[quote]MaazerSmiit wrote:
A guy with one arm can still seriously hurt you if he has a knife and you’re backed into a corner in cramped conditions. No guarantee that you’ll manage to grab his wrist (or whatever you do in that situation) on the first try, and then you’re even closer to the guy and potentially off balance.
Wouldn’t be hard to back a guy into a corner in cramped conditions, even in a wheelchair. You can push, ride momentum, and swing your shiny metal object. Or just have an electric wheelchair, which seems likely for a person incapable of pushing on both sides.
The officer had previous experience with a man waving a shiny metal object around and causing someone serious harm.[/quote]
It just astounds me that so many other professions, without being equipped with tazers, or batons or pepper spray, or anything, deal with these situations without killing anyone. [/quote]
Most EMS and Fire services have policies to not deal with armed people until the police show up. Most of the time the police are first to respond anyway. They have more units on the road and their vehicles are faster. Of course, routine medical calls go sideways and yes, EMS personnel can be exposed to a dangerous person, but are not expected to apprehend or neutralize the threat. That is the difference.
[/quote]
The only time we wait on cops is in for things like shootings or injuries from fights. Most medicals get no police response. I can assure you, people have pens in those situations. And dogs. est.
The cop in question has the duty as a human being to not shoot a guy if he has the chance to avoid it.
Hell, in first responder training, they tell you to do things like throw equipment at them as a distraction and run away. I assume the cop had pepper spray, probably a tazer, maybe some kind of club, but couldn’t manage without blowing holes in the guy.
Yes, trying non-lethal means could increase the risk to the officer, but that’s part of the job. Firefighters train to risk their lives for property much more so a life. If they did everything to minimize risk, they’d never go in a building.
[quote]MaazerSmiit wrote:
A guy with one arm can still seriously hurt you if he has a knife and you’re backed into a corner in cramped conditions. No guarantee that you’ll manage to grab his wrist (or whatever you do in that situation) on the first try, and then you’re even closer to the guy and potentially off balance.
Wouldn’t be hard to back a guy into a corner in cramped conditions, even in a wheelchair. You can push, ride momentum, and swing your shiny metal object. Or just have an electric wheelchair, which seems likely for a person incapable of pushing on both sides.
The officer had previous experience with a man waving a shiny metal object around and causing someone serious harm.[/quote]
It just astounds me that so many other professions, without being equipped with tazers, or batons or pepper spray, or anything, deal with these situations without killing anyone. [/quote]
Most EMS and Fire services have policies to not deal with armed people until the police show up. Most of the time the police are first to respond anyway. They have more units on the road and their vehicles are faster. Of course, routine medical calls go sideways and yes, EMS personnel can be exposed to a dangerous person, but are not expected to apprehend or neutralize the threat. That is the difference.
[/quote]
The only time we wait on cops is in for things like shootings or injuries from fights. Most medicals get no police response. I can assure you, people have pens in those situations. And dogs. est.
The cop in question has the duty as a human being to not shoot a guy if he has the chance to avoid it.
Hell, in first responder training, they tell you to do things like throw equipment at them as a distraction and run away. I assume the cop had pepper spray, probably a tazer, maybe some kind of club, but couldn’t manage without blowing holes in the guy.
Yes, trying non-lethal means could increase the risk to the officer, but that’s part of the job. Firefighters train to risk their lives for property much more so a life. If they did everything to minimize risk, they’d never go in a building.[/quote]
Well, you obviously don’t understand the force continuum. You don’t use lesser force than what is presented to you. Stabbing weapon means you draw your pistol. OC spray isn’t sufficient when someone has already closed the gap with an edged weapon. I can cuff someone after I’ve been sprayed, so I’m pretty sure I can stab someone, too.
The cornered cop’s partner shot the guy, which leads me to believe that cornered cop was not in an advantageous position to defend himself.
You’re telling me that firefighters run into burning buildings to save property? Really?
Increasing the risk to officers is just “part of the job”? If I’m legally authorized to do as much as I can to protect myself, I’m doing it. I’m not relying on the chance that OC spray or a baton strike might stop a guy who could kill me. It’s unfortunate that this man was mentally ill and probably didn’t understand the consequences of his actions, but that doesn’t change the way you deal with a deadly force encounter. He had the means, intent, and though many will argue this he had the ability to kill or cause serious bodily harm to the officer.
Knowing what we know, this incident COULD have been justified so let’s not jump all over this cop for shooting a guy in a wheelchair.
Besides, we’ve all seen the Para-Olympics and know that wheelchair bound people and amputees can do amazing things.
[quote]MaazerSmiit wrote:
A guy with one arm can still seriously hurt you if he has a knife and you’re backed into a corner in cramped conditions. No guarantee that you’ll manage to grab his wrist (or whatever you do in that situation) on the first try, and then you’re even closer to the guy and potentially off balance.
Wouldn’t be hard to back a guy into a corner in cramped conditions, even in a wheelchair. You can push, ride momentum, and swing your shiny metal object. Or just have an electric wheelchair, which seems likely for a person incapable of pushing on both sides.
The officer had previous experience with a man waving a shiny metal object around and causing someone serious harm.[/quote]
It just astounds me that so many other professions, without being equipped with tazers, or batons or pepper spray, or anything, deal with these situations without killing anyone. [/quote]
Most EMS and Fire services have policies to not deal with armed people until the police show up. Most of the time the police are first to respond anyway. They have more units on the road and their vehicles are faster. Of course, routine medical calls go sideways and yes, EMS personnel can be exposed to a dangerous person, but are not expected to apprehend or neutralize the threat. That is the difference.
[/quote]
The only time we wait on cops is in for things like shootings or injuries from fights. Most medicals get no police response. I can assure you, people have pens in those situations. And dogs. est.
The cop in question has the duty as a human being to not shoot a guy if he has the chance to avoid it.
Hell, in first responder training, they tell you to do things like throw equipment at them as a distraction and run away. I assume the cop had pepper spray, probably a tazer, maybe some kind of club, but couldn’t manage without blowing holes in the guy.
Yes, trying non-lethal means could increase the risk to the officer, but that’s part of the job. Firefighters train to risk their lives for property much more so a life. If they did everything to minimize risk, they’d never go in a building.[/quote]
Well, you obviously don’t understand the force continuum. You don’t use lesser force than what is presented to you. Stabbing weapon means you draw your pistol. OC spray isn’t sufficient when someone has already closed the gap with an edged weapon. I can cuff someone after I’ve been sprayed, so I’m pretty sure I can stab someone, too.
The cornered cop’s partner shot the guy, which leads me to believe that cornered cop was not in an advantageous position to defend himself.
You’re telling me that firefighters run into burning buildings to save property? Really?
[/quote]
Yup. It’s most of what they do. It is very rare most places to even have a person in the building. Most buildings are entered with the sole intention of saving property. They put themselves in serious danger for people’s pictures, pets, heirlooms, buildings est.
If that’s how you approach your job, I’m sorry, but I think you are wrong. You should take some decent amount of personal risk to preserve life. This is the exact attitude I find troubling with cops.
[quote]
Knowing what we know, this incident COULD have been justified so let’s not jump all over this cop for shooting a guy in a wheelchair.
Besides, we’ve all seen the Para-Olympics and know that wheelchair bound people and amputees can do amazing things. [/quote]
I only mentioned before, that I find the story improbable, though not impossible.
The shooting officer wasn’t even the one who was backed into the corner:
“As the suspect backed one of the officers into a corner, he attempted to stab the officer with the object,” the statement said. “Officer Marin, fearing for his partner’s life, and his own safety, discharged his duty weapon one time, striking the suspect.”
I have a hard time believing they couldn’t have tasered the guy or done something else to subdue him.
[quote]MaazerSmiit wrote:
A guy with one arm can still seriously hurt you if he has a knife and you’re backed into a corner in cramped conditions. No guarantee that you’ll manage to grab his wrist (or whatever you do in that situation) on the first try, and then you’re even closer to the guy and potentially off balance.
Wouldn’t be hard to back a guy into a corner in cramped conditions, even in a wheelchair. You can push, ride momentum, and swing your shiny metal object. Or just have an electric wheelchair, which seems likely for a person incapable of pushing on both sides.
The officer had previous experience with a man waving a shiny metal object around and causing someone serious harm.[/quote]
It just astounds me that so many other professions, without being equipped with tazers, or batons or pepper spray, or anything, deal with these situations without killing anyone. [/quote]
Most EMS and Fire services have policies to not deal with armed people until the police show up. Most of the time the police are first to respond anyway. They have more units on the road and their vehicles are faster. Of course, routine medical calls go sideways and yes, EMS personnel can be exposed to a dangerous person, but are not expected to apprehend or neutralize the threat. That is the difference.
[/quote]
The only time we wait on cops is in for things like shootings or injuries from fights. Most medicals get no police response. I can assure you, people have pens in those situations. And dogs. est.
The cop in question has the duty as a human being to not shoot a guy if he has the chance to avoid it.
Hell, in first responder training, they tell you to do things like throw equipment at them as a distraction and run away. I assume the cop had pepper spray, probably a tazer, maybe some kind of club, but couldn’t manage without blowing holes in the guy.
Yes, trying non-lethal means could increase the risk to the officer, but that’s part of the job. Firefighters train to risk their lives for property much more so a life. If they did everything to minimize risk, they’d never go in a building.[/quote]
Well, you obviously don’t understand the force continuum. You don’t use lesser force than what is presented to you. Stabbing weapon means you draw your pistol. OC spray isn’t sufficient when someone has already closed the gap with an edged weapon. I can cuff someone after I’ve been sprayed, so I’m pretty sure I can stab someone, too.
The cornered cop’s partner shot the guy, which leads me to believe that cornered cop was not in an advantageous position to defend himself.
You’re telling me that firefighters run into burning buildings to save property? Really?
[/quote]
Yup. It’s most of what they do. It is very rare most places to even have a person in the building. Most buildings are entered with the sole intention of saving property. They put themselves in serious danger for people’s pictures, pets, heirlooms, buildings est.
If that’s how you approach your job, I’m sorry, but I think you are wrong. You should take some decent amount of personal risk to preserve life. This is the exact attitude I find troubling with cops.
[quote]
Knowing what we know, this incident COULD have been justified so let’s not jump all over this cop for shooting a guy in a wheelchair.
Besides, we’ve all seen the Para-Olympics and know that wheelchair bound people and amputees can do amazing things. [/quote]
I only mentioned before, that I find the story improbable, though not impossible.[/quote]
Obviously there are risks in our (Police, Fire, EMS) line of work. We’ve all come to accept it, and most of us don’t want sympathy for choosing our way of life.
I will and have knowingly put myself into dangerous situations, and I accept that. However, if my life is in jeopardy, my only concern at that point in time to to STOP THE THREAT. If I feel that I am going to die unless I stop threat, then there is no other option than deadly force. I’m not about to play the odds with my life.
For the record, I’ve been in situations where people have drawn weapons on me and I was able to neutralize them without injury to myself or them. At no point did I fear my life was in danger mostly due to the subject’s ability (or inability) to kill me and that is why non-lethal force was used. Had I feared for my life, I would have resorted to deadly force.
I’m shocked that you’re expected to risk your life for anything other than human life. Where I’m from, unless there is a person believed to be inside, the guys just hose down the building and flood the basement. I wouldn’t expect them to do anything more than that. I can’t imagine the guilt I would have if a person died trying to save my possessions.
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
The Officer was in a crowded, confined area with an erratic, mentally ill man trying to stab him with something shiny. Given the circumstances, I may have fired too. [/quote]
If your a cop turn in your badge. Porcelain piggies are dangerous to civilians.
[quote]MaazerSmiit wrote:
A guy with one arm can still seriously hurt you if he has a knife and you’re backed into a corner in cramped conditions. No guarantee that you’ll manage to grab his wrist (or whatever you do in that situation) on the first try, and then you’re even closer to the guy and potentially off balance.
Wouldn’t be hard to back a guy into a corner in cramped conditions, even in a wheelchair. You can push, ride momentum, and swing your shiny metal object. Or just have an electric wheelchair, which seems likely for a person incapable of pushing on both sides.
The officer had previous experience with a man waving a shiny metal object around and causing someone serious harm.[/quote]
It just astounds me that so many other professions, without being equipped with tazers, or batons or pepper spray, or anything, deal with these situations without killing anyone. [/quote]
This. We should not accept lethal force for dealing with any potentially harmful situation. There was a story yesterday in ga of police responding to a home alarm. The decided to enter through the back door which was unlocked, a lab ran towards them barking and they shot it. Thanks for coming to protect my property by murdering it.
[quote]MaazerSmiit wrote:
A guy with one arm can still seriously hurt you if he has a knife and you’re backed into a corner in cramped conditions. No guarantee that you’ll manage to grab his wrist (or whatever you do in that situation) on the first try, and then you’re even closer to the guy and potentially off balance.
Wouldn’t be hard to back a guy into a corner in cramped conditions, even in a wheelchair. You can push, ride momentum, and swing your shiny metal object. Or just have an electric wheelchair, which seems likely for a person incapable of pushing on both sides.
The officer had previous experience with a man waving a shiny metal object around and causing someone serious harm.[/quote]
It just astounds me that so many other professions, without being equipped with tazers, or batons or pepper spray, or anything, deal with these situations without killing anyone. [/quote]
Most EMS and Fire services have policies to not deal with armed people until the police show up. Most of the time the police are first to respond anyway. They have more units on the road and their vehicles are faster. Of course, routine medical calls go sideways and yes, EMS personnel can be exposed to a dangerous person, but are not expected to apprehend or neutralize the threat. That is the difference.
[/quote]
The only time we wait on cops is in for things like shootings or injuries from fights. Most medicals get no police response. I can assure you, people have pens in those situations. And dogs. est.
The cop in question has the duty as a human being to not shoot a guy if he has the chance to avoid it.
Hell, in first responder training, they tell you to do things like throw equipment at them as a distraction and run away. I assume the cop had pepper spray, probably a tazer, maybe some kind of club, but couldn’t manage without blowing holes in the guy.
Yes, trying non-lethal means could increase the risk to the officer, but that’s part of the job. Firefighters train to risk their lives for property much more so a life. If they did everything to minimize risk, they’d never go in a building.[/quote]
Well, you obviously don’t understand the force continuum. You don’t use lesser force than what is presented to you. Stabbing weapon means you draw your pistol. OC spray isn’t sufficient when someone has already closed the gap with an edged weapon. I can cuff someone after I’ve been sprayed, so I’m pretty sure I can stab someone, too.
The cornered cop’s partner shot the guy, which leads me to believe that cornered cop was not in an advantageous position to defend himself.
You’re telling me that firefighters run into burning buildings to save property? Really?
[/quote]
Yup. It’s most of what they do. It is very rare most places to even have a person in the building. Most buildings are entered with the sole intention of saving property. They put themselves in serious danger for people’s pictures, pets, heirlooms, buildings est.
If that’s how you approach your job, I’m sorry, but I think you are wrong. You should take some decent amount of personal risk to preserve life. This is the exact attitude I find troubling with cops.
It is a different protocol and a different risk assessment, but yeah, we go into building we know are empty.
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
The Officer was in a crowded, confined area with an erratic, mentally ill man trying to stab him with something shiny. Given the circumstances, I may have fired too. [/quote]
If your a cop turn in your badge. Porcelain piggies are dangerous to civilians. [/quote]
If we’re going for funnies…You’re not an English teacher, are you?
Quite frankly, I’m glad that you’re not a cop because you make emotional decisions and rationalizations. Put in the same position as those Officers and you’d have likely made poor choices.
There has been no mention of the amputee’s criminal history. Maybe he’s a violent offender? He was allegedly threatening people before the police even got there because he was angry he wasn’t being given a cigarette and soda. He reportedly has schizophrenia and suffers from bi-polar disorder as well. Nobody knows the lighting conditions of the room or who else was in it, if anyone.
If the man in the wheelchair had one Officer cornered, that would mean that his back was to the other Officer, most likely. Perhaps that Officer only saw a shiny object being thrust in a stabbing motion and had no idea until after what he had in his hand. Maybe as he was thrusting the pen, he was yelling “I will kill you”. You don’t know.
How can you have a definitive opinion, one way or the other, without knowing every relevant fact?
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
The Officer was in a crowded, confined area with an erratic, mentally ill man trying to stab him with something shiny. Given the circumstances, I may have fired too. [/quote]
If your a cop turn in your badge. Porcelain piggies are dangerous to civilians. [/quote]
If we’re going for funnies…You’re not an English teacher, are you?
Quite frankly, I’m glad that you’re not a cop because you make emotional decisions and rationalizations. Put in the same position as those Officers and you’d have likely made poor choices.
There has been no mention of the amputee’s criminal history. Maybe he’s a violent offender? He was allegedly threatening people before the police even got there because he was angry he wasn’t being given a cigarette and soda. He reportedly has schizophrenia and suffers from bi-polar disorder as well. Nobody knows the lighting conditions of the room or who else was in it, if anyone.
If the man in the wheelchair had one Officer cornered, that would mean that his back was to the other Officer, most likely. Perhaps that Officer only saw a shiny object being thrust in a stabbing motion and had no idea until after what he had in his hand. Maybe as he was thrusting the pen, he was yelling “I will kill you”. You don’t know.
How can you have a definitive opinion, one way or the other, without knowing every relevant fact?[/quote]
It is real clear cut in my eyes.
Cops enter dimly light room. If only they had a tool to provide sufficient lighting in this day and age? Like a small tactical flashlight that is 200 lum and perhaps even with a strob function that can cause severe disorientation, temp blindness and possible vomiting or siezures.
You got me on the you’re. But cops that can’t resolve dangerous situations involving individuals not armed with a firearm with out lethel force should not be cops IMHO.
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
The Officer was in a crowded, confined area with an erratic, mentally ill man trying to stab him with something shiny. Given the circumstances, I may have fired too. [/quote]
If your a cop turn in your badge. Porcelain piggies are dangerous to civilians. [/quote]
If we’re going for funnies…You’re not an English teacher, are you?
Quite frankly, I’m glad that you’re not a cop because you make emotional decisions and rationalizations. Put in the same position as those Officers and you’d have likely made poor choices.
There has been no mention of the amputee’s criminal history. Maybe he’s a violent offender? He was allegedly threatening people before the police even got there because he was angry he wasn’t being given a cigarette and soda. He reportedly has schizophrenia and suffers from bi-polar disorder as well. Nobody knows the lighting conditions of the room or who else was in it, if anyone.
If the man in the wheelchair had one Officer cornered, that would mean that his back was to the other Officer, most likely. Perhaps that Officer only saw a shiny object being thrust in a stabbing motion and had no idea until after what he had in his hand. Maybe as he was thrusting the pen, he was yelling “I will kill you”. You don’t know.
How can you have a definitive opinion, one way or the other, without knowing every relevant fact?[/quote]
It is real clear cut in my eyes.
Cops enter dimly light room. If only they had a tool to provide sufficient lighting in this day and age? Like a small tactical flashlight that is 200 lum and perhaps even with a strob function that can cause severe disorientation, temp blindness and possible vomiting or siezures.
You got me on the you’re. But cops that can’t resolve dangerous situations involving individuals not armed with a firearm with out lethel force should not be cops IMHO. [/quote]
If I activate the strobe function on my flashlight and the guy goes into convulsions, that’s an unlawful seizure.
Here is a good one. Sure she had a gun. But I would argue that a police officer does not have the right to disarm you on your own property unless you are committing or suspected of committing a felony. Should I reasonably assume the police thought she was the burglar?
Here is a good one. Sure she had a gun. But I would argue that a police officer does not have the right to disarm you on your own property unless you are committing or suspected of committing a felony. Should I reasonably assume the police thought she was the burglar?[/quote]
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
The Officer was in a crowded, confined area with an erratic, mentally ill man trying to stab him with something shiny. Given the circumstances, I may have fired too. [/quote]
If your a cop turn in your badge. Porcelain piggies are dangerous to civilians. [/quote]
If we’re going for funnies…You’re not an English teacher, are you?
Quite frankly, I’m glad that you’re not a cop because you make emotional decisions and rationalizations. Put in the same position as those Officers and you’d have likely made poor choices.
There has been no mention of the amputee’s criminal history. Maybe he’s a violent offender? He was allegedly threatening people before the police even got there because he was angry he wasn’t being given a cigarette and soda. He reportedly has schizophrenia and suffers from bi-polar disorder as well. Nobody knows the lighting conditions of the room or who else was in it, if anyone.
If the man in the wheelchair had one Officer cornered, that would mean that his back was to the other Officer, most likely. Perhaps that Officer only saw a shiny object being thrust in a stabbing motion and had no idea until after what he had in his hand. Maybe as he was thrusting the pen, he was yelling “I will kill you”. You don’t know.
How can you have a definitive opinion, one way or the other, without knowing every relevant fact?[/quote]
It is real clear cut in my eyes.
Cops enter dimly light room. If only they had a tool to provide sufficient lighting in this day and age? Like a small tactical flashlight that is 200 lum and perhaps even with a strob function that can cause severe disorientation, temp blindness and possible vomiting or siezures.
You got me on the you’re. But cops that can’t resolve dangerous situations involving individuals not armed with a firearm with out lethel force should not be cops IMHO. [/quote]
You’re right out to lunch if you think a gun in the only lethal weapon cops face. You have to remember that cops REACT to a threat and action is always faster than reaction. If a subject is 20feet away, runs at you suddenly and draws a knife, as a cop you have about 1.5 seconds to draw your pistol from a 3-point holster (funny watching people do this for the first time) bring the weapon up to aim, get a sight picture, and then deliver EFFECTIVE fire.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Also, please provide me with the brand and model of the flashlight that induces vomiting. I can’t wait to get my hands on the Surefire Barf-Lite 9000. Roadside stops just got a whole lot more interesting.
I don’t hate all cops and understand they put themselves in situations that most arn’t willing to so we must afford them more discretion. But this cops never make a bad call or one that should get them terminated or prosecuted is bs.