a cowardly attack scenario, knowing it possible in advance, and that they are legally rendered helpless to defend against it(!). These “glasser” criminals are akin to Taliban scum, who throw caustics in schoolgirls faces for daring to get an education(!). They deserve the same as an atavistic Taliban terrorist too: 230 grains of copper-jacketed lead hollow-point between the runnin’ lights…
…you’re right, it’s so much better to be an innocent victim of some stupid drive-by shooting, or to be shot by police for drawing your wallet…
[/quote]
THOSE THINGS HAPPEN SO MUCH LESS THAN AN INNOCENT PROTECTING THEMSELVES OR OTHERS, now go back to picking tulips.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Actually the data you quoted on rape was from 1998 so not exactly up to date. I did notice the age of the data I just couldn’t find anything more recent.
I agree with you that any data like this will be skewed based on the sampling method, then whatever the agenda of the group who is presenting the data, that is the slant you will see.[/quote]
The data from nation master that I quoted on Australia was claimed to be the most up to date figures. The only numerical date I could find was for it was 2002. But it is still more recent than 1998.
The reliability of data collection can vary drastically. One thing I will say for the reliability of US figures over UK figures is this. In the US the FBI crime figures considered to be the most authoritative. Because their figures are used by both the Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches there is a lot less room for politicization of the figures.
In the UK where there isn’t a separation of powers the statistics are being produced by the party in charge of the government. So there has been a lot of politicization because these figures reflect upon their job performance. There have been a number of news articles and scandals regarding this subject in the British press recently.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Where is your evidence for this spike in gun crime since 1997? [/quote]
Are you serious? Is this a joke? Do you even follow the news in the UK?
It is a well established fact that the number of gun crimes in the UK doubled between 1997 and 2002. Based upon the Labour governments own figures. Figures which have proven to be deliberately manipulated to make the crime rate lower than it really is. I just posted several news articles yesterday and others have posted the stats.
So fuck you. I am not your bitch. Do it yourself. I am not going to waste my time google searching to prove something that you know damn well is true. Provided of course that you actually follow the news in the UK.
[quote]
We have already seen a graph that shows a steady but incremental increase from the 19th century through to present with no evidence of this spike. [/quote]
From the time firearms were introduced to Britain up until 1997 is about 600 years give or take. So guncrime took 600 years to reach the levels they were at in 1997. By 2002 they had doubled. Five years to double a level that had taken 600 years to reach is a spike.
[quote]
Also, if murder has been decreasing steadily for years but is still triple that of the UK, how does that show that guns prevent murder? [/quote]
Firstly the UK murder rate and manslaughter rate is only about half the US. Most importantly the US homicide figures are calculated by counting all unlawful deaths as a homicide. In the UK an unlawfully dead body is not recorded as a murder until after a suspect has been arrested, tried and convicted for murder.
The US method of accounting for dead bodies is intended to produce accurate statistics. The British method is intended to make the murder rate appear much lower than it really is. Because a dead body at a British morgue is only considered to be a murder victim after someone has been caught tried and convicted of murder.
So the true British figures are higher than the government admits. But going by the British governments figures the US murder rate is not triple the UK’s.
Over the last 12 years when the UK murder rate has steadily been increasing, the US murder rate has steadily been decreasing. At the beginning of this 12 year era the UK inflicted draconian gun control laws. While the US was repealing gun control laws and introducing shall issue CCW’s.
There is a stark contrast in the direction the two countries have been headed for the last 12 years. That proves what I am saying.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
AndyG wrote:
Ha ha ha ha ha! I’ve already told you not to bother Cockney. Sifu makes up his stats. He will discount yours while quoting his own froma gun lobbyist’s website.
Ha ha ha ha! It is quite funny that you have shown him to be a liar once again.
HA HA HA HA Andy why don’t you look at the dates on the information Cockney quoting. Some of that is over twenty years old. While the most damning one from 1992 is using estimates that are mathematically arrived at based upon a survey of 4008 women. None of the information he quoted is from before the turn of the century.
To give a 2% confidence interval at a confidence level of 99% for a population of 150,000,000 (roughly the number of women in the US) you need a sample size of 4,160. Increasing the sample size significantly higher would not increase the accuracy of the data.
Seems along with knowing nothing about US political procedure, UK political procedure and UK nationality law you also struggle with statistics.[/quote]
A couple of years ago the Lancet used a similar method to take a statistical sample from the worst areas of Iraq then they just used a formula based upon the entire countries population that gave them an estimated death toll from the Iraq invasion of 500,000 dead. Their estimate was quickly disproven and the Lancet became a laughing stock.
[quote]Blacksnake wrote:
Sifu wrote:
In America we don’t have a big problem with glassing, because it is asking to get shot. If you went into a bar in Detroit and smashed a bottle in some sisters face you would be lucky to make it out of the parking lot alive. In Britain people do it with impunity because they no the risks are low and the punishments are meager.
And you’d better not get caught by the Cops either, because the law takes a very dim view of this crime, classified as “mayhem”…The law will come after you full-force, and if it goes to a jury, get ready for some prison time, because you just provided the evidence to send you up the river: The mutilated victim’s face!. The Torts lawyers will sue, so forget any income over subsistence for the rest of your life…That is, if you make it out of prison alive, because mutilators are seen as little better than child molesters, (male or female is irrelevant,you are going to be someone’s Bitch, if you don’t get shanked dead or get your own face mutilated in short order) and if you do make it out, better watch you back, the word will be out on you…But this all depends on if you make it out alive (from Sifu’s example scenario)in the first place…
No, we don’t play that shit in the USA on any level, and I am disgusted to learn this trend has taken hold in UK nightlife. The only reason the UK still has a tourist industry is that this is basically unreported outside the UK…Few civilized people simply out for a drink would expose themselves to such a cowardly attack scenario, knowing it possible in advance, and that they are legally rendered helpless to defend against it(!). These “glasser” criminals are akin to Taliban scum, who throw caustics in schoolgirls faces for daring to get an education(!). They deserve the same as an atavistic Taliban terrorist too: 230 grains of copper-jacketed lead hollow-point between the runnin’ lights…
[/quote]
Thank you. I have been trying to get the point across to Cockney for a while that in the US violence has consequences. If you look back in the thread I provided a whole bunch of links for women who were glassed in nightclubs and pubs. The average sentences their attackers received were around 2 years. I’ll dig up the links for you.
Here look at this shit. In the UK they have 5,000 glassing’s a year. That is a hundred a week. Yet just because they don’t have as many shootings as the US the British have this fantasy that Britain is much much safer than the US.
All these glassing articles are young women. There are a couple of models, a singer one or two cosmetologists. They have had their lives ruined and their careers destroyed.
In Britain the average rate of young women being admitted to a hospital A&E for treatment of glassing wounds is one to two per week. For men the average is even higher.
A PRETTY hairdresser told yesterday how a glassing attack left her with such horrific facial scars she was forced to give up her job.
Louise Reeves, 21, needed more than 60 stitches and was almost blinded when Samantha Attrill slashed her with a broken bottle.
Before the nightclub attack she had been offered modelling work but her dreams of a career as a fashion model have also now been shattered.
Attrill, 23, was jailed for four years this week after a jury found her guilty of malicious wounding.
Research shows that 5,000 people a year fall victim to bottle and glass attacks in Britain, prompting calls for a full ban on all glass in pubs and clubs.
AN Exeter City Council worker who lied to police about being in a nightspot when a woman was left permanently scarred in a glass attack, said he was the victim of mistaken identity.
A glass was used in an attack on Christine Pearce, 23, in the Timepiece club, causing cuts to her face which required stitches, Exeter Crown Court heard. She had scarring near her nose and is now unable to wear contact lenses.
Girl, 14, nearly blinded by glass thugs at carnival
A MOTHER of two launched an unprovoked glass attack on a woman in a Newton Abbot pub, cutting open her head.
But a judge at Exeter Crown Court spared Catherine Regan, 37, from serving a prison sentence.
Recorder Michael Allen QC told Regan, of Greenway Road, Newton Abbot: "I have to strain to stop sending you to custody and the victim may wonder why that is.
"The vast majority of judges would take that course but that would have the Draconian effect of you losing custody of your children when they are at a vulnerable age.
GLASS and bottle attacks in Gwent have soared by 130 per cent amid claims by a leading police officer that cheap booze and supermarket offers could be to blame.
In 2007, there were 33 incidents involving bottles and glasses, but this year?s figures show the number of attacks has increased to 76 incidents.
Attacks in Newport have also increased from 14 to 26 reported incidents, a rise of almost 86 per cent, despite an Argus campaign to encourage pubs to use plastic glasses.
Published Date: 01 December 2007
A WOMAN was left needing reconstructive surgery to her face after a glassing attack outside a pub, a crown court heard.
Published Date: 25 August 2008
A MODEL scarred for life by a glass attack to the face is planning to return to the spotlight, it was reported today.
Joanne Minto, 20, feared she would have to give up a promising career in the modelling industry after her face was cut to shreds and she was blinded in one eye in a drunken attack.
NRL star faces lesser ?glassing? charge
LEAGUE star Greg Bird, back from holidaying with the girlfriend he allegedly glassed, has had a charge against him downgraded.
THIS video-grab photograph shows a man fleeing a city nightclub after viciously attacking a woman with a glass, leaving her permanently scarred.
A jury at Exeter Crown Court yesterday found 23-year-old Doucoure, of Haldon Road, St David’s, guilty of wounding Christine Pearce with intent to cause her grievous bodily harm.
Miss Pearce, also 23, told the court how Doucoure approached her, began swearing and then attacked her with the glass, at the club in Little Castle Street, on June 28 last year.
She said the defendant was a distant acquaintance and she had rebuffed his attentions at another nightclub in the past.
The victim was led to an ambulance, blood pouring from her face after suffering cuts to one of her eyes and her nose.
Detective Constable Blain Bishop told the Echo after the verdict: "This was a horrific incident, particularly for such a young woman, who has been badly scarred across her face and it has had a traumatic effect on her. She still has fragments of glass embedded in her eye to this day.
TWO young Bournemouth women have each been sentenced to 12 months detention after being convicted of separate glassing incidents that left their female victims scarred for life.
I don’t know if it will be difficult for all the “rootin tootin” “gun toting” “gun culture” “redneck cowboys” on this forum to believe but it appears that Australians engage in this activity too. Imagine that.
A WOMAN glassed in the face and now blind in one eye has demanded pubs and clubs be forced to use toughened plastic cups.
The 20-year-old’s call follows plans by police to encourage Sydney CBD pubs and clubs to consider changing to the plastic alternative late at night.
Ms Kelley is the fourth person to be glassed in NSW in less than three weeks. On Melbourne Cup night a young man suffered severe cuts to the face when struck with a glass at a Surry Hills pub.
And last Friday, a 19-year-old Tamworth teenager was rushed to hospital after being allegedly hit with a schooner glass at a hotel.
On October 13 an off-duty police officer was hit in the eye with a glass at a city pub when his alleged attacker made an unwanted advance towards one of his colleagues.
These are the horrific injuries a teenager suffered when she was glassed at a nightclub.
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Horror image of ‘girl gang glassing’ victim
Tuesday, October 28, 2008
These are the horrific injuries a teenager suffered when she was glassed at a nightclub.
Glassing victim
The 19-year-old needed 30 stitches to her face, neck and shoulders.
She told how she was cornered in the toilets by a gang of women who hit her several times with a broken glass.
Check out two of todays batch of knifing crimes from Europe.
A father stabbed his estranged wife to death in a ‘frenzied attack’ after discovering she had changed her Facebook status to ‘single’.
Edward Richardson, 41, was high on a cocktail of cocaine and alcohol when he smashed his way into her parents’ home and used a carving knife to kill 26-year-old Sarah Richardson as she lay in bed.
The carpenter stabbed his wife with such force he shattered her ribs. She also suffered puncture wounds to her liver and a slashed aorta.
Richardson was yesterday jailed for life after a jury took less than three hours to convict him of murder at Stafford Crown Court.
Judge Simon Tonking ordered Richardson, of Biddulph, Stoke-on-Trent, to serve at least 18 years.
Or how about a massacre?
At least three dead, including two children, in knife massacre at crèche dubbed ‘Belgium’s Dunblane’
A psychiatric patient stabbed to death a woman and two children under the age of three in a horrifying attack at a crèche in Belgium today.
At least 10 other children and two adults are said to have been injured when the knifeman ran wild in the nursery in a small town 20 miles west of Brussels.
The man - who was smeared with Apache-style black and white face paint - burst into the school before 10am.
[quote]tom63 wrote:
…you’re right, it’s so much better to be an innocent victim of some stupid drive-by shooting, or to be shot by police for drawing your wallet…
THOSE THINGS HAPPEN SO MUCH LESS THAN AN INNOCENT PROTECTING THEMSELVES OR OTHERS, now go back to picking tulips.[/quote]
…but how often is someone glassed? How often is an innocent bystander shot, and how many people are deemed “accidental deaths” by police?
