Dustin Hoffman and 9/11 ?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]PGJ wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:
Every single person alive is the most important thing in his own “universe”.

Altruism and selflessness do not exist.

You are absolutely right. People only do good because it makes them “feel” good.

Corporal Jason Dunham just won the Medal of Honor for jumping on a grenade in Iraq and saving the lives of several other Marines. He died. Did that make him feel good? Self sacrafice. You are self-important.

You are selfish. Your statement says it all.

[/quote]

It is obvious true selflessness and altruism exist. You just gave a perfect but extreme example.

These other guys are total fools. I am kicking myself for wasting time on these losers.

42

[quote]olderguy wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
PGJ wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:
Every single person alive is the most important thing in his own “universe”.

Altruism and selflessness do not exist.

You are absolutely right. People only do good because it makes them “feel” good.

Corporal Jason Dunham just won the Medal of Honor for jumping on a grenade in Iraq and saving the lives of several other Marines. He died. Did that make him feel good? Self sacrafice. You are self-important.

You are selfish. Your statement says it all.

He jumped because he is a trained robot full of sentimentally phrased brainwashing. That?s all we got put into our heads in bootcamp–how to be a hero by jumping on a grenade to save some chump gunny’s ass. Are we supposed to get all teary-eyed because some poor corporal made a decision to die for a cause that may or may not have been relevant?

All people are self important. Otherwise why live? I do what I feel to be good because it fulfils the biological need satiate my ego.

All humans do this. It is part of our biology. It is called self preservation and our push for survival dictates it. Don’t be a victim of your biology. Embrace it.

This is not to say the individual is the only important entity. We exist as social beings so we have to reconcile our individuality with the community we exist in. We could no more survive as individuals as we could if we relied on others to breathe for us.

This being said, quit spouting meaningless rhetoric to braindead internet posters. The whole of existance doesn’t rotate aound the US military–especially one corporal out of over half a million dead.

How do you say he was a trained robot? I was in the USMC in 1970, stayed stateside, but in 2nd Force Recon at Camp Gieger, and never remember anyone telling me to dive on a grenade, in bootcamp or Recon. That’s just bullshit.[/quote]

Well you didn’t go to bootcamp in the early 90’s then. I went thru San Diego and San Onefre. Every monument throughout the training course are dedicated to enlisted men who died “serving their country”. Most of these deaths were attributed to grenades.

This is not to say they were ordered to jump or dive on them. Nor did any of the Drill instructers try to tell us that was the right thing to do. That was merely my interpretation of it. It may also have been the interpretation of some of my platoon mates–as we discussed it during “field day” events quite often and made light of it becasue that is what young men do when faced with such options.

We are a different generation than yours so we read between the lines a little differently–most often with cynicism and sarcasm.

43

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
olderguy wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
PGJ wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:
Every single person alive is the most important thing in his own “universe”.

Altruism and selflessness do not exist.

You are absolutely right. People only do good because it makes them “feel” good.

Corporal Jason Dunham just won the Medal of Honor for jumping on a grenade in Iraq and saving the lives of several other Marines. He died. Did that make him feel good? Self sacrafice. You are self-important.

You are selfish. Your statement says it all.

He jumped because he is a trained robot full of sentimentally phrased brainwashing. That?s all we got put into our heads in bootcamp–how to be a hero by jumping on a grenade to save some chump gunny’s ass. Are we supposed to get all teary-eyed because some poor corporal made a decision to die for a cause that may or may not have been relevant?

All people are self important. Otherwise why live? I do what I feel to be good because it fulfils the biological need satiate my ego.

All humans do this. It is part of our biology. It is called self preservation and our push for survival dictates it. Don’t be a victim of your biology. Embrace it.

This is not to say the individual is the only important entity. We exist as social beings so we have to reconcile our individuality with the community we exist in. We could no more survive as individuals as we could if we relied on others to breathe for us.

This being said, quit spouting meaningless rhetoric to braindead internet posters. The whole of existance doesn’t rotate aound the US military–especially one corporal out of over half a million dead.

How do you say he was a trained robot? I was in the USMC in 1970, stayed stateside, but in 2nd Force Recon at Camp Gieger, and never remember anyone telling me to dive on a grenade, in bootcamp or Recon. That’s just bullshit.

Well you didn’t go to bootcamp in the early 90’s then. I went thru San Diego and San Onefre. Every monument throughout the training course are dedicated to enlisted men who died “serving their country”. Most of these deaths were attributed to grenades.

This is not to say they were ordered to jump or dive on them. Nor did any of the Drill instructers try to tell us that was the right thing to do. That was merely my interpretation of it. It may also have been the interpretation of some of my platoon mates–as we discussed it during “field day” events quite often and made light of it becasue that is what young men do when faced with such options.

We are a different generation than yours so we read between the lines a little differently–most often with cynicism and sarcasm.[/quote]

I assume by saying you were of a different generation meant you had your finger a “little more on the pulse” of things than we did. Maybe you don’t remember the protest marches. Perhaps before your time. Where are they now?

As far a this grenade thing, why did it have to be about some “chump” Gunny?
And his being a trained robot doing it out of sentimentality? Are you a fuckin retard? Do you have any idea how much balls it takes to do that? I don’t. But I can only imagine. I wouldn’t want to be in the field with you dude. I guess you are to smart to dive on a grenade.

And that crock of shit about all the monuments being about Marines killed by grenades. Are you kidding?

And that bull shit about “my interpretation of it and perhaps my platoon mates as we discussed it during fuckin field day”. And you guys made light of it as well. WOW.I never remember discussing diving on a grenade with anyone let alone making light of it. Maybe that was our generation.

Your post is total and complete bull shit and if you are trying to come off as some intellectual, IMHO you failed miserably. You sound like quite the douche-bag. It’s guy like you who make me feel happy I didn’t further my education. Really, take a look at that CRAP you posted. Yeow.

Semper Fi, Einstein

44

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
I agree.

If you love freedom and democracy, you agree with Bush.
If you don’t, you should simply shut up ! ! !

Why don’t these morans get that. It’s simple enough isn’t it?[/quote]

Yeehaw! Its about time someone smart came on the boards.

If it wasn’t for Bush, this country would have no freedom whatsoever.

I mean think about it: He put into action the Patriot act, which gives the government the right to spy on any citizens without needing approval from the justice system.

Not only that, but his party (I’m assuming he had a part in this) is also pushing for Conscription. Giving the military the right to enlist any available citizens.

And then there is the rest of this:

“The Bush administration doesn’t believe that people in the US should have the right to travel where they want. It believes that the US government has the authority to restrict freedom of movement and to enforce laws selectively to punish people who do not agree with the administration’s foreign policy towards certain countries.”
http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/articleview/1149/1/97

And:

Bush and Gay Marriage.

Its all in the name of Freedom people! Everyone knows that when you restrict Freedom, you have more of it.

45

[quote]olderguy wrote:
I assume by saying you were of a different generation meant you had your finger a “little more on the pulse” of things than we did. Maybe you don’t remember the protest marches. Perhaps before your time. Where are they now?
[/quote]

No, not exactly. I meant we probably have a different sense of humor. You were faced with actually going to war. We for all our intents and purposes were not too worried about that. We probably should have been, but weren’t.

Brave or asinine? I would probably dive away from it and would hope that my comrades would do the same thing. I understand the idea of dampening the explosion with a vest but I don’t really trust those ancient things to work properly. I am more afraid of being wounded than I am of being blown apart.

I chose the gunny as a generic USMC rank. These are the ranks that tend to lead at the platoon and or company level. I don’t necessarily think of all gunnies as chumps just my opinions of some of them aren’t very high. I let my personal feelings of one or three of them affect my post. The sad truth is most of the enlisted leadership isn’t weeded out very well which leads to some turds leaking into the higher ranks–can you completely refute that?

This isn’t true? My memory must be very selective then.

Hey I don’t feel good about it. I was young and stupid once.

[quote]
Your post is total and complete bull shit and if you are trying to come off as some intellectual, IMHO you failed miserably. You sound like quite the douche-bag. It’s guy like you who make me feel happy I didn’t further my education. Really, take a look at that CRAP you posted. Yeow.

Semper Fi, Einstein[/quote]

Noted, however, you should not let other people like me control what you do with your life (like commitment to education, etc). Would you want your children or grand-children to skip out on an opportunity for an education because some douche-bag like me is arrogant and thinks he knows such-and-such? These are the actions of robots.

46

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
olderguy wrote:
I assume by saying you were of a different generation meant you had your finger a “little more on the pulse” of things than we did. Maybe you don’t remember the protest marches. Perhaps before your time. Where are they now?

No, not exactly. I meant we probably have a different sense of humor. You were faced with actually going to war. We for all our intents and purposes were not too worried about that. We probably should have been, but weren’t.

As far a this grenade thing, why did it have to be about some “chump” Gunny?
And his being a trained robot doing it out of sentimentality? Are you a fuckin retard? Do you have any idea how much balls it takes to do that? I don’t. But I can only imagine. I wouldn’t want to be in the field with you dude. I guess you are to smart to dive on a grenade.

Brave or asinine? I would probably dive away from it and would hope that my comrades would do the same thing. I understand the idea of dampening the explosion with a vest but I don’t really trust those ancient things to work properly. I am more afraid of being wounded than I am of being blown apart.

I chose the gunny as a generic USMC rank. These are the ranks that tend to lead at the platoon and or company level. I don’t necessarily think of all gunnies as chumps just my opinions of some of them aren’t very high. I let my personal feelings of one or three of them affect my post. The sad truth is most of the enlisted leadership isn’t weeded out very well which leads to some turds leaking into the higher ranks–can you completely refute that?

And that crock of shit about all the monuments being about Marines killed by grenades. Are you kidding?

This isn’t true? My memory must be very selective then.

WOW.I never remember discussing diving on a grenade with anyone let alone making light of it. Maybe that was our generation.

Hey I don’t feel good about it. I was young and stupid once.

Your post is total and complete bull shit and if you are trying to come off as some intellectual, IMHO you failed miserably. You sound like quite the douche-bag. It’s guy like you who make me feel happy I didn’t further my education. Really, take a look at that CRAP you posted. Yeow.

Semper Fi, Einstein

Noted, however, you should not let other people like me control what you do with your life (like commitment to education, etc). Would you want your children or grand-children to skip out on an opportunity for an education because some douche-bag like me is arrogant and thinks he knows such-and-such? These are the actions of robots.[/quote]

I’ve taken some meds so let me try to get through this without resorting to vulgarity.

I’m sure we have a different view of what is funny and what isn’t. Having said that, I will agree with you that there are some people of rank who are hard to take orders from. I spent my last year driving for a Vice Admiral, (CINCLANTFLT, NORFORK,VA), so I had very good duty and was pretty much left alone. I did encounter my fair share of guys who got rank by just being there.

There is no question in my mind that it was a brave a certainly selfless thing to do. It’s not like a grenade comes through the window, (I don’t know the circumstances, whatever), you then light up a smoke and figure out your next move. If everyone was a brainwashed robot like you claim, wouldn’t there be 4 or 5 guys on the pile? So I think you are in a league of your own when you give your life to save your friends, and I would think most other people feel the same way. I’m betting you are in the minority.

And I’m not some gung-ho war monger. I had a first hand look at what war does to you as my father was a British Commando during WWII, and spent a lot of time looking out the back window. He rarely talked about it unless I asked him stupid kid questions like “did you ever shoot someone” which he said he didn’t. He was a mortarman so I guess he had enough to think about. He retired at 58 and drank himself to death at 64. He should of gotten a part time job I guess.
When I think about being in combat, I imagine I might be crying for my mom or losing control of my bowels and just being plain un John Wayne like. So if I was an honest guy, I wouldn’t talk about it to much either.
See ya,
P.S. Maybe I’ll look into night courses next week. Not really

47

[quote]olderguy wrote:
There is no question in my mind that it was a brave a certainly selfless thing to do. It’s not like a grenade comes through the window, (I don’t know the circumstances, whatever), you then light up a smoke and figure out your next move. If everyone was a brainwashed robot like you claim, wouldn’t there be 4 or 5 guys on the pile? So I think you are in a league of your own when you give your life to save your friends, and I would think most other people feel the same way. I’m betting you are in the minority.
[/quote]

I do not know nor do I pretend to know what was going thru this guys head at the moment he decided to take the plunge. Maybe he was suicidal, maybe he fancied himself a hero destined for a purple-heart or a posthumous medal of honor. There are many speculations one could make. I should have been clearer that I was only speculating that it was attributed to brainwashing. The fact that I have memories of these stories being told makes me question the motives and the reasons–not because I want to piss allover this guy’s memory. I know at least a handful of my platoon mates from bootcamp that would have done this because they were the people who joined the corps because their parents were nonexistent to them and the only real family they ever knew was the corps. Do you think this is far-fetched?

I find little use in waxing sentimental about the course of events in people’s lives but find it more interesting to speculate about it.

48

[quote]PGJ wrote:
Corporal Jason Dunham just won the Medal of Honor for jumping on a grenade in Iraq and saving the lives of several other Marines. He died. Did that make him feel good? Self sacrafice. You are self-important.

You are selfish. Your statement says it all. [/quote]

If you don’t think it made him feel “good”, relatively speaking, then ask yourself how he would feel right now if he hadn’t leaped on that grenade, and had had to watch his buddies die. Probably like shit, yeh? Guess what: He was, in all likelyhood, acting in the way that brought him the most happiness and the least amount of pain. To imagine otherwise would be to leave behind all rationality and science and enter the realm of pure fantasy.

[quote]PGJ wrote:
What kind of pseudo-intellectual bullshit is that? That may be true for yourself, but don’t even think for a minute it applies to everyone. Tell that to a fireman who runs into burning buildings to save people. Tell that to a corpsman or medic who exposes himself to enemy fire to render aid to a fallen comrad. [/quote]

“That bullshit” is known as the theory of “psychological egoism” or “the doctrine of natural self-interest” or any one of various other names. It is the foundation of all individualist schools of thought, and numerous schools of capitalist economic theory. Opposing theories of human action form the basis of socialist ideologies and religion.

You would do well to acquaint yourself with it:

I also suspect that you could benefit immensely from reading How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World: A Handbook for Personal Liberty, by Harry Browne, but you won’t, which is a damn shame.

49

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
If you don’t think it made him feel “good”, relatively speaking,[/quote]

Wtf are you talking about? How long does it take a grenade to go off? A few seconds or something?

How the hell would he even have the time to “feel good”? In a combat situation with seconds to spare before the grenade going off?

I think he would feel pretty dead anyway or slowly dying in a hospital. Had he not jumped on the grenade.

50

[quote]Petedacook wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
I agree.

If you love freedom and democracy, you agree with Bush.
If you don’t, you should simply shut up ! ! !

Why don’t these morans get that. It’s simple enough isn’t it?

Well, how does it feel to find your opinion in the minority of opinions in the US?

Or did you fail to realize the majority of Americans do not agree with bush?

[/quote]

More people watch American Idol every week than voted in the election. Public opinion is not a good indicator of national policy. Spare me the Democracy line. We don’t live in a democracy. We live in a Republic. Your average American doesn’t understand enough to form a logical national defense strategy.

I do not agree that if you don’t agree with the President you are unpatriotic. I do believe there are people who do hate this nation and go out of their way to criticize and slander the President for EVERY THING HE DOES.

51

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Corporal Jason Dunham just won the Medal of Honor for jumping on a grenade in Iraq and saving the lives of several other Marines. He died. Did that make him feel good? Self sacrafice. You are self-important.

You are selfish. Your statement says it all.

If you don’t think it made him feel “good”, relatively speaking, then ask yourself how he would feel right now if he hadn’t leaped on that grenade, and had had to watch his buddies die. Probably like shit, yeh? Guess what: He was, in all likelyhood, acting in the way that brought him the most happiness and the least amount of pain. To imagine otherwise would be to leave behind all rationality and science and enter the realm of pure fantasy.

PGJ wrote:
What kind of pseudo-intellectual bullshit is that? That may be true for yourself, but don’t even think for a minute it applies to everyone. Tell that to a fireman who runs into burning buildings to save people. Tell that to a corpsman or medic who exposes himself to enemy fire to render aid to a fallen comrad.

“That bullshit” is known as the theory of “psychological egoism” or “the doctrine of natural self-interest” or any one of various other names. It is the foundation of all individualist schools of thought, and numerous schools of capitalist economic theory. Opposing theories of human action form the basis of socialist ideologies and religion.

You would do well to acquaint yourself with it:

I also suspect that you could benefit immensely from reading How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World: A Handbook for Personal Liberty, by Harry Browne, but you won’t, which is a damn shame.

http://www.amazon.com/How-Found-Freedom-Unfree-World/dp/0965603679[/quote]

Congratulations, you found “scientific” proof to justify your selfishness. It’s crap psychobable. EVERYONE is not selfish. YOU may be, and in YOUR mind it makes sense. But don’t EVER think for a second it applies to everyone. Every post you write you gives proof to my point that you and liftus and ssn are supremely selfish and really don’t care about anything but you. Waste of space.