[quote]ephrem wrote:
…by the way orion: i’m not a mindreader, so if there are arguments against me please be so kind as to tell me in advance, instead of jumping to conclusions based on rationalisations that exist only in your head. Mmkay?[/quote]
On the P&WI board?
Cereally?
PS: My spellchecker accepts “cereally” now. That means it is officially part of the English language now.
At least on my computer.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
A lot of this problem could be resolved by changing the type of glass that is used in pubs. When I worked as a barman in Mcr 13 years ago there was lots of talk about it but at the end of the day, the Breweries wouldn’t swallow the cost and claimed that their customers wouldn’t accept the hike either.
Blame the brewers for what the louts do with their glassware?
Even better. Blame the glassware.[/quote]
I blame feminism, moral relativism and Islamo-fascism.
[quote]orion wrote:
ephrem wrote:
orion wrote:Now obviously that is not true if you have any kind of insurance.
Now you might argue that you do not deem the risk a gun would insure you against to be significant enough to warrant an insurance, but you did not.
…i went without health insurance for 8 years when they changed the system and made it very costly to remain uninsured, so i went and got health insurance. Good thing i did though, a couple of months later i was diagnosed with auto-immune hepatitis, which requires a life time of drugs and regular bloodwork.
But you are comparing apples and oranges here: health insurance, fire insurance and something like a legal accountability insurance [don’t know the proper english vernacular] are insurances against things that can happen with a much higher probability than a meltdown of civilization; a dutch civil war or a global pandemic…
But that is exactly what an insurance is for.
Risks that have a very low probability but would incur very high costs if they ever manifested themselves.
The idea is that you can afford the regular payments whereas risk you are insured against would break your neck, financially speaking.
In this case, a lot of people owning guns even makes it less likely that the worst case scenario ever happens!
This is almost a model case that desperately cries out for insurance.
[/quote]
…i’m not insured against unemployement, don’t have life insurance, no pensionplan and no disability insurance. So it’s not out of character for me to not have a gun as a form of insurance. Still, if someone [Schwarzfahrer?] could confirm that it’s indeed possible to buy small caliber handguns over the counter in Germany; i have a 2 week vacation coming up in March (-;
[quote]orion wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…by the way orion: i’m not a mindreader, so if there are arguments against me please be so kind as to tell me in advance, instead of jumping to conclusions based on rationalisations that exist only in your head. Mmkay?
On the P&WI board?
Cereally?
PS: My spellchecker accepts “cereally” now. That means it is officially part of the English language now.
At least on my computer.
[/quote]
…it just confirms you’re an odd fellow…
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
A lot of this problem could be resolved by changing the type of glass that is used in pubs. When I worked as a barman in Mcr 13 years ago there was lots of talk about it but at the end of the day, the Breweries wouldn’t swallow the cost and claimed that their customers wouldn’t accept the hike either.
Blame the brewers for what the louts do with their glassware?
Even better. Blame the glassware.[/quote]
You guys think in such a linear way don’t you.
I am not blaming the brewers or the glassware, there are a number of underlying causes for loutish behaviour and we should all work to minimise them but the fact remains that people will go out, get drunk and pick a fight (all over the world.) They will then use whatever weapon is available to fight with. Different countries have different cultural attachments to weapons. In the UK, headbutting and glassing are two such examples. In the US guns are an example.
Possibly this is because in the US everyone is sipping girly cocktails and packing heat, whereas in Europe they are quaffing flaggons of ale and don’t have ready access to firearms.
[quote]orion wrote:
ephrem wrote:
orion wrote:Now obviously that is not true if you have any kind of insurance.
Now you might argue that you do not deem the risk a gun would insure you against to be significant enough to warrant an insurance, but you did not.
…i went without health insurance for 8 years when they changed the system and made it very costly to remain uninsured, so i went and got health insurance. Good thing i did though, a couple of months later i was diagnosed with auto-immune hepatitis, which requires a life time of drugs and regular bloodwork.
But you are comparing apples and oranges here: health insurance, fire insurance and something like a legal accountability insurance [don’t know the proper english vernacular] are insurances against things that can happen with a much higher probability than a meltdown of civilization; a dutch civil war or a global pandemic…
But that is exactly what an insurance is for.
Risks that have a very low probability but would incur very high costs if they ever manifested themselves.
The idea is that you can afford the regular payments whereas risk you are insured against would break your neck, financially speaking.
In this case, a lot of people owning guns even makes it less likely that the worst case scenario ever happens!
This is almost a model case that desperately cries out for insurance.
[/quote]
There is actually a large group of people that feel that insurance is a scam.
On the whole I only have the insurance that I am mandated to. I have health insurance here in Mexico because my company gives it to me (would consider buying it anyway because I have a young daughter who will definitely spend time sick and the Social Security hospitals here are not great…)
I have car insurance because I need it for the loan that I used to purchase the car.
I have life assurance because I need it for my Mortgage.
Other than that, I don’t have insurance.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Possibly this is because in the US everyone is sipping girly cocktails and packing heat, whereas in Europe they are quaffing flaggons of ale and don’t have ready access to firearms.[/quote]
Oh, don’t be daft. This is a flagon. Who drinks ale from one of these?
Besides, you couldn’t stab anyone with one of those. Bust it over their heads, maybe.
[quote]AndyG wrote:
Cockney, don’t bother arguing statistics with Sifu. He makes them up! [/quote]
You see cockney this is why I have been mentioning Australia into this thread.
I wondered if our resident Australian cunt was going to reappear. If you think that because you have another cunt to agree with you that you won’t get another hiding you are mistaken old boy.
[quote]
Last time he said Australia’s crime rates went up(because Charlton Heston said so) even though it was clearly a lie. [/quote]
Last time you got your ass kicked and bailed out.
[quote]
Yes in principle everyone owning guns works nicely but what the seppos fail to realise is the link between legal guns being bought filtering into the black market and making them more accessible to criminals. [/quote]
Not everyone needs to own guns. It is a personal choice that people should be free to choose what they think is best for them.
Any reduction in the number of guns that make their way into the black market that is caused by gun control is totally negated by rendering potential victims of violent crime defenseless.
This is a cause and effect relationship that you and cockney refuse to accept. Instead you two want to push your fantasy that you can take guns away from law abiding citizens without it having any affect upon the behavior of criminals.
Both of you want to pretend that guns in the hands of honest citizens are not a deterrent to criminals.
[quote]
They will also try to pass off their huge murder rates as black people’s fault and use statistically irrelevant anomalies like some white town with 4 people in it to prove their point. [/quote]
Now you are trying to build a straw man. I did not say it is black peoples fault.
I provided you with links to the US Department of Justice crime figures. In America Black on Black crime is a well documented phenomena.
A handful of large cities with poor blacks living in ghettos are responsible for the vast majority of the murders in this country.
Honolulu Hawaii and Detroit Michigan are not small white towns. Honolulu has a little over 900,000 Detroit has 890,000. Detroit is %80 black and has 49 murders per 100,000 inhabitants.
Honolulu has very few blacks and most of them are middle class. The murder rate in Honolulu is 1 per 100,000. Which means that Honolulu has a lower rate than dozens of British cites with populations over 100,000.
Here are the rates for some British cities.
Think tank Reform ranked urban areas with populations of more than 100,000 using data on burglary, murder, rape, robbery, car and gun crime from police.
Nottingham also had the highest murder rate - with 5.21 crimes for every 100,000 population -
followed by St Helens, Merseyside, with 4.87, according to Reform.
London came 21st with 2.12.
Last year the US murder rate was 5.6 per 100,000 So Nottingham’s 5.21 is just a little bit below the US average.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_01.html
[quote]
Sadly I think the US has gone beyond the point where gun control will work. All the wackos already have them.
By the way sifu, your ravings about the government coming to kill people just for owning guns are quite amusing. Are you schizophrenic? [/quote]
You are full of shit. I never wrote anything like that.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
A lot of this problem could be resolved by changing the type of glass that is used in pubs. When I worked as a barman in Mcr 13 years ago there was lots of talk about it but at the end of the day, the Breweries wouldn’t swallow the cost and claimed that their customers wouldn’t accept the hike either.
Blame the brewers for what the louts do with their glassware?
Even better. Blame the glassware.
You guys think in such a linear way don’t you.
I am not blaming the brewers or the glassware, there are a number of underlying causes for loutish behaviour and we should all work to minimise them but the fact remains that people will go out, get drunk and pick a fight (all over the world.) They will then use whatever weapon is available to fight with. Different countries have different cultural attachments to weapons. In the UK, headbutting and glassing are two such examples. In the US guns are an example.
Possibly this is because in the US everyone is sipping girly cocktails and packing heat, whereas in Europe they are quaffing flaggons of ale and don’t have ready access to firearms.[/quote]
Or perhaps it is a result of Britain having very permissive attitudes toward violent crime. Here is a good example of just how permissive the British are when it comes to violent crime.
A schoolgirl who was gang-raped and then doused with caustic soda has told of her anguish at being unable to forgive her attackers.
As three of them were jailed for a total of 23 years yesterday, the teenager, who is scarred for life, told of her struggle to adhere to her family’s belief in compassion.
The girl, 15 at the time but with a mental age of nine, was repeatedly raped by a gang of youths.
They poured caustic soda over her, leaving her with skin peeling off her face and chest and screaming in agony as they ran away laughing.
Yesterday Jamaican-born Rogel McMorris, 18, of Stockwell, was locked up for nine years after being found guilty of rape and grievous bodily harm. His immigration status is being investigated.
Angolan immigrant Hector Muaimba, 20, of Walthamstow, was given an eight-year sentence for rape and robbery and Jason Brew, 19, of Tottenham, was sentenced to six years for rape. They will serve their sentences in a youth offenders’ institution.
The gang pounced in Tottenham, North London, on January 9 last year after the girl had arranged to meet another man.
One of the alleged attackers was Steven Bigby, 22, who was stabbed to death in Oxford Street, London in May last year.
He had been charged with the rape and freed on bail, only to be murdered in a gang fight outside a McDonald’s store. Police remain certain he was one of the ringleaders of the attack.
The trio filmed themselves gang-raping the girl, laughing as they used their mobile phones to record her suffering.
They had hoped the caustic soda - a powerful corrosive - would destroy forensic evidence.
As she writhed in agony, they poured water on her, intensifying the burning.
The alarm was raised by a neighbour, who heard her ‘frantic’ cries and found her covered with raw patches on her face and body.
A year on, the girl still has scarring to 50 per cent of her body. She is unable to control her temperature and will need extensive surgery for years to come.
Judge Shaun Lyons said her life had been left in ‘ruins’.
Last night her uncle said: 'We know the sentence imposed on the perpetrators of this hideous crime will not bring sufficient justice and healing.
If they were subject to American justice they would have been charged with a multiple offenses and put away for a long time. But in Britain all they get is a slap on the wrist.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
… at the end of the day, the Breweries wouldn’t swallow the cost and claimed that their customers wouldn’t accept the hike either.
Blame the brewers for what the louts do with their glassware?
Even better. Blame the glassware.
You guys think in such a linear way don’t you.
I am not blaming the brewers or the glassware, there are a number of underlying causes …[/quote]
Can’t imagine why I was thinking you were blaming the brewers.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
A lot of this problem could be resolved by changing the type of glass that is used in pubs. When I worked as a barman in Mcr 13 years ago there was lots of talk about it but at the end of the day, the Breweries wouldn’t swallow the cost and claimed that their customers wouldn’t accept the hike either.
Blame the brewers for what the louts do with their glassware?
Even better. Blame the glassware.
You guys think in such a linear way don’t you.
I am not blaming the brewers or the glassware, there are a number of underlying causes for loutish behaviour and we should all work to minimise them but the fact remains that people will go out, get drunk and pick a fight (all over the world.) They will then use whatever weapon is available to fight with. Different countries have different cultural attachments to weapons. In the UK, headbutting and glassing are two such examples. In the US guns are an example.
Possibly this is because in the US everyone is sipping girly cocktails and packing heat, whereas in Europe they are quaffing flaggons of ale and don’t have ready access to firearms.
Or perhaps it is a result of Britain having very permissive attitudes toward violent crime. Here is a good example of just how permissive the British are when it comes to violent crime.
A schoolgirl who was gang-raped and then doused with caustic soda has told of her anguish at being unable to forgive her attackers.
As three of them were jailed for a total of 23 years yesterday, the teenager, who is scarred for life, told of her struggle to adhere to her family’s belief in compassion.
The girl, 15 at the time but with a mental age of nine, was repeatedly raped by a gang of youths.
They poured caustic soda over her, leaving her with skin peeling off her face and chest and screaming in agony as they ran away laughing.
Yesterday Jamaican-born Rogel McMorris, 18, of Stockwell, was locked up for nine years after being found guilty of rape and grievous bodily harm. His immigration status is being investigated.
Angolan immigrant Hector Muaimba, 20, of Walthamstow, was given an eight-year sentence for rape and robbery and Jason Brew, 19, of Tottenham, was sentenced to six years for rape. They will serve their sentences in a youth offenders’ institution.
The gang pounced in Tottenham, North London, on January 9 last year after the girl had arranged to meet another man.
One of the alleged attackers was Steven Bigby, 22, who was stabbed to death in Oxford Street, London in May last year.
He had been charged with the rape and freed on bail, only to be murdered in a gang fight outside a McDonald’s store. Police remain certain he was one of the ringleaders of the attack.
The trio filmed themselves gang-raping the girl, laughing as they used their mobile phones to record her suffering.
They had hoped the caustic soda - a powerful corrosive - would destroy forensic evidence.
As she writhed in agony, they poured water on her, intensifying the burning.
The alarm was raised by a neighbour, who heard her ‘frantic’ cries and found her covered with raw patches on her face and body.
A year on, the girl still has scarring to 50 per cent of her body. She is unable to control her temperature and will need extensive surgery for years to come.
Judge Shaun Lyons said her life had been left in ‘ruins’.
Last night her uncle said: 'We know the sentence imposed on the perpetrators of this hideous crime will not bring sufficient justice and healing.
If they were subject to American justice they would have been charged with a multiple offenses and put away for a long time. But in Britain all they get is a slap on the wrist.
[/quote]
The example you have just given shows that several people were convicted of the crime, the gang leader wasn’t but that is hardly suprising because he is dead. The sentences for these guys were in line with what they would have recieved in the US.
Here’s some reading for you:
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/about-us/news/2006-sentencing-stats
Statistics show more offenders receiving jail terms
30 January 2007
New sentencing figures show a sharp rise in the number of offenders sent to prison and an increase in the average length of sentences.
Courts are sentencing more offenders to prison than ever before, as use of imprisonment as punishment has increased by more than 25% over the last 10 years, according to Sentencing Statistics 2005 .
The figures reflect the new sentences that came into effect in April 2005 following the Criminal Justice Act 2003, including indeterminate public protection sentences for dangerous offenders, and new community orders for less serious crimes.
Here’s some more reading:
Sentencing for rape varies depending on circumstances and locale. However, Department of Justice (DOJ) reports this:
The average sentence for criminals convicted of rape in the United States (and released in 1992) is 117 months. The average time served is 65 months, which equates to 56 percent of the actual sentence served. For crimes of sexual assault, the average sentence is 72 months, and the average time served is 35 months, equating to 49 percent of time served. (Greenfeld, Lawrence A., 1995, “Prison Sentences and Time Served for Violence,” page 1, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, Washington, D.C.)
I found this information at: http://ojp.usdoj.gov/ovc/ncvrw/1996/m-rape.htm
I thought it was only in the UK that sentences were reduced due to good behaviour…
Also, going back to your rape stats showing the US having lower stats than Australia (just)
How do you account for this then?
REPORTS · The United States has the world's highest rape rate of the countries that publish such statistics. It's 4 times higher than Germany, 13 times higher than England, and 20 times higher than Japan.
· Only 16% of rapes and sexual assaults are reported to the police (Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. 1992)
· The rate of false reports of rape is approximately 2 - 3% which is no different than that for other crimes.
· One of every four rapes take place in a public area or in a parking garage.
RAPE
· 68% of rapes occur between the hours of 6 p.m. and 6 a.m.
· In 29% of rapes, the offender used a weapon.
· 55% of the number of rape/sexual assault victimizations in which self-protective measures were employed by the victim resulted in helping the situation. Self-protective measures hurt the situation in 10.5% of victimizations. In 17.2% of the incidents the result neither helped nor hurt the situation, and in 7.7% of the incidents the situation was both helped and hurt.
· In cases where self-protective measures by the victim were helpful, 42.5% avoided injury or greater injury, 37.6% escaped, and 11.1% of the time the offender was scared off.
VICTIMS
· 1 out of every 3 American women will be sexually assulted in her lifetime.
· 1 in 7 women will be raped by her husband.
· 83% of rape cases are ages 24 or under.
· 1 in 4 college women have either been raped or suffered attempted rape.
· 18% of women who reported being raped before age 18 said they were also raped after age 18. (Violence Against Women Survey, 1998)
· 75% of female rape victims require medical care after the attack.
· 1 out of 5 victims of sexual assault is male
· 2 out of 5 victims of child sexual abuse are male
· Most male rape victims are heterosexual
· Approximately 68% of rape victims knew their assailant. [Violence against Women. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994]
· Approximately 28% of victims are raped by husbands or boyfriends, 35% by acquaintances, and 5% by other relatives. [Violence against Women. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994]
· According to the Justice Department, one in two rape victims is under age 18; one in six is under age 12. [Child Rape Victims, 1992. U.S. Department of Justice.]
· Teens 16 to 19 were three and one-half times more likely than the general population to be victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assault. [National Crime Victimization Survey. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, 1996.]
PERPATRATOR
· 6 out of 10 sexual assaults occur in the home of the victim or the home of a friend, neighbor or relative. (Greenfeld, 1997)
· At least 45% of rapists were under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
· Most perpetrators of male rape are heterosexual
· 71% of the rapists were under the influence of drugs (inc. alcohol).
· 15% reported taking drugs less than 15 minutes prior to the rape.
· 21% premeditated the rape. 27% committed the rape while committing another crime.
· 16% were impulsive/spontaneous, "the victim was simply an easy available 'innocent bystander'".
· 7% were committed after an argument with the victim. 6% after sexual foreplay with the victim.
· 89% of the rapists described the victims as not being provocative, "The victims did not verbally provoke nor were sexually attractive to the attacker". Patterns of Behavior in Adolescent Rape by Vinogradov et al. in the American Journal of Orthopsychiatry 58(2) April 1988 pp 179-87.
· In rapes/sexual assaults involving strangers, weapons were known to be used in 20.3% of the incidents. Of these, 8.8% used a firearm (hand gun) and 11.5% used a knife. In rapes/sexual assaults involving nonstrangers, weapons were known to be used in 15% of the incidents. Of these, 4.2% used a firearm (hand gun); 5.4% used a knife or sharp object, and 2% used some other weapon.
· Of those rape/sexual assault victimizations using physical force, the offender was the first to use force in 87.1% of incidents. The victim was first to use force only 7.1% of the time
IMPACT
· 25 - 45% of rape survivors suffer from non-genital trauma, 19 - 22% suffer from genital trauma, up to 40% obtain STDs and 1 - 5% become pregnant as a result of the rape. There are an estimated 32,000 rape related pregnancies in the United States annually. (Holmes, 1996) Sexual assault survivors' visits to their physicians increase by 18% the year of the assault, 56% the year after and 31% the second year after the assault. (Koss, 1993)
· Overall, rape has the highest annual victim cost of any crime. The annual victim costs are $127 billion (excluding child sex abuse cases). This is followed by assault at $93 billion per year, murder (excluding arson and drunk driving) at $61 billion and child abuse at $56 billion per year (Miller, 1996).
· Less than half of those arrested for rape are convicted, 54% of all rape prosecutions end in either dismissal or acquittal. The conviction rate for those arrested for murder is 69% and all other felons is 54%. (The Response to Rape: Detours on the Road to Equal Justice) 21% of convicted rapists are never sentenced to jail or prison time, and 24% receive time in local jail which means that they spend an average of less than 11 months behind bars (The Response to Rape: Detours on the Road to Equal Justice).
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Honolulu Hawaii and Detroit Michigan are not small white towns. Honolulu has a little over 900,000 Detroit has 890,000. Detroit is %80 black and has 49 murders per 100,000 inhabitants.
Honolulu has very few blacks and most of them are middle class. The murder rate in Honolulu is 1 per 100,000. Which means that Honolulu has a lower rate than dozens of British cites with populations over 100,000.
Here are the rates for some British cities.
Think tank Reform ranked urban areas with populations of more than 100,000 using data on burglary, murder, rape, robbery, car and gun crime from police.
Nottingham also had the highest murder rate - with 5.21 crimes for every 100,000 population -
followed by St Helens, Merseyside, with 4.87, according to Reform.
London came 21st with 2.12.
Last year the US murder rate was 5.6 per 100,000 So Nottingham’s 5.21 is just a little bit below the US average.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_01.html
[/quote]
So why if guns are such a deterant are the murder rates in the US almost triple those for the UK then. Surely this would be reversed were your argument to hold any water…
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Or perhaps it is a result of Britain having very permissive attitudes toward violent crime. Here is a good example of just how permissive the British are when it comes to violent crime.
A schoolgirl who was gang-raped and then doused with caustic soda has told of her anguish at being unable to forgive her attackers.
[/quote]
Permissive attitudes don’t enter into it. It is entirely the result of the public having unrestricted access to caustic soda. The British must impose a strict ban on caustic soda, to prevent this sort of tragedy from re-occurring.
Ha ha ha ha ha! I’ve already told you not to bother Cockney. Sifu makes up his stats. He will discount yours while quoting his own froma gun lobbyist’s website.
Ha ha ha ha! It is quite funny that you have shown him to be a liar once again.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Or perhaps it is a result of Britain having very permissive attitudes toward violent crime. Here is a good example of just how permissive the British are when it comes to violent crime.
A schoolgirl who was gang-raped and then doused with caustic soda has told of her anguish at being unable to forgive her attackers.
Permissive attitudes don’t enter into it. It is entirely the result of the public having unrestricted access to caustic soda. The British must impose a strict ban on caustic soda, to prevent this sort of tragedy from re-occurring.[/quote]
You really have problems with anything other than a direct ABC line don’t you. Do you work in manufacturing by any chance.
My comments about the type of glass used in pubs was that if you could change the type of glass and there was a benefit if the cost of that change was minimal (especially when weighed up against the PR win that could go alongside it.) then you should change that glass.
The proposed glasses didn’t change the flavour of the beer. Is your argument that they should keep the glass that shatters into knife like edges so as not to infringe on the civil liberties of the drinkers?
In a gas station they put up signs saying no smoking. This is because flames and petrol tend to cause problems when combined in the wrong way. Are they wrong to ban smoking in gas stations?
I feel totally confident that I can drive perfectly after several beers, it’s other people who can’t hold their drinks that cause the crashes. Thousands of people drive drunk every day and don’t get into crashes. Forcing me to not be able to drive back from a bar really impinges on my civil liberties it also puts me at risk of being mugged or run over. I don’t trust any government that would want to take this right away from me.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
A lot of this problem could be resolved by changing the type of glass that is used in pubs. When I worked as a barman in Mcr 13 years ago there was lots of talk about it but at the end of the day, the Breweries wouldn’t swallow the cost and claimed that their customers wouldn’t accept the hike either.
Blame the brewers for what the louts do with their glassware?
Even better. Blame the glassware.
You guys think in such a linear way don’t you.
I am not blaming the brewers or the glassware, there are a number of underlying causes for loutish behaviour and we should all work to minimise them but the fact remains that people will go out, get drunk and pick a fight (all over the world.) They will then use whatever weapon is available to fight with. Different countries have different cultural attachments to weapons. In the UK, headbutting and glassing are two such examples. In the US guns are an example.
Possibly this is because in the US everyone is sipping girly cocktails and packing heat, whereas in Europe they are quaffing flaggons of ale and don’t have ready access to firearms.
Or perhaps it is a result of Britain having very permissive attitudes toward violent crime. Here is a good example of just how permissive the British are when it comes to violent crime.
A schoolgirl who was gang-raped and then doused with caustic soda has told of her anguish at being unable to forgive her attackers.
As three of them were jailed for a total of 23 years yesterday, the teenager, who is scarred for life, told of her struggle to adhere to her family’s belief in compassion.
The girl, 15 at the time but with a mental age of nine, was repeatedly raped by a gang of youths.
They poured caustic soda over her, leaving her with skin peeling off her face and chest and screaming in agony as they ran away laughing.
Yesterday Jamaican-born Rogel McMorris, 18, of Stockwell, was locked up for nine years after being found guilty of rape and grievous bodily harm. His immigration status is being investigated.
Angolan immigrant Hector Muaimba, 20, of Walthamstow, was given an eight-year sentence for rape and robbery and Jason Brew, 19, of Tottenham, was sentenced to six years for rape. They will serve their sentences in a youth offenders’ institution.
The gang pounced in Tottenham, North London, on January 9 last year after the girl had arranged to meet another man.
One of the alleged attackers was Steven Bigby, 22, who was stabbed to death in Oxford Street, London in May last year.
He had been charged with the rape and freed on bail, only to be murdered in a gang fight outside a McDonald’s store. Police remain certain he was one of the ringleaders of the attack.
The trio filmed themselves gang-raping the girl, laughing as they used their mobile phones to record her suffering.
They had hoped the caustic soda - a powerful corrosive - would destroy forensic evidence.
As she writhed in agony, they poured water on her, intensifying the burning.
The alarm was raised by a neighbour, who heard her ‘frantic’ cries and found her covered with raw patches on her face and body.
A year on, the girl still has scarring to 50 per cent of her body. She is unable to control her temperature and will need extensive surgery for years to come.
Judge Shaun Lyons said her life had been left in ‘ruins’.
Last night her uncle said: 'We know the sentence imposed on the perpetrators of this hideous crime will not bring sufficient justice and healing.
If they were subject to American justice they would have been charged with a multiple offenses and put away for a long time. But in Britain all they get is a slap on the wrist.
The example you have just given shows that several people were convicted of the crime, the gang leader wasn’t but that is hardly suprising because he is dead. The sentences for these guys were in line with what they would have recieved in the US.
Here’s some reading for you:
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/about-us/news/2006-sentencing-stats
Statistics show more offenders receiving jail terms
30 January 2007
New sentencing figures show a sharp rise in the number of offenders sent to prison and an increase in the average length of sentences.
Courts are sentencing more offenders to prison than ever before, as use of imprisonment as punishment has increased by more than 25% over the last 10 years, according to Sentencing Statistics 2005 .
The figures reflect the new sentences that came into effect in April 2005 following the Criminal Justice Act 2003, including indeterminate public protection sentences for dangerous offenders, and new community orders for less serious crimes.
Here’s some more reading:
Sentencing for rape varies depending on circumstances and locale. However, Department of Justice (DOJ) reports this:
The average sentence for criminals convicted of rape in the United States (and released in 1992) is 117 months. The average time served is 65 months, which equates to 56 percent of the actual sentence served. For crimes of sexual assault, the average sentence is 72 months, and the average time served is 35 months, equating to 49 percent of time served. (Greenfeld, Lawrence A., 1995, “Prison Sentences and Time Served for Violence,” page 1, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, Washington, D.C.)
I found this information at: http://ojp.usdoj.gov/ovc/ncvrw/1996/m-rape.htm
I thought it was only in the UK that sentences were reduced due to good behaviour…[/quote]
You are quoting figures for all rapes combined and averaged.
A class A felony of 1st degree criminal sexual assault carries a max penalty of life in prison. 2nd and 3rd degree carries a penalty of 15 years. That was a 1st degree sexual assault.
Kidnapping-child enticement carries a life sentence.
Placing an offensive or injurious substance causing serious impairment. Life sentence.
http://courts.michigan.gov/mji/resources/sentencing-guidelines/2008/2008_felonyLIST_alphabetical.pdf
Then there is the points system they use to calculate severity of an offense against a person. They score high points for the use of a chemical, the injuries inflicted and the rape.
Aggravated use of a weapon (OV1) 20 points,
Lethal potential of a weapon (OV2) 15 points
Degree of physical injury to a victim (OV3) 25 points
Degree of psychological injury to a victim (OV4) 10 points
Intent to kill or injure (OV6) 25 points
Aggravated physical abuse (OV7) 50 points For sadism or torture
Victim asportation or captivity (OV8) 15 points
Exploitation of victims vulnerability. (OV10) 15 points
predatory conduct.
Criminal sexual penetration. (OV11) 50 points
Number of contemporaneous felonious criminal acts. (OV12) 25 points
http://courts.michigan.gov/mji/resources/sentencing-guidelines/2008/person_2008.pdf
As you can see they scored high on a lot of aggravating factors for multiple felonies, several of which they could receive life in prison for.
Also I didn’t see anything for the filming of the rape of a 15 year old in the state guidelines. So I will assume that they would have been charged separately under federal charges for production of child pornography. So that is another set of charges they could have been charged and punished for.
The bottom line is in an American court they would have been very lucky to get anything less than 15 years and they very likely would have gotten life.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Also, going back to your rape stats showing the US having lower stats than Australia (just)
How do you account for this then?
REPORTS · The United States has the world's highest rape rate of the countries that publish such statistics. It's 4 times higher than Germany, 13 times higher than England, and 20 times higher than Japan.
· Only 16% of rapes and sexual assaults are reported to the police (Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. 1992)
· The rate of false reports of rape is approximately 2 - 3% which is no different than that for other crimes.
· One of every four rapes take place in a public area or in a parking garage.
RAPE
· 68% of rapes occur between the hours of 6 p.m. and 6 a.m.
· In 29% of rapes, the offender used a weapon.
· 55% of the number of rape/sexual assault victimizations in which self-protective measures were employed by the victim resulted in helping the situation. Self-protective measures hurt the situation in 10.5% of victimizations. In 17.2% of the incidents the result neither helped nor hurt the situation, and in 7.7% of the incidents the situation was both helped and hurt.
· In cases where self-protective measures by the victim were helpful, 42.5% avoided injury or greater injury, 37.6% escaped, and 11.1% of the time the offender was scared off.
VICTIMS
· 1 out of every 3 American women will be sexually assulted in her lifetime.
· 1 in 7 women will be raped by her husband.
· 83% of rape cases are ages 24 or under.
· 1 in 4 college women have either been raped or suffered attempted rape.
· 18% of women who reported being raped before age 18 said they were also raped after age 18. (Violence Against Women Survey, 1998)
· 75% of female rape victims require medical care after the attack.
· 1 out of 5 victims of sexual assault is male
· 2 out of 5 victims of child sexual abuse are male
· Most male rape victims are heterosexual
· Approximately 68% of rape victims knew their assailant. [Violence against Women. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994]
· Approximately 28% of victims are raped by husbands or boyfriends, 35% by acquaintances, and 5% by other relatives. [Violence against Women. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994]
· According to the Justice Department, one in two rape victims is under age 18; one in six is under age 12. [Child Rape Victims, 1992. U.S. Department of Justice.]
· Teens 16 to 19 were three and one-half times more likely than the general population to be victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assault. [National Crime Victimization Survey. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, 1996.]
PERPATRATOR
· 6 out of 10 sexual assaults occur in the home of the victim or the home of a friend, neighbor or relative. (Greenfeld, 1997)
· At least 45% of rapists were under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
· Most perpetrators of male rape are heterosexual
· 71% of the rapists were under the influence of drugs (inc. alcohol).
· 15% reported taking drugs less than 15 minutes prior to the rape.
· 21% premeditated the rape. 27% committed the rape while committing another crime.
· 16% were impulsive/spontaneous, "the victim was simply an easy available 'innocent bystander'".
· 7% were committed after an argument with the victim. 6% after sexual foreplay with the victim.
· 89% of the rapists described the victims as not being provocative, "The victims did not verbally provoke nor were sexually attractive to the attacker". Patterns of Behavior in Adolescent Rape by Vinogradov et al. in the American Journal of Orthopsychiatry 58(2) April 1988 pp 179-87.
· In rapes/sexual assaults involving strangers, weapons were known to be used in 20.3% of the incidents. Of these, 8.8% used a firearm (hand gun) and 11.5% used a knife. In rapes/sexual assaults involving nonstrangers, weapons were known to be used in 15% of the incidents. Of these, 4.2% used a firearm (hand gun); 5.4% used a knife or sharp object, and 2% used some other weapon.
· Of those rape/sexual assault victimizations using physical force, the offender was the first to use force in 87.1% of incidents. The victim was first to use force only 7.1% of the time
IMPACT
· 25 - 45% of rape survivors suffer from non-genital trauma, 19 - 22% suffer from genital trauma, up to 40% obtain STDs and 1 - 5% become pregnant as a result of the rape. There are an estimated 32,000 rape related pregnancies in the United States annually. (Holmes, 1996) Sexual assault survivors' visits to their physicians increase by 18% the year of the assault, 56% the year after and 31% the second year after the assault. (Koss, 1993)
· Overall, rape has the highest annual victim cost of any crime. The annual victim costs are $127 billion (excluding child sex abuse cases). This is followed by assault at $93 billion per year, murder (excluding arson and drunk driving) at $61 billion and child abuse at $56 billion per year (Miller, 1996).
· Less than half of those arrested for rape are convicted, 54% of all rape prosecutions end in either dismissal or acquittal. The conviction rate for those arrested for murder is 69% and all other felons is 54%. (The Response to Rape: Detours on the Road to Equal Justice) 21% of convicted rapists are never sentenced to jail or prison time, and 24% receive time in local jail which means that they spend an average of less than 11 months behind bars (The Response to Rape: Detours on the Road to Equal Justice).[/quote]
“Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. 1992” Was published in 1992. It is presently 2009. Your source is over 17 years old. Over that 17 years America has seen significant reductions in crime. Also this is prior to the 1997 changes in firearms laws in the UK and Australia. In fact the most recent of these quoted sources is 1998. One of the sources is 1988. That is over 21 years ago.
I am at least quoting sources that are based upon the most recent statistics from this decade. Talk about digging up statistics to suit your position. You just seriously compromised your credibility on that one homeboy.
Most importantly though is this:
http://ojp.usdoj.gov/ovc/publications/infores/help_series/pdftxt/sexualassaultvictimization.txt
There is a lot of room for error in a study like that. It is like the British crime survey, where they take a survey of several thousand people then through the use of mathematics they try to extrapolate their numbers into something that is supposed to represent the country as a whole.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Honolulu Hawaii and Detroit Michigan are not small white towns. Honolulu has a little over 900,000 Detroit has 890,000. Detroit is %80 black and has 49 murders per 100,000 inhabitants.
Honolulu has very few blacks and most of them are middle class. The murder rate in Honolulu is 1 per 100,000. Which means that Honolulu has a lower rate than dozens of British cites with populations over 100,000.
Here are the rates for some British cities.
Think tank Reform ranked urban areas with populations of more than 100,000 using data on burglary, murder, rape, robbery, car and gun crime from police.
Nottingham also had the highest murder rate - with 5.21 crimes for every 100,000 population -
followed by St Helens, Merseyside, with 4.87, according to Reform.
London came 21st with 2.12.
Last year the US murder rate was 5.6 per 100,000 So Nottingham’s 5.21 is just a little bit below the US average.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_01.html
So why if guns are such a deterant are the murder rates in the US almost triple those for the UK then. Surely this would be reversed were your argument to hold any water…[/quote]
In the US the murder rate has been declining for years. It’s now 5.6 per 100,000. Despite all the hysterical paranoia from the gun control nuts as gun control laws were repealed the murder rate is going down. So we know your argument doesn’t hold water.
In the UK on the other hand murder rates are going up. Despite the use of creative accounting methods. ie A dead body that did not die through natural causes or accident but was made dead by the hand of another human being is not recorded as a murder victim until after someone is arrested tried and convicted of murder.
Gun crime is on the rise also. The big jump in gun crime started in 1997 right after the tightening of gun control. If gun control truly was the panacea you insist it is we should have seen a reduction in gun crime not an immediate and continuous increase.
The British example proves my case and disproves yours. Because for the last 12 years Britain has been experiencing rising violent crime while over the same period of time, America has been experiencing decreasing violent crime.
[quote]AndyG wrote:
Ha ha ha ha ha! I’ve already told you not to bother Cockney. Sifu makes up his stats. He will discount yours while quoting his own froma gun lobbyist’s website.
Ha ha ha ha! It is quite funny that you have shown him to be a liar once again.[/quote]
HA HA HA HA Andy why don’t you look at the dates on the information Cockney quoting. Some of that is over twenty years old. While the most damning one from 1992 is using estimates that are mathematically arrived at based upon a survey of 4008 women. None of the information he quoted is from before the turn of the century.