.
[quote]orion wrote:
You can influence public opinion in America.
You cannot really influence suicide bombers with rallies.
[/quote]
What you are saying is, if we fight the so-called “bad islamic element” we risk making more…
and if we use political pressure, rallies or dialogue it will not stop them…
So, what should we do?
The Westboro Baptist Church are ready to carry the torch if Terry Jones backs down: http://www.ocala.com/article/20100909/ARTICLES/100909743/1412?Title=Westboro-Baptish-Church-to-burn-Qurans-if-Dove-doesn-t&TC=ar
This has nothing to do with not being intimidated by Muslim extremists, and everything to do with stirring shit up.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Let him burn the things. When the nutjobs riot because of the actions of a loon in Florida, it’ll show how Islam makes them insane.[/quote]
Islam does not makes Muslims insane.
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
Gee, I wonder if they would say that if you had converted to Catholicism.
Islam is not a bad religion. It’s the people that make it bad. The conflict between Sunni and Shi’a, the Taliban and their killing people (so called justice) during intermissions at soccer games is what gives Islam the bad reputation. In the 1500s and 1600s (and before) the same could be said of Catholicism with the rampant burning of heretics and the Inquisition. If the different parts of Islam could just agree to disagree, sort of how Christianity has, it would be fine.[/quote]
I agree. And add to the fact all Muslim countries are pretty much third world at this point.
Being poor really , really does not help the problem. Plus the poverty leads to a lack of education. It’s no wonder all of this happens.
[quote]Carl_ wrote:
The Westboro Baptist Church are ready to carry the torch if Terry Jones backs down: http://www.ocala.com/article/20100909/ARTICLES/100909743/1412?Title=Westboro-Baptish-Church-to-burn-Qurans-if-Dove-doesn-t&TC=ar
This has nothing to do with not being intimidated by Muslim extremists, and everything to do with stirring shit up.[/quote]
God works in mysterious ways. So we should not question his divine wisdom. Instead let us praise the lord and marvel at his divine wisdom. Though I must admit I am as baffled by our lord as you. I mean I could not think of a nicer group of people. Why Heavenly Father? Why would you want the muslims to be angry at the Westboro Baptist church? What divine plan do you have in mind for them?
Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, blessed be the name of the lord. I am now going to pray that this has a happy ending.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
You can influence public opinion in America.
You cannot really influence suicide bombers with rallies.
[/quote]
What you are saying is, if we fight the so-called “bad islamic element” we risk making more…
and if we use political pressure, rallies or dialogue it will not stop them…
So, what should we do?[/quote]
Depends on your goals.
When you simply want to stop them from killing you, stop being the hegemon of the Middle East.
If you want to keep world wide American dominace goin for a little while longer and milk the American public for all they are worth, use them as an excuse to intervene wherever you want to, for whatever reason.
A self sustaining fire does have its uses.
In the end those people are the useful idiots of useful, idiots the people that are using them are being used themselves. Maybe they even know this and go along with it to further their own agenda.
Or maybe I give people like Rumsfeld and Cheney too much credit and they believe their own propaganda, who knows?
[quote]krazykoukides wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
Gee, I wonder if they would say that if you had converted to Catholicism.
Islam is not a bad religion. It’s the people that make it bad. The conflict between Sunni and Shi’a, the Taliban and their killing people (so called justice) during intermissions at soccer games is what gives Islam the bad reputation. In the 1500s and 1600s (and before) the same could be said of Catholicism with the rampant burning of heretics and the Inquisition. If the different parts of Islam could just agree to disagree, sort of how Christianity has, it would be fine.[/quote]
I agree. And add to the fact all Muslim countries are pretty much third world at this point.
Being poor really , really does not help the problem. Plus the poverty leads to a lack of education. It’s no wonder all of this happens.
[/quote]
Yet most Islamic terrorists that have attacked western countries are educated and are from well off families.
Islam only tolerates subservient infidels. Thankfully most people that call themselves Muslims (or any other religion) are not true believers.
[quote]Big Banana wrote:
[quote]krazykoukides wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
Gee, I wonder if they would say that if you had converted to Catholicism.
Islam is not a bad religion. It’s the people that make it bad. The conflict between Sunni and Shi’a, the Taliban and their killing people (so called justice) during intermissions at soccer games is what gives Islam the bad reputation. In the 1500s and 1600s (and before) the same could be said of Catholicism with the rampant burning of heretics and the Inquisition. If the different parts of Islam could just agree to disagree, sort of how Christianity has, it would be fine.[/quote]
I agree. And add to the fact all Muslim countries are pretty much third world at this point.
Being poor really , really does not help the problem. Plus the poverty leads to a lack of education. It’s no wonder all of this happens.
[/quote]
Yet most Islamic terrorists that have attacked western countries are educated and are from well off families.
Islam only tolerates subservient infidels. Thankfully most people that call themselves Muslims (or any other religion) are not true believers.[/quote]
Yes, they’re educated HERE, in America!!! They learn about us to justify hating us. They go back with their superior AMERICAN education and tell everyone how horrible we are when I’m pretty sure while they were here they Americanized and did everything we do and had fun while doing it.
krazykoukides,
Is your wife a “submitter” by any chance?
I say let the pastor burn the Qur’an - I am Middle Eastern but not Muslim, by the way - because it IS a free speech issue just as building the Islamic community center IS a property rights issue.
However, the pastor should NOT be given ANY security/protection whatsoever. Why are we spending tax payer dollars for that shit? For something that is being unnecessarily created (tension by a tasteless act of burning a religious text) ?
People do have a right to free speech, but when you live in a society with many different beliefs and where people’s sensitivities deserve some respect, you should learn about exercising discretion: if you choose to threaten your neighbor with violence every fucking day, and he turns around and buys a shot gun and points it at you every chance he gets, guess what? YOU precipitated that. YOU caused that. People have a right to free speech but an audience has a right to REACT.
I say, let natural order dictate what happens. If the pastor wants to burn the Qur’an, piss off a bunch of Muslims, bring violence upon his congregation - and unfortunately, I bet upon our own troops abroad - let the court of public opinion point at the pastor and say, “You dumb fucking cunt. Look what hell you’ve raised.”
Why should he be protected?
[quote]Big Banana wrote:
Yet most Islamic terrorists that have attacked western countries are educated and are from well off families.
Islam only tolerates subservient infidels. Thankfully most people that call themselves Muslims (or any other religion) are not true believers.[/quote]
I was not talking solely about Islamic terrorists.
I was talking about the ignorance among most Muslims throughout much of the middle east being due to poverty and lack of education.
Yes, a lot of the Islamic terrorists are highly educated and trained. How else would they have done all they have?
[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
krazykoukides,
Is your wife a “submitter” by any chance?
I say let the pastor burn the Qur’an - I am Middle Eastern but not Muslim, by the way - because it IS a free speech issue just as building the Islamic community center IS a property rights issue.
However, the pastor should NOT be given ANY security/protection whatsoever. Why are we spending tax payer dollars for that shit? For something that is being unnecessarily created (tension by a tasteless act of burning a religious text) ?
People do have a right to free speech, but when you live in a society with many different beliefs and where people’s sensitivities deserve some respect, you should learn about exercising discretion: if you choose to threaten your neighbor with violence every fucking day, and he turns around and buys a shot gun and points it at you every chance he gets, guess what? YOU precipitated that. YOU caused that. People have a right to free speech but an audience has a right to REACT.
I say, let natural order dictate what happens. If the pastor wants to burn the Qur’an, piss off a bunch of Muslims, bring violence upon his congregation - and unfortunately, I bet upon our own troops abroad - let the court of public opinion point at the pastor and say, “You dumb fucking cunt. Look what hell you’ve raised.”
Why should he be protected?
[/quote]
What is your definition of ‘submitter’ ?
Because anybody who claims to be a ‘Muslim’ is a ‘submitter’ in the sense that Islam literally translates to “Submission to God”.
It is a free country - the pastor can do what he wants. If he does (he won’t now) burn the Quran - that is his own choice even if it is insensitive and it spreads hate.
That is not why I was angry about it. I was angry about it because of his SHEER IGNORANCE that he spreads and all the HATE that he spreads. PLUS I did not want it to go down because god knows somewhere some “Muslim” (note the quotes) would’ve hurt somebody.
Islam does not teach violence no matter how many times people want to take Surahs OUT OF CONTEXT in the Quran and say that shows Islam supports violence. I can take parts of the Bible out of context and say the Bible teaches violence too. It’s just bullshit. The Muslims committing mass murder are not TRUE Muslims… they are more of a CULT extremist group.
ANYBODY who takes a book WORD for WORD is an idiot, too. And especially the Quran because all English Qurans are translations of the original Arabic Quran. And if you know anything about Arabic, it is that many words do not translate well at all.
Please take the time to read this :
It debunks and explains why a lot of myths about Islam are untrue.
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
[quote]Big Banana wrote:
[quote]krazykoukides wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
Gee, I wonder if they would say that if you had converted to Catholicism.
Islam is not a bad religion. It’s the people that make it bad. The conflict between Sunni and Shi’a, the Taliban and their killing people (so called justice) during intermissions at soccer games is what gives Islam the bad reputation. In the 1500s and 1600s (and before) the same could be said of Catholicism with the rampant burning of heretics and the Inquisition. If the different parts of Islam could just agree to disagree, sort of how Christianity has, it would be fine.[/quote]
I agree. And add to the fact all Muslim countries are pretty much third world at this point.
Being poor really , really does not help the problem. Plus the poverty leads to a lack of education. It’s no wonder all of this happens.
[/quote]
Yet most Islamic terrorists that have attacked western countries are educated and are from well off families.
Islam only tolerates subservient infidels. Thankfully most people that call themselves Muslims (or any other religion) are not true believers.[/quote]
Yes, they’re educated HERE, in America!!! They learn about us to justify hating us. They go back with their superior AMERICAN education and tell everyone how horrible we are when I’m pretty sure while they were here they Americanized and did everything we do and had fun while doing it.[/quote]
You have touched upon something that is not appreciated or recognized here in the west. People do not appreciate the fact that young muslims living in the west and going to school here can get a real education on western culture that is not a good one.
Just look at what our college towns are like on a weekend. For a young muslim who grew up in a conservative home it must feel like they are in the middle of Sodom and Gomorrah. In Britain the young people are at least as bad or even worse. If you go into the pub district of a city everywhere you look you will see drunken men and women staggering around, having high drama, vomiting, girls passed out on the sidewalk with their feet up in the air and no panties on.
To young muslims many of our young are the drunken whores or whore mongers that their holy book warns them about. Yet somehow the liberal political elite have developed this fantasy that they are just going to go along with it and become like that themselves or at least not have a low opinion of their western peers. When in reality they have good reason to reject our culture and cling to their religion for dear life.
Or if they do give in to temptation there is the possibility that they will turn to their religion to get clean and have a severe revulsion to our culture based upon their experience. ie Abu Hamza is a prime example of this type of personality swing.
This is why multiculturalism where western countries are going to integrate large muslim communities and we are all going to get along is a pipe dream that will not work. Our cultures are just too different for us to live in such close proximity to each other that we have to give them a vote and therefore a say over how we live our lives.
[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
krazykoukides,
Is your wife a “submitter” by any chance?
I say let the pastor burn the Qur’an - I am Middle Eastern but not Muslim, by the way - because it IS a free speech issue just as building the Islamic community center IS a property rights issue.
However, the pastor should NOT be given ANY security/protection whatsoever. Why are we spending tax payer dollars for that shit? For something that is being unnecessarily created (tension by a tasteless act of burning a religious text) ?
People do have a right to free speech, but when you live in a society with many different beliefs and where people’s sensitivities deserve some respect, you should learn about exercising discretion: if you choose to threaten your neighbor with violence every fucking day, and he turns around and buys a shot gun and points it at you every chance he gets, guess what? YOU precipitated that. YOU caused that. People have a right to free speech but an audience has a right to REACT.
I say, let natural order dictate what happens. If the pastor wants to burn the Qur’an, piss off a bunch of Muslims, bring violence upon his congregation - and unfortunately, I bet upon our own troops abroad - let the court of public opinion point at the pastor and say, “You dumb fucking cunt. Look what hell you’ve raised.”
Why should he be protected?
[/quote]
We protect people because freedom of speech is a civil right. When people exercise their civil rights they should not only be free from retaliation from the government but they should also be able to expect the government to protect them from illegal reprisals by vigilantes and other law breakers.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
Perhaps your energy would be better spent confronting all those Muslims (including the imams with their death sentence fatwas) who somehow don’t seem to know this.
Perhaps they didn’t get that memo?
Then again, since they are some of Islam’s leaders, and you admit you’re not the most devout of Muslims, perhaps YOU are mistaken.[/quote]
No, I am not mistaken. People who do not realize such leaders are corrupt and wrong are the ones who are mistaken.
And if I could confront such Muslims: I would. But sadly very few speak English; and I don’t want to be killed for questioning them. Seeing how that is how things go in places like Iran - where these leaders come from. And just like many who like to bash Islam: Many Muslims are too stubbornly and willingly ignorant to accept anything new.
And when I say I am not a devout Muslim: that is because I have spent too much of my life not bound down by a religious text, I have a tattoo (shirk; I modified God’s creation), and I like a good beer (haram; Beer is not halal). I have a fair amount of knowledge on the subject, though, and I have read many a book about Islam. And on top of that I have spent quite a bit of time actually living in the middle east, in one of the better countries, Egypt.
[quote]Quote: 10 Myths About Islam
- Muslims are violent, terrorist extremists
Terrorism cannot be justified under any valid interpretation of the Islamic faith. The entire Qur’an, taken as a complete text, gives a message of hope, faith, and peace to a faith community of one billion people. The overwhelming message is that peace is to be found through faith in God, and justice among fellow human beings. Muslim leaders and scholars do speak out against terrorism in all its forms, and offer explanations of misinterpreted or twisted teachings.
[/quote]
And let’s remember: The middle east’s Muslim population only makes up about 20% of the total Muslim population. And they are the ones we hear about the most.
Copies of Koran burned in Ohio…
edit- I re-read that article…did he do it or not? doesn’t really say…either way, I agree with K.K.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Copies of Koran burned in Ohio…
Well , shit. Somebody did it.
Let’s keep our fingers crossed and hope nothing terrible happens because of it.
[quote]krazykoukides wrote:
[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
krazykoukides,
Is your wife a “submitter” by any chance?
I say let the pastor burn the Qur’an - I am Middle Eastern but not Muslim, by the way - because it IS a free speech issue just as building the Islamic community center IS a property rights issue.
However, the pastor should NOT be given ANY security/protection whatsoever. Why are we spending tax payer dollars for that shit? For something that is being unnecessarily created (tension by a tasteless act of burning a religious text) ?
People do have a right to free speech, but when you live in a society with many different beliefs and where people’s sensitivities deserve some respect, you should learn about exercising discretion: if you choose to threaten your neighbor with violence every fucking day, and he turns around and buys a shot gun and points it at you every chance he gets, guess what? YOU precipitated that. YOU caused that. People have a right to free speech but an audience has a right to REACT.
I say, let natural order dictate what happens. If the pastor wants to burn the Qur’an, piss off a bunch of Muslims, bring violence upon his congregation - and unfortunately, I bet upon our own troops abroad - let the court of public opinion point at the pastor and say, “You dumb fucking cunt. Look what hell you’ve raised.”
Why should he be protected?
[/quote]
What is your definition of ‘submitter’ ?
Because anybody who claims to be a ‘Muslim’ is a ‘submitter’ in the sense that Islam literally translates to “Submission to God”.
It is a free country - the pastor can do what he wants. If he does (he won’t now) burn the Quran - that is his own choice even if it is insensitive and it spreads hate.
That is not why I was angry about it. I was angry about it because of his SHEER IGNORANCE that he spreads and all the HATE that he spreads. PLUS I did not want it to go down because god knows somewhere some “Muslim” (note the quotes) would’ve hurt somebody.
Islam does not teach violence no matter how many times people want to take Surahs OUT OF CONTEXT in the Quran and say that shows Islam supports violence. I can take parts of the Bible out of context and say the Bible teaches violence too. It’s just bullshit. The Muslims committing mass murder are not TRUE Muslims… they are more of a CULT extremist group.
ANYBODY who takes a book WORD for WORD is an idiot, too. And especially the Quran because all English Qurans are translations of the original Arabic Quran. And if you know anything about Arabic, it is that many words do not translate well at all.
[/quote]
The “context” argument is old and wore out. There are plenty enough surahs that not only say to commit an act of violence but even go into details such as which person or group of people and how to commit that act of violence for a context to not be necessary for us to understand what is being instructed.
The koran says you are a muslim when you say you are. So the “they’re not true muslims” argument contradicts the koran. It is just a rationalization used to avoid facing up to the fact that islam is vicious.
The concept of submission is a big part of the problem. It is based upon a concept of god as a divine dictator. God is our dictator therefore we must submit ourselves to his dictates. Where do we find his dictate? In the koran. Since the koran is the word of god, our divine dictator who we submit ourselves to, to not take it literally is to go against god. Unless of course a particular passage from the koran is one the mohammad told us is taqqiyah for the kuffar.
Most muslims are not Arabs and do not speak Arabic. So what you are telling us is the majority of muslims cannot and do not understand the koran properly because they do not speak Arabic. Therefore the people who are best able to understand the koran properly and practice the most authentic version of islam are the Arabs. Amongst the Arabs the ones whose dialect would be the closest to the one used in the koran are the Saudis. So using your reasoning the Saudis have the most authentic version of islam because they have the fullest understanding of the koran.
Another way we can use your reasoning is we can say perhaps the reason why islam is more moderate in places like Turkey or Indonesia is because the locals don’t understand the koran properly because they are only getting a translation.
Last but not least. All that preacher would be doing by burning korans is reflecting ideas and beliefs that are within the koran itself. The koran teaches to reject others beliefs as inferior. What goes around comes around. If muslims gained wisdom from their religion they would admit that they themselves have been guilty of intolerance and bigotry therefore they have no right to be angry when someone does it back to them.