[quote]Chushin wrote:
Perhaps your energy would be better spent confronting all those Muslims (including the imams with their death sentence fatwas) who somehow don’t seem to know this.
Perhaps they didn’t get that memo?
Then again, since they are some of Islam’s leaders, and you admit you’re not the most devout of Muslims, perhaps YOU are mistaken.[/quote]
No, I am not mistaken. People who do not realize such leaders are corrupt and wrong are the ones who are mistaken.
And if I could confront such Muslims: I would. But sadly very few speak English; and I don’t want to be killed for questioning them. Seeing how that is how things go in places like Iran - where these leaders come from. And just like many who like to bash Islam: Many Muslims are too stubbornly and willingly ignorant to accept anything new.
And when I say I am not a devout Muslim: that is because I have spent too much of my life not bound down by a religious text, I have a tattoo (shirk; I modified God’s creation), and I like a good beer (haram; Beer is not halal). I have a fair amount of knowledge on the subject, though, and I have read many a book about Islam. And on top of that I have spent quite a bit of time actually living in the middle east, in one of the better countries, Egypt.
Muslims are violent, terrorist extremists
Terrorism cannot be justified under any valid interpretation of the Islamic faith. The entire Qur’an, taken as a complete text, gives a message of hope, faith, and peace to a faith community of one billion people. The overwhelming message is that peace is to be found through faith in God, and justice among fellow human beings. Muslim leaders and scholars do speak out against terrorism in all its forms, and offer explanations of misinterpreted or twisted teachings.
[/quote]
The corrupt leaders argument is another rationalization that is used to avoid taking a critical look at islam itself. The corrupt leasers argument leaves more questions than answers. Why don’t all religions have this problem? Why is it that followers of a religion that is supposed to be peaceful are so easily led astray?
The corrupt leaders argument opens the door to this conclusion. That a mind filled with islam is a fertile field for corrupt leaders to sow their seeds of hate.
The entire koran taken as a complete text is a mish mash of sayings, many of which are plagiarized from other sources. That is why many Koran passages abruptly end in what seems to be the middle of a sentence. About every fifth sentence ends like that. So about twenty percent of the koran is gibberish.
You are blind to the contradictions of what you are writing. You are coming up with common talking points that are badly flawed. Think about what you wrote about the koran being difficult to understand when it is translated from Arabic into another language. Then read what you wrote.
“And let’s remember: The middle east’s Muslim population only makes up about 20% of the total Muslim population. And they are the ones we hear about the most.”
You say that they are the ones who are best prepared to properly understand the koran because they are the most fluent in the language it is written in. Then you admit that they are the ones who cause the most trouble. Think about that.
Islam does not teach violence no matter how many times people want to take Surahs OUT OF CONTEXT in the Quran and say that shows Islam supports violence.
[/quote]
Perhaps your energy would be better spent confronting all those Muslims (including the imams with their death sentence fatwas) who somehow don’t seem to know this.
Perhaps they didn’t get that memo?
Then again, since they are some of Islam’s leaders, and you admit you’re not the most devout of Muslims, perhaps YOU are mistaken.[/quote]
Islam certainly provides for violence against the infidel unless the infidel is subservient.
Thankfully most people that are labeled Muslims are not true believers.
These facts can only be denied by those who are ignorant or wish to deceive.
The “context” argument is old and wore out. There are plenty enough surahs that not only say to commit an act of violence but even go into details such as which person or group of people and how to commit that act of violence for a context to not be necessary for us to understand what is being instructed.
[/quote]
I have never seen anybody provide a Surah that 100% says what they are saying it says.
[quote]
The koran says you are a muslim when you say you are. So the “they’re not true muslims” argument contradicts the koran. It is just a rationalization used to avoid facing up to the fact that islam is vicious. [/quote]
I am saying that terrorists are not practicing ‘true’ Islam. Islam does not say murder is ‘ok’.
I do not like posting verses of Surahs because I feel they can be misinterpreted… but:
quote …who do not invoke any god but Allah nor kill a soul, which Allah has forbidden, unjustly, nor commit adultery. He who does this shall be punished for his sin,
(Al-Furqan:69) and his torment shall be doubled on the Day of Resurrection, and he shall abide in a state of ignominy[/quote]
And yes, the way the Quran is laid out confuses me sometimes too.
[quote]
The concept of submission is a big part of the problem. It is based upon a concept of god as a divine dictator. God is our dictator therefore we must submit ourselves to his dictates. Where do we find his dictate? In the koran. Since the koran is the word of god, our divine dictator who we submit ourselves to, to not take it literally is to go against god. Unless of course a particular passage from the koran is one the mohammad told us is taqqiyah for the kuffar. [/quote]
To misinterpret it blatantly to support one’s political agenda is also going against god.
[quote]
Most muslims are not Arabs and do not speak Arabic. So what you are telling us is the majority of muslims cannot and do not understand the koran properly because they do not speak Arabic. Therefore the people who are best able to understand the koran properly and practice the most authentic version of islam are the Arabs. Amongst the Arabs the ones whose dialect would be the closest to the one used in the koran are the Saudis. So using your reasoning the Saudis have the most authentic version of islam because they have the fullest understanding of the koran. [/quote]
Nope. I was not saying the majority of Muslims cannot understand the Quran. Obviously most Muslims are taught traditional Arabic in schools (if they have them) but there is also a difference between traditional/classic/Quranic Arabic and many of the dialects found today. My wife speaks Egyptian Arabic and can sometimes not understand certain words or parts of classic Arabic.
This shows how many different dialects of Arabic there are:
And on top of that, maybe I should have been more clear, but I was saying that it is foolish for somebody who CANNOT read Arabic to rely SOLELY on the translations of the Quran to support their already biased and political agenda.
I cannot read Arabic yet but when I can; I will only read the Quran in Arabic. My wife has told me that’s how it’s meant to be read and that the translations cannot be assumed 100% accurate. Which is completely understandable… very few languages translate to one another word for word.
[quote]
Another way we can use your reasoning is we can say perhaps the reason why islam is more moderate in places like Turkey or Indonesia is because the locals don’t understand the koran properly because they are only getting a translation. [/quote]
I do not know how countries like Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Turkey, or Indonesia learn about the Quran. It is possible and probable that there are also translations or that they are taught it (Arabic) in school. There’s a chance that it could rely completely on word of mouth in certain places, too, however, I don’t know and I won’t claim I do, as I’ve never lived in any of those places.
And as a side note: I think calling Turkey moderate might be fitting: but it certainly was not once upon a time. The entire reason my Great Grandfather came to the USA was because of the Armenian Genocide - but that is a whole other discussion.
[quote]
Last but not least. All that preacher would be doing by burning korans is reflecting ideas and beliefs that are within the koran itself. The koran teaches to reject others beliefs as inferior. What goes around comes around. If muslims gained wisdom from their religion they would admit that they themselves have been guilty of intolerance and bigotry therefore they have no right to be angry when someone does it back to them.[/quote]
Sorry, but I believe this Surah’s verse disagrees with you quite clearly, and again , while I don’t like just posting verses of Surahs, I will this time, too:
[quote]Al-Kafiroon :6
Abdul Daryabadi : Your requital shall be yours, and my requital shall be mine.
Dr. Mohsin : “To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islâmic Monotheism).”
Pickthal : Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
Yusuf Ali : To you be your Way, and to me mine.[/quote]
The Quran teaches the opposite of religious intolerance; whether modern day Suadi Arabia or Iran do or do not does not matter, because the Quran clearly shows to be tolerant.
Islam itself is not vicious and it is not ‘bad’. People who ‘practice’ Islam that clearly misinterpret or twist the Quran; they are where the problem lies.
The corrupt leaders argument is another rationalization that is used to avoid taking a critical look at islam itself. The corrupt leasers argument leaves more questions than answers. Why don’t all religions have this problem?
[/quote]
No, like I said in my other post, it is those who CLEARLY misinterpret or twist the Quran for THEIR POLITICAL AGENDA that is the problem. On both sides.
And for the record: Many other religions once did have such problems. Such as Christianity.
Lack of education and the government that controls them.
A poverty-stricken mind with little to no education that is threatened with death if they don’t agree with the leaders, you mean (Like in Iran)?
[quote]
The entire koran taken as a complete text is a mish mash of sayings, many of which are plagiarized from other sources. That is why many Koran passages abruptly end in what seems to be the middle of a sentence. About every fifth sentence ends like that. So about twenty percent of the koran is gibberish. [/quote]
It does have an odd layout, and it isn’t easy reading, but I think calling it gibberish is wrong. You may not understand it; but that doesn’t make it gibberish.
[quote]
You are blind to the contradictions of what you are writing. You are coming up with common talking points that are badly flawed. Think about what you wrote about the koran being difficult to understand when it is translated from Arabic into another language. Then read what you wrote.
“And let’s remember: The middle east’s Muslim population only makes up about 20% of the total Muslim population. And they are the ones we hear about the most.”
You say that they are the ones who are best prepared to properly understand the koran because they are the most fluent in the language it is written in. Then you admit that they are the ones who cause the most trouble. Think about that. [/quote]
quote …who do not invoke any god but Allah nor kill a soul, which Allah has forbidden, unjustly, nor commit adultery. He who does this shall be punished for his sin,
[/quote]
[/quote]
This instantly brings up three questions:
Is this passage invalidated by other passages?
and
Do infidels have a soul?
and
Is it unjust to kill a soul if they refuse to convert or pay the Dhimmi tax?
Edit: Note the sentence you quoted is really stating: …nor kill a soul unjustly, nor commit adultery. So there is massive interpretation allowed right there.
The “context” argument is old and wore out. There are plenty enough surahs that not only say to commit an act of violence but even go into details such as which person or group of people and how to commit that act of violence for a context to not be necessary for us to understand what is being instructed.
[/quote]
I have never seen anybody provide a Surah that 100% says what they are saying it says.
[quote]
The koran says you are a muslim when you say you are. So the “they’re not true muslims” argument contradicts the koran. It is just a rationalization used to avoid facing up to the fact that islam is vicious. [/quote]
I am saying that terrorists are not practicing ‘true’ Islam. Islam does not say murder is ‘ok’.
I do not like posting verses of Surahs because I feel they can be misinterpreted… but:
quote …who do not invoke any god but Allah nor kill a soul, which Allah has forbidden, unjustly, nor commit adultery. He who does this shall be punished for his sin,
(Al-Furqan:69) and his torment shall be doubled on the Day of Resurrection, and he shall abide in a state of ignominy[/quote]
And yes, the way the Quran is laid out confuses me sometimes too.
[quote]
The concept of submission is a big part of the problem. It is based upon a concept of god as a divine dictator. God is our dictator therefore we must submit ourselves to his dictates. Where do we find his dictate? In the koran. Since the koran is the word of god, our divine dictator who we submit ourselves to, to not take it literally is to go against god. Unless of course a particular passage from the koran is one the mohammad told us is taqqiyah for the kuffar. [/quote]
To misinterpret it blatantly to support one’s political agenda is also going against god.
[quote]
Most muslims are not Arabs and do not speak Arabic. So what you are telling us is the majority of muslims cannot and do not understand the koran properly because they do not speak Arabic. Therefore the people who are best able to understand the koran properly and practice the most authentic version of islam are the Arabs. Amongst the Arabs the ones whose dialect would be the closest to the one used in the koran are the Saudis. So using your reasoning the Saudis have the most authentic version of islam because they have the fullest understanding of the koran. [/quote]
Nope. I was not saying the majority of Muslims cannot understand the Quran. Obviously most Muslims are taught traditional Arabic in schools (if they have them) but there is also a difference between traditional/classic/Quranic Arabic and many of the dialects found today. My wife speaks Egyptian Arabic and can sometimes not understand certain words or parts of classic Arabic.
This shows how many different dialects of Arabic there are:
And on top of that, maybe I should have been more clear, but I was saying that it is foolish for somebody who CANNOT read Arabic to rely SOLELY on the translations of the Quran to support their already biased and political agenda.
I cannot read Arabic yet but when I can; I will only read the Quran in Arabic. My wife has told me that’s how it’s meant to be read and that the translations cannot be assumed 100% accurate. Which is completely understandable… very few languages translate to one another word for word.
[quote]
Another way we can use your reasoning is we can say perhaps the reason why islam is more moderate in places like Turkey or Indonesia is because the locals don’t understand the koran properly because they are only getting a translation. [/quote]
I do not know how countries like Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Turkey, or Indonesia learn about the Quran. It is possible and probable that there are also translations or that they are taught it (Arabic) in school. There’s a chance that it could rely completely on word of mouth in certain places, too, however, I don’t know and I won’t claim I do, as I’ve never lived in any of those places.
And as a side note: I think calling Turkey moderate might be fitting: but it certainly was not once upon a time. The entire reason my Great Grandfather came to the USA was because of the Armenian Genocide - but that is a whole other discussion.
[quote]
Last but not least. All that preacher would be doing by burning korans is reflecting ideas and beliefs that are within the koran itself. The koran teaches to reject others beliefs as inferior. What goes around comes around. If muslims gained wisdom from their religion they would admit that they themselves have been guilty of intolerance and bigotry therefore they have no right to be angry when someone does it back to them.[/quote]
Sorry, but I believe this Surah’s verse disagrees with you quite clearly, and again , while I don’t like just posting verses of Surahs, I will this time, too:
[quote]Al-Kafiroon :6
Abdul Daryabadi : Your requital shall be yours, and my requital shall be mine.
Dr. Mohsin : “To you be your religion, and to me my religion (IslÃ?¢mic Monotheism).”
Pickthal : Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
Yusuf Ali : To you be your Way, and to me mine.[/quote]
The Quran teaches the opposite of religious intolerance; whether modern day Suadi Arabia or Iran do or do not does not matter, because the Quran clearly shows to be tolerant.
Islam itself is not vicious and it is not ‘bad’. People who ‘practice’ Islam that clearly misinterpret or twist the Quran; they are where the problem lies.[/quote]
So… What do you have to say about these then?
4.89 : They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
9.5: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
8.12: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
17.16-17: When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet transgress; so that Allah’s word is proved true against them: then we destroy them utterly. How many generations have we destroyed after Noah? And enough is thy Lord to note and see the Sins of his servants.
Is this passage invalidated by other passages? [/quote]
No, it is not. One verse does not tell the whole story.
[quote]
2) Do infidels have a soul?
and[/quote]
Yes.
[quote]
3) Is it unjust to kill a soul if they refuse to convert or pay the Dhimmi tax?[/quote]
Duh, of course it is.
And this is why I didn’t want to post a verse. One verse does not tell the whole story. Some Surahs have hundreds of verses. This verse in specific offers little explanation as others address the issue.
Read this:
It answers all of your questions better than I can explain it.
4.89 : They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
9.5: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
8.12: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
17.16-17: When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet transgress; so that Allah’s word is proved true against them: then we destroy them utterly. How many generations have we destroyed after Noah? And enough is thy Lord to note and see the Sins of his servants.[/quote]
You’re one of the people I was talking about.
Have you read the entire Surah where these verses are found? You don’t even know the context in which these are said. And YES! Context matters despite what some idiots like to tell you.
I am not qualified to address each of these verses individually; I have not yet fully understood the entire Quran. And I highly doubt you do as well.
Seriously, the information is out there for you people, but instead you choose to believe anti-Islam websites and organisations telling you what Islam teaches and what the Quran teaches (I’m just GUESSING you got the verses off of an anti-Islam website with absolutely no explanation).
And when people like me come and try to defend Islam: you completely ignore any relevant information that we may provide.
The “context” argument is old and wore out. There are plenty enough surahs that not only say to commit an act of violence but even go into details such as which person or group of people and how to commit that act of violence for a context to not be necessary for us to understand what is being instructed.
[/quote]
I have never seen anybody provide a Surah that 100% says what they are saying it says.
[quote]
The koran says you are a muslim when you say you are. So the “they’re not true muslims” argument contradicts the koran. It is just a rationalization used to avoid facing up to the fact that islam is vicious. [/quote]
I am saying that terrorists are not practicing ‘true’ Islam. Islam does not say murder is ‘ok’.
I do not like posting verses of Surahs because I feel they can be misinterpreted… but:
quote …who do not invoke any god but Allah nor kill a soul, which Allah has forbidden, unjustly, nor commit adultery. He who does this shall be punished for his sin,
(Al-Furqan:69) and his torment shall be doubled on the Day of Resurrection, and he shall abide in a state of ignominy[/quote]
And yes, the way the Quran is laid out confuses me sometimes too.
[quote]
The concept of submission is a big part of the problem. It is based upon a concept of god as a divine dictator. God is our dictator therefore we must submit ourselves to his dictates. Where do we find his dictate? In the koran. Since the koran is the word of god, our divine dictator who we submit ourselves to, to not take it literally is to go against god. Unless of course a particular passage from the koran is one the mohammad told us is taqqiyah for the kuffar. [/quote]
To misinterpret it blatantly to support one’s political agenda is also going against god.
[quote]
Most muslims are not Arabs and do not speak Arabic. So what you are telling us is the majority of muslims cannot and do not understand the koran properly because they do not speak Arabic. Therefore the people who are best able to understand the koran properly and practice the most authentic version of islam are the Arabs. Amongst the Arabs the ones whose dialect would be the closest to the one used in the koran are the Saudis. So using your reasoning the Saudis have the most authentic version of islam because they have the fullest understanding of the koran. [/quote]
Nope. I was not saying the majority of Muslims cannot understand the Quran. Obviously most Muslims are taught traditional Arabic in schools (if they have them) but there is also a difference between traditional/classic/Quranic Arabic and many of the dialects found today. My wife speaks Egyptian Arabic and can sometimes not understand certain words or parts of classic Arabic.
This shows how many different dialects of Arabic there are:
And on top of that, maybe I should have been more clear, but I was saying that it is foolish for somebody who CANNOT read Arabic to rely SOLELY on the translations of the Quran to support their already biased and political agenda.
I cannot read Arabic yet but when I can; I will only read the Quran in Arabic. My wife has told me that’s how it’s meant to be read and that the translations cannot be assumed 100% accurate. Which is completely understandable… very few languages translate to one another word for word.
[quote]
Another way we can use your reasoning is we can say perhaps the reason why islam is more moderate in places like Turkey or Indonesia is because the locals don’t understand the koran properly because they are only getting a translation. [/quote]
I do not know how countries like Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Turkey, or Indonesia learn about the Quran. It is possible and probable that there are also translations or that they are taught it (Arabic) in school. There’s a chance that it could rely completely on word of mouth in certain places, too, however, I don’t know and I won’t claim I do, as I’ve never lived in any of those places.
And as a side note: I think calling Turkey moderate might be fitting: but it certainly was not once upon a time. The entire reason my Great Grandfather came to the USA was because of the Armenian Genocide - but that is a whole other discussion.
[quote]
Last but not least. All that preacher would be doing by burning korans is reflecting ideas and beliefs that are within the koran itself. The koran teaches to reject others beliefs as inferior. What goes around comes around. If muslims gained wisdom from their religion they would admit that they themselves have been guilty of intolerance and bigotry therefore they have no right to be angry when someone does it back to them.[/quote]
Sorry, but I believe this Surah’s verse disagrees with you quite clearly, and again , while I don’t like just posting verses of Surahs, I will this time, too:
[quote]Al-Kafiroon :6
Abdul Daryabadi : Your requital shall be yours, and my requital shall be mine.
Dr. Mohsin : “To you be your religion, and to me my religion (IslÃ?¢mic Monotheism).”
Pickthal : Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
Yusuf Ali : To you be your Way, and to me mine.[/quote]
The Quran teaches the opposite of religious intolerance; whether modern day Suadi Arabia or Iran do or do not does not matter, because the Quran clearly shows to be tolerant.
Islam itself is not vicious and it is not ‘bad’. People who ‘practice’ Islam that clearly misinterpret or twist the Quran; they are where the problem lies. [/quote]
In psychology there is a term for what you are doing here, it is called rationalization.
In psychology and logic, rationalization (or making excuses[1]) is a defense mechanism in which perceived controversial behaviors or feelings are explained in a rational or logical manner to avoid the true explanation, to differentiate from the original deterministic explanation, of the behavior or feeling in question.[2][3] It is also an informal fallacy of reasoning.[citation needed]
This process ranges from fully conscious (e.g. to present an external defense against ridicule from others) to mostly subconscious (e.g. to create a block against internal feelings of guilt).
Something related to it is called cognitive dissonance.
Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding conflicting ideas simultaneously. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance. They do this by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and actions.[2] Dissonance is also reduced by justifying, blaming, and denying.
When I listen to muslims talk about their religion I hear a lot of “justifying, blaming, and denying” to rationalize what we see happening with islam. A classic example of rationalization and cognitive dissonance is when muslims say that terrorism is not islam because the taking of “innocent life” is forbidden in the koran. The term “innocent life” is what is known as a “qualifying statement”. Qualify in this usage is “To modify, limit, or restrict, as by giving exceptions”.
So while the koran may say that it is wrong to “murder” which in this usage is defined as the taking of an “innocent life” no such protection is extended to non-“innocent life”.
ie “Al-Furqan:68) …who do not invoke any god but Allah nor kill a soul, which Allah has forbidden, unjustly,”
So while this does say that killing is forbidden, the prohibition is immediately modified to limit or restrict it’s protection to those cases where killing cannot be justified. Justifying is an act of cognitive dissonance.
Denying is an act of cognitive dissonance. You keep turning to semantics, telling us people aren’t getting the right message instead of just getting honest with us or yourself even and admit that there are some really hateful, vicious passages in the koran along with terrible examples of behavior in the al hadith. Denial is not the way to deal with a problem. To others who can see that denial it does not inspire confidence in them that the person with the problem will resolve it.
Blaming is an act of cognitive dissonance that feeds into the denial. Instead of admitting there is some nastiness in the koran you blame the nastiness on others who have twisted the meaning of the koran. With the worst culprits of twisting the koran being those who have taken it literally. Which makes no sense because to take something literally is to take it word for word or at face value.
Why is it that it is only the nasty bits always need to be filtered through some kind of interpreter who will water them down into something not so nasty? But all the peaceful bits that are so wonderful and lovey that you just want to hug yourself and feel all warm and fuzzy inside don’t need to be interpreted into something different from their literal meaning?
What the Turks did and in some ways are still doing to the Armenians is not exactly a unique or isolated incident. Justifications, rationalizations, blaming, denial are still being used by the Turks. When one of the most modern muslim nations acts like that it doesn’t inspire confidence.
In psychology there is a term for what you are doing here, it is called rationalization.
In psychology and logic, rationalization (or making excuses[1]) is a defense mechanism in which perceived controversial behaviors or feelings are explained in a rational or logical manner to avoid the true explanation, to differentiate from the original deterministic explanation, of the behavior or feeling in question.[2][3] It is also an informal fallacy of reasoning.[citation needed]
This process ranges from fully conscious (e.g. to present an external defense against ridicule from others) to mostly subconscious (e.g. to create a block against internal feelings of guilt).[/quote]
This would be true if I was avoiding the truth.
[quote]
Something related to it is called cognitive dissonance.
Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding conflicting ideas simultaneously. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance. They do this by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and actions.[2] Dissonance is also reduced by justifying, blaming, and denying.[/quote]
Mmk. But doesn’t anybody do this in this type of discussion?
[quote]
When I listen to muslims talk about their religion I hear a lot of “justifying, blaming, and denying” to rationalize what we see happening with islam. A classic example of rationalization and cognitive dissonance is when muslims say that terrorism is not islam because the taking of “innocent life” is forbidden in the koran.[/quote]
How do you feel it is possible to talk about such a thing without justifying, blaming, or denying?
To counter somebody’s argument against Islam; you would need to deny what they had said.
[quote] The term “innocent life” is what is known as a “qualifying statement”. Qualify in this usage is “To modify, limit, or restrict, as by giving exceptions”.
So while the koran may say that it is wrong to “murder” which in this usage is defined as the taking of an “innocent life” no such protection is extended to non-“innocent life”.
ie “Al-Furqan:68) …who do not invoke any god but Allah nor kill a soul, which Allah has forbidden, unjustly,”
So while this does say that killing is forbidden, the prohibition is immediately modified to limit or restrict it’s protection to those cases where killing cannot be justified. Justifying is an act of cognitive dissonance. [/quote]
And you will find elsewhere in the Quran that capital punishment is allowed IF murder was committed. That is why ‘unjustly’ is placed in there. Because it is ‘just’ to execute somebody who has committed the act of Murder. That is the condition you speak of.
[quote]
Denying is an act of cognitive dissonance. You keep turning to semantics, telling us people aren’t getting the right message instead of just getting honest with us or yourself even and admit that there are some really hateful, vicious passages in the koran along with terrible examples of behavior in the al hadith. Denial is not the way to deal with a problem. To others who can see that denial it does not inspire confidence in them that the person with the problem will resolve it. [/quote]
There are some passages that can easily be seen as bad, yeah. However, it does not mean I am in denial just because I do not agree with your point of view. I am denying that Islam is inherently evil, because I believe it to be otherwise.
I firmly believe the context in the Quran is everything.
[quote]
Blaming is an act of cognitive dissonance that feeds into the denial. Instead of admitting there is some nastiness in the koran you blame the nastiness on others who have twisted the meaning of the koran. With the worst culprits of twisting the koran being those who have taken it literally. Which makes no sense because to take something literally is to take it word for word or at face value.[/quote] Maybe it does sound silly; but I firmly believe context in the Quran is very important. And plus… aren’t you also doing most of the things you say I am? Isn’t that how something is discussed?
[quote]
Why is it that it is only the nasty bits always need to be filtered through some kind of interpreter who will water them down into something not so nasty? But all the peaceful bits that are so wonderful and lovey that you just want to hug yourself and feel all warm and fuzzy inside don’t need to be interpreted into something different from their literal meaning? [/quote]
I reference other sites because I have little to no skills when it comes to debating anything, and because I will admit that I do not know the Quran as well as those who study it. Of course I cannot explain it as well as them.
[quote]
What the Turks did and in some ways are still doing to the Armenians is not exactly a unique or isolated incident. Justifications, rationalizations, blaming, denial are still being used by the Turks. When one of the most modern muslim nations acts like that it doesn’t inspire confidence. [/quote]
Nor does anything Muslims have done in the last 10 years. Yeah, I get it. I’m not denying that.
But I still believe Islam is inherently good; I believe any religion that I know of (except maybe Satanism… hah) is inherently good.
The corrupt leaders argument is another rationalization that is used to avoid taking a critical look at islam itself. The corrupt leasers argument leaves more questions than answers. Why don’t all religions have this problem?
[/quote]
No, like I said in my other post, it is those who CLEARLY misinterpret or twist the Quran for THEIR POLITICAL AGENDA that is the problem. On both sides.
And for the record: Many other religions once did have such problems. Such as Christianity. [/quote]
The Christianity once had these problems argument is a comparison that is only used so long as it is convenient. When this comparison becomes a liability it is quickly ignored. For the first three centuries of Christianity it had none of the problems that islam has had since it’s beginning.
It was only after Christianity was incorporated as the state religion by the Romans that it became like islam has always been. The reason why is islam is not just a religion it is also a political system. The reason why Christianity has gotten better is because the Protestant reformation started the process of returning Christianity to it’s roots as a system of spirituality that was independent of the state. In islam the state and islam are one. Islam is based on the Roman model of using religion to make people obedient servants of the state.
Christianity did not go off the rails because it was fundamentally flawed like islam is fundamentally flawed. That is why islam is not going to sort itself out like christianity has.
Lack of education and the government that controls them. [/quote]
The doctors who drove a flaming jeep into Glasgow airport had a lot of education and did not have a “corrupt islamic” government controlling them. So you are wrong.
A poverty-stricken mind with little to no education that is threatened with death if they don’t agree with the leaders, you mean (Like in Iran)? [/quote]
The Bin Laden family are billionaires. The father of the Detroit underwear bomber was a college student and his father is a wealthy doctor in Nigeria. The London subway bombers they didn’t grow up in poverty nor did they live in a theocracy like Iran where they could not disagree with “leaders”.
[quote]
The entire koran taken as a complete text is a mish mash of sayings, many of which are plagiarized from other sources. That is why many Koran passages abruptly end in what seems to be the middle of a sentence. About every fifth sentence ends like that. So about twenty percent of the koran is gibberish. [/quote]
It does have an odd layout, and it isn’t easy reading, but I think calling it gibberish is wrong. You may not understand it; but that doesn’t make it gibberish.
[quote]
You are blind to the contradictions of what you are writing. You are coming up with common talking points that are badly flawed. Think about what you wrote about the koran being difficult to understand when it is translated from Arabic into another language. Then read what you wrote.
“And let’s remember: The middle east’s Muslim population only makes up about 20% of the total Muslim population. And they are the ones we hear about the most.”
You say that they are the ones who are best prepared to properly understand the koran because they are the most fluent in the language it is written in. Then you admit that they are the ones who cause the most trouble. Think about that. [/quote]
No, see my above post.[/quote]
No. About twenty percent of it is gibberish because it is sayings that were taken from other sources and they are incomplete.
So, the fact that these suras, even though as you say they are taken out of context, still exsist. All i was trying to do is point out the fact that they are the passages used by Islamic Clerics and Government Leaders to mislead the general populace of Arabic countries, much as the Catholic Church used to misinform and mislead the people of Europe up untill the Reformation and split of the Norweigans and Germans into Lutheranism and Calvanism. What we are trying to say is that there are a group of people ho fuck things up for the rest of you.
I like to compare Islam to Naziism. Not all Nazis were bad, many were poor ass people forced into the military in order to feed themselves and their families, much as many people in the Arabian nations are misled by the messages of hate spewed out by those in charge.
Christianity, my religion, WELS Lutheranism in particular, is not free of this either. Several Prime examples exsist of nutjobs as preachers and leaders of churches and cults, Reverand Wright and that nutjob with the Koran burning as prime examples.
4.89 : They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
9.5: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
8.12: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
17.16-17: When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet transgress; so that Allah’s word is proved true against them: then we destroy them utterly. How many generations have we destroyed after Noah? And enough is thy Lord to note and see the Sins of his servants.[/quote]
You’re one of the people I was talking about.
Have you read the entire Surah where these verses are found? You don’t even know the context in which these are said. And YES! Context matters despite what some idiots like to tell you.
I am not qualified to address each of these verses individually; I have not yet fully understood the entire Quran. And I highly doubt you do as well.
Seriously, the information is out there for you people, but instead you choose to believe anti-Islam websites and organisations telling you what Islam teaches and what the Quran teaches (I’m just GUESSING you got the verses off of an anti-Islam website with absolutely no explanation).
And when people like me come and try to defend Islam: you completely ignore any relevant information that we may provide.
[/quote]
i’ve actually looked at most of your links and find them interesting. If you and the fellow 80 percent of muslims believe this, then you should get your shit together and fuck abidinjhad’s shit up. and all the other nutcases that get half-retarted and kids who have down-syndrome to blow themselves up with the promise of some fucking lie about recieving 72 virgins.
Take care of that shit, and stop giving us Americans reasons to go over to some armpit third world country to find some douche bags who hide in canves and fuck goats for fun.
The Christianity once had these problems argument is a comparison that is only used so long as it is convenient. When this comparison becomes a liability it is quickly ignored. For the first three centuries of Christianity it had none of the problems that islam has had since it’s beginning.
It was only after Christianity was incorporated as the state religion by the Romans that it became like islam has always been. The reason why is islam is not just a religion it is also a political system. The reason why Christianity has gotten better is because the Protestant reformation started the process of returning Christianity to it’s roots as a system of spirituality that was independent of the state. In islam the state and islam are one. Islam is based on the Roman model of using religion to make people obedient servants of the state. [/quote]
Yes. I actually agree with you here. However, there are movements in Egypt of separating the mosque from the state – but progress will be slow. And God knows if it will ever get anywhere.
[quote]
Christianity did not go off the rails because it was fundamentally flawed like islam is fundamentally flawed. That is why islam is not going to sort itself out like christianity has. [/quote]
I think Islam won’t sort itself out because of the cultures that people see Islam as. Cultures in these countries is not going to fade away over night.
[quote]
The doctors who drove a flaming jeep into Glasgow airport had a lot of education and did not have a “corrupt islamic” government controlling them. So you are wrong.
The Bin Laden family are billionaires. The father of the Detroit underwear bomber was a college student and his father is a wealthy doctor in Nigeria. The London subway bombers they didn’t grow up in poverty nor did they live in a theocracy like Iran where they could not disagree with “leaders”. [/quote]
You keep referring to the terrorists and I have thought you were referring to every day Muslims in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, etc. It is no secret that the terrorists have been educated and trained.
–
Sifu, can we move to PM? I’d like to ask you some things about your thoughts; but in a more private matter.
I’d like to stop posting in this thread and save myself the headache. I am not experienced enough to be discussing it in this manner.
However, I think everybody should read the links I have posted. They do have good information and do clear quite a few things up.
[quote]wiscredneck wrote:
So, the fact that these suras, even though as you say they are taken out of context, still exsist. All i was trying to do is point out the fact that they are the passages used by Islamic Clerics and Government Leaders to mislead the general populace of Arabic countries, much as the Catholic Church used to misinform and mislead the people of Europe up untill the Reformation and split of the Norweigans and Germans into Lutheranism and Calvanism. What we are trying to say is that there are a group of people ho fuck things up for the rest of you.
I like to compare Islam to Naziism. Not all Nazis were bad, many were poor ass people forced into the military in order to feed themselves and their families, much as many people in the Arabian nations are misled by the messages of hate spewed out by those in charge.
Christianity, my religion, WELS Lutheranism in particular, is not free of this either. Several Prime examples exsist of nutjobs as preachers and leaders of churches and cults, Reverand Wright and that nutjob with the Koran burning as prime examples.[/quote]
[quote]
i’ve actually looked at most of your links and find them interesting. If you and the fellow 80 percent of muslims believe this, then you should get your shit together and fuck abidinjhad’s shit up. and all the other nutcases that get half-retarted and kids who have down-syndrome to blow themselves up with the promise of some fucking lie about recieving 72 virgins.
Take care of that shit, and stop giving us Americans reasons to go over to some armpit third world country to find some douche bags who hide in canves and fuck goats for fun.[/quote]
First of all; thanks a lot for clearing up your intentions.
Second of all; I wish I could stop Amidimadjab or however the hell you spell his name…
but I really just can’t. It would take more than all the Muslims in the world to stop him. Look at the Iranian elections… do you know how many protesters were arrested and subsequently executed? Absolutely terrible… I’m pretty sure only military action from a separate part of the world can stop that… it isn’t Islam causing that.
all I can do is try to spread the information I have been trying to spread. I will continue to do so at a later date: I am just not ready to do so right now on a level where I can debate it properly. All I can do is provide hyperlinks.
It really is unfortunate that so many extremists and problems exist and revolve around Islam: I really wish it wasn’t so. But all I can do is try to voice positive things about Islam and try to convince other Muslims (who are probably more knowledgeable about me specifically about Islam) to do the same.
I have read enough books on the matter, it is pretty clear cut Islam only allows for peace once it is the dominant religion. All the talk of peace only applies after conquest.
I have read enough books on the matter, it is pretty clear cut Islam only allows for peace once it is the dominant religion. All the talk of peace only applies after conquest.[/quote]
Its like a religious “freedom and democracy” in that regard, isnt it?
I have read enough books on the matter, it is pretty clear cut Islam only allows for peace once it is the dominant religion. All the talk of peace only applies after conquest.[/quote]
Its like a religious “freedom and democracy” in that regard, isnt it?
[/quote]
I am not sure what you are getting at, there have been plenty of warlike and peaceful democracies. It is kind of a mixed bag. Generally the more powerful a government grows the more aggressive it is, either domestically or internationally.
