Don't Run From the Cops!

Off Topic
43

I’d like to weigh in on a few things here…

My fellow officers and I watched that video a couple of weeks ago. Our initial reaction was to cringe, because looking at only what can be seen on the video, if one of us had done that, we might be in quite a bit of trouble. However, as a sidebar to that, I submit the following:

  1. Every department has its own policies regarding pursuits, engaging moving vehicles with gunfire, etc. So, that officer may have been working well within the policies of that department. I don’t know.
  2. That video (or any video, for that matter) does not show everything that occurred at the scene. Collectively, police officers never judge other officers for their actions, because WE WERE NOT THERE, and we don’t have all of the information.
  3. I don’t know any department these days that doesn’t put officers on administrative leave after a shooting. It is quite common, it is not a reflection on the officer(s) and it is NOT a suspension.

All that being said, I also realize that I am not going to change anybody’s mind when it comes to police officers. Some people like us based on general principle, some people don’t. That’s fine, cos I don’t like everybody either. However, there is one peculiarity that I have noticed about police work that doesn’t seem to exist elsewhere.

When a paramedic arrives to help you or your family, you never question how he or she is doing their job. Same thing when a fireman shows up to put out a fire…you don’t tell him (or her) how to do it. EVERYONE, however, seems to think they are capable of doing a police officer’s job, because they think it’s easy.

Yet, these same people (the Stelman’s of the world) would never think to try to change anything by becoming one. Instead, they run their mouths on internet forums, crying about injustice brought upon the world by the evils of law enforcement. Let me tell you all the real facts of life…this job ain’t easy. You want to see real injustice being visited upon your brothers? Go ride a shift with a police officer in any major city. Go see what your fellow human beings do to each other.

Then, do the same thing I did. Take all the psycho-babble BS you learned in college (yeah, Stelman, I even graduated from college…not bad for an "idiot, huh?) and throw it all away. Cos there is NOTHING you will learn in college that applies when dealing with real people.

End of rant. To those of you who support us, thank you. Those of you who don’t, thank you, too. You keep me employed.

44

Oh, and Stelman, I wanted to comment on one other thing. The law serves the people, as do we. That being said, I like to focus my efforts on the victims of the crime…for example, the person whose car was stolen. They would probably like it back.

The law doesn’t serve the criminal who violates that very same law…nor do I.

There was a time when a person’s hand could be cut off for stealing. You are trying to connect the use of deadly force with the protection of property, claiming that it is unjust to do so. Unfortunately for you, we happen to think it’s alright to do so on this side of the pond.

But, I’ll tell you what. If you are ever the victim of a crime, just let them take whatever it is they came for. Don’t defend yourself, don’t call the police…just let them take it. I mean, after all, violence isn’t the answer, right? Hell, just let them take your wife, girlfriend, your kids…whatever. Maybe you could just give them a hug and counsel them.

45

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Chewie wrote:
I actually agree with Lixy for once. The cop said “I am going to take him out if I can.” He claimed that the driver tried to ram him when he clearly did not. You can see in the video, all he did was try to escape. Yes, that is illegal, but the cop was just thirsty for blood.

Why do you think he got suspended?

Were you watching the same video I watched? The car did attempt to ram the cop. When he said he was going to try to take him out - I am pretty sure that meant he was going to try and spin him, or use some other maneuver to disable the car. [/quote]

Possibly.

I watched it four or five times. It looked like he swerved instead of rammed.

How many times did the officer shoot him through the windshield? 3, 4, 5? Don’t you think anything after one is excessive?

My point is: The driver committed a crime. The crime was blown way out of proportion. Someone died.

I’m all for law enforcement. This video just showed an example of excessive force.

46

[quote]mapwhap wrote:
I’d like to weigh in on a few things here…

My fellow officers and I watched that video a couple of weeks ago. Our initial reaction was to cringe, because looking at only what can be seen on the video, if one of us had done that, we might be in quite a bit of trouble. However, as a sidebar to that, I submit the following:

  1. Every department has its own policies regarding pursuits, engaging moving vehicles with gunfire, etc. So, that officer may have been working well within the policies of that department. I don’t know.
  2. That video (or any video, for that matter) does not show everything that occurred at the scene. Collectively, police officers never judge other officers for their actions, because WE WERE NOT THERE, and we don’t have all of the information.
  3. I don’t know any department these days that doesn’t put officers on administrative leave after a shooting. It is quite common, it is not a reflection on the officer(s) and it is NOT a suspension.

All that being said, I also realize that I am not going to change anybody’s mind when it comes to police officers. Some people like us based on general principle, some people don’t. That’s fine, cos I don’t like everybody either. However, there is one peculiarity that I have noticed about police work that doesn’t seem to exist elsewhere.

When a paramedic arrives to help you or your family, you never question how he or she is doing their job. Same thing when a fireman shows up to put out a fire…you don’t tell him (or her) how to do it. EVERYONE, however, seems to think they are capable of doing a police officer’s job, because they think it’s easy.

Yet, these same people (the Stelman’s of the world) would never think to try to change anything by becoming one. Instead, they run their mouths on internet forums, crying about injustice brought upon the world by the evils of law enforcement. Let me tell you all the real facts of life…this job ain’t easy. You want to see real injustice being visited upon your brothers? Go ride a shift with a police officer in any major city. Go see what your fellow human beings do to each other.

Then, do the same thing I did. Take all the psycho-babble BS you learned in college (yeah, Stelman, I even graduated from college…not bad for an "idiot, huh?) and throw it all away. Cos there is NOTHING you will learn in college that applies when dealing with real people.

End of rant. To those of you who support us, thank you. Those of you who don’t, thank you, too. You keep me employed.

[/quote]

WRONG!!!

I know dealing with half these knuckleheads out here, that I would be very quick to shoot one of em. So I SHOULD not be a cop. Nobody’s saying its easy, what we’re saying is if you can’t do it then don’t.

You don’t want anybody telling you how to do your job so your obviously saying you did it right? Then why is the argument “you don’t know how it is dealing with real people”, instead of just saying we “did the right thing”?

Ok he’s a criminal let’s say he deserved it… Great!!!.
What about the times you barge into the wrong apartment. No problem everybody makes mistakes, except when this guy throws his hands up fast in the air since he doesn’t have a clue whats going on you fire on him because everything is happening so fast. I guess long as you arrest 20 criminals who cares if only 1 innocent person dies.

The worst part of this whole this cop is a hero thing. It’s real fucking convienient that the we had 2 cameras working when the criminal was in the wrong. All of a sudden policy is to turn it off when mounting the hood of a car and turn it back on once your firing.

47

[quote]Chewie wrote:
Possibly.

I watched it four or five times. It looked like he swerved instead of rammed.

How many times did the officer shoot him through the windshield? 3, 4, 5? Don’t you think anything after one is excessive?

My point is: The driver committed a crime. The crime was blown way out of proportion. Someone died.

I’m all for law enforcement. This video just showed an example of excessive force. [/quote]

All we have to go on is the portions of the video we could watch.

I saw an attempt to ram and flee. You saw at attempt to avoid and flee.

As for the shooting - I don’t know, nor can anyone just from the video, what caused the shooting. Was the driver armed? Was the officer’s life in danger?

How do you know from a video how many shots are sufficient?

48

Airtruth,

My point, although you obviously missed it, was that everyone’s a critic. All you did was prove my point.

I didn’t say we do everything right. I didn’t even say the officer in question was right.

I would even venture to say that you, Airtruth, make mistakes doing your job, whatever it may be. The big difference is, society isn’t there to criticize every move you make.

Perfection, regardless of your career, is impossible to achieve. You can strive for it, but to expect it? I don’t think so. And by the way…we’re right a lot more often then you might like to give us credit for.

49

[quote]rainjack wrote:
All we have to go on is the portions of the video we could watch.

I saw an attempt to ram and flee. You saw at attempt to avoid and flee.

As for the shooting - I don’t know, nor can anyone just from the video, what caused the shooting. Was the driver armed? Was the officer’s life in danger?

How do you know from a video how many shots are sufficient?

[/quote]
You are absolutely correct about what we saw in the video.

We can’t tell from the video. What I saw was the officer fire more than one shot at point blank range. That, to me, is excessive. One shot at that range would probably stop anyone, except Rasputin. Unloading your clip on someone is unnecessary.

50

[quote]Chewie wrote:
rainjack wrote:
All we have to go on is the portions of the video we could watch.

I saw an attempt to ram and flee. You saw at attempt to avoid and flee.

As for the shooting - I don’t know, nor can anyone just from the video, what caused the shooting. Was the driver armed? Was the officer’s life in danger?

How do you know from a video how many shots are sufficient?

You are absolutely correct about what we saw in the video.

We can’t tell from the video. What I saw was the officer fire more than one shot at point blank range. That, to me, is excessive. One shot at that range would probably stop anyone, except Rasputin. Unloading your clip on someone is unnecessary.
[/quote]

Have you ever shot a pistol? I can outshoot 90% of the cops in this town, but shooting a pistol is HARD! It is difficult even from point blank range. I can only imagine how hard it is to shoot from the hood of a moving car. Besides, ballistics is a funny issue, particularly when you’re shooting low power handgun ammo through glass. If I’m in that cop’s position, I’m shooting until the guy stops, be it 1 bullet or a whole mag. Now will you assholes PLEASE stop making me defend cops?!

mike

51

[quote]Stelman wrote:
I’m a psychologist. And I’m not american, I’m european. Many guys here seem to have a fascination with guns. Before you say that a cop deserves to shot someone who tags or steals a car, first think why law is there in the first place. Who the law really serves. Alright, the kid stole a car.[/quote]

So, would you as a mental health professional, say that the perpetraitor was acting rationaly, with regard to the people around him?

I wouldn’t.

I would say that the guy was acting with a blatant disregard for the lives of others, and refused to be stopped no matter who he hurt or what the consequences may have been.

Based on that I would conclude that the guy agreed to be shot.

Live by the sword, Die by the sword.

52

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
Chewie wrote:
rainjack wrote:
All we have to go on is the portions of the video we could watch.

I saw an attempt to ram and flee. You saw at attempt to avoid and flee.

As for the shooting - I don’t know, nor can anyone just from the video, what caused the shooting. Was the driver armed? Was the officer’s life in danger?

How do you know from a video how many shots are sufficient?

You are absolutely correct about what we saw in the video.

We can’t tell from the video. What I saw was the officer fire more than one shot at point blank range. That, to me, is excessive. One shot at that range would probably stop anyone, except Rasputin. Unloading your clip on someone is unnecessary.

Have you ever shot a pistol? I can outshoot 90% of the cops in this town, but shooting a pistol is HARD! It is difficult even from point blank range. I can only imagine how hard it is to shoot from the hood of a moving car. Besides, ballistics is a funny issue, particularly when you’re shooting low power handgun ammo through glass. If I’m in that cop’s position, I’m shooting until the guy stops, be it 1 bullet or a whole mag. Now will you assholes PLEASE stop making me defend cops?!

mike[/quote]

Jeez, would you join the force already? We know you want to.

53

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
Chewie wrote:
rainjack wrote:
All we have to go on is the portions of the video we could watch.

I saw an attempt to ram and flee. You saw at attempt to avoid and flee.

As for the shooting - I don’t know, nor can anyone just from the video, what caused the shooting. Was the driver armed? Was the officer’s life in danger?

How do you know from a video how many shots are sufficient?

You are absolutely correct about what we saw in the video.

We can’t tell from the video. What I saw was the officer fire more than one shot at point blank range. That, to me, is excessive. One shot at that range would probably stop anyone, except Rasputin. Unloading your clip on someone is unnecessary.

Have you ever shot a pistol? I can outshoot 90% of the cops in this town, but shooting a pistol is HARD! It is difficult even from point blank range. I can only imagine how hard it is to shoot from the hood of a moving car. Besides, ballistics is a funny issue, particularly when you’re shooting low power handgun ammo through glass. If I’m in that cop’s position, I’m shooting until the guy stops, be it 1 bullet or a whole mag. Now will you assholes PLEASE stop making me defend cops?!

mike[/quote]
I have shot pistols many times.

Asshole? Why resort to name calling?

I’m not defending the perp, just saying that it appeared to be excessive.

54

Zap–Argh, you bastard! You got me.

Chewie–Be cool man, I’m not being serious.

mike

55

[quote]Chewie wrote:
rainjack wrote:
All we have to go on is the portions of the video we could watch.

I saw an attempt to ram and flee. You saw at attempt to avoid and flee.

As for the shooting - I don’t know, nor can anyone just from the video, what caused the shooting. Was the driver armed? Was the officer’s life in danger?

How do you know from a video how many shots are sufficient?

You are absolutely correct about what we saw in the video.

We can’t tell from the video. What I saw was the officer fire more than one shot at point blank range. That, to me, is excessive. One shot at that range would probably stop anyone, except Rasputin. Unloading your clip on someone is unnecessary.
[/quote]

It’s easy to say that right now, at a computer, relaxing in the office. But when you’re the guy on the hood of the car making a split second decision to use lethal force, I think we can understand how the adrenaline of the situation might make you pull the trigger a few more times to make sure.

And once the decision is made to pull use lethal force, I don’t see what differnce one bullet or four makes. It’s all performed with the same intent. Probably every major police force in the country has a story of a guy on PCP who eats 13 bullets to the torso and keeps on going.

56

[quote]Stelman wrote:
I’m a psychologist. And I’m not american, I’m european. Many guys here seem to have a fascination with guns. Before you say that a cop deserves to shot someone who tags or steals a car, first think why law is there in the first place. Who the law really serves. Alright, the kid stole a car.[/quote]

Hey, I am from Europe too, and if someone tries to steal my car I am allowed to shoot him.

Look into your self defense laws and you will probably find the same.

57

Something I thought was parrelle to the conversation.

Should leathal force been used to stop the car? I would defer to the woaman’s family.

I don’t know if I would have jumped on the hood of the car though. Adrenalin, is a bitch sometime.

58

[quote]mapwhap wrote:
Airtruth,

My point, although you obviously missed it, was that everyone’s a critic. All you did was prove my point.

I didn’t say we do everything right. I didn’t even say the officer in question was right.

I would even venture to say that you, Airtruth, make mistakes doing your job, whatever it may be. The big difference is, society isn’t there to criticize every move you make.

Perfection, regardless of your career, is impossible to achieve. You can strive for it, but to expect it? I don’t think so. And by the way…we’re right a lot more often then you might like to give us credit for. [/quote]

well if your point is everyone is a critic then you are right. What was written was everyone is a critic but doensn’t want to do anything about it. Which is true Iknow I can’t handle being a cop.

And yes I make a ton of mistakes on my job. The ones that have little consequences are plenty, the ones that have major are far and few, and if I mess up huge million dollar account I get fired…

Not cops you can go out and kill someone. The more people say you were wrong the more cops think we need to defend each other. I sure wishmy co-workers defended me when I fuck up.

Far as mistakes go me and you have a whole different view of mistakes if you think long as you do good most of the time its okay to make a mistake and kill a few occasional people here and there.

59

[quote]Chewie wrote:
rainjack wrote:
All we have to go on is the portions of the video we could watch.

I saw an attempt to ram and flee. You saw at attempt to avoid and flee.

As for the shooting - I don’t know, nor can anyone just from the video, what caused the shooting. Was the driver armed? Was the officer’s life in danger?

How do you know from a video how many shots are sufficient?

You are absolutely correct about what we saw in the video.

We can’t tell from the video. What I saw was the officer fire more than one shot at point blank range. That, to me, is excessive. One shot at that range would probably stop anyone, except Rasputin. Unloading your clip on someone is unnecessary.
[/quote]

In a lethal force situation, once you decide it is necessary, proper training would dictate shooting until the threat is nuetralized. Sometimes one will work, sometimes more are required.

No compotent professional who carries a weapon would count on 1 shot from a pistol to do the job in a lethal force situation. Especially after firing through glass which would degrade the ballistics of the bullet and make damage assesment difficult. If in fact the driver was only wounded and took off with the officer on the hood, he likely would have been killed. Shooting until the target is nuetralized would insure that doesn’t happen.

60

[quote]Donut62 wrote:
It’s easy to say that right now, at a computer, relaxing in the office. But when you’re the guy on the hood of the car making a split second decision to use lethal force, I think we can understand how the adrenaline of the situation might make you pull the trigger a few more times to make sure.

And once the decision is made to pull use lethal force, I don’t see what differnce one bullet or four makes. It’s all performed with the same intent. Probably every major police force in the country has a story of a guy on PCP who eats 13 bullets to the torso and keeps on going.[/quote]

Here’s what the video showed me.

  1. The driver swerved and ran from the cops. The officer said he would take him out.
  2. He kept running.
  3. The police officers were ramming into his car.
  4. The officer fired three rounds in the air at the car, apparently fleeing.
  5. The officer jumped on the hood and unloaded his clip into the windshield.

It seemed to escalate too quickly and for little reason.

I agree with the meth scenario and that there is no such thing as a routine stop. I saw an officer acting like he was blood-hungry in that video.

Why did he jump on the hood of the car in the first place?

The only crime I saw that he committed was running. Who knows, there may have been a lot more than shown on the video.

61

[quote]hedo wrote:
Chewie wrote:
rainjack wrote:
All we have to go on is the portions of the video we could watch.

I saw an attempt to ram and flee. You saw at attempt to avoid and flee.

As for the shooting - I don’t know, nor can anyone just from the video, what caused the shooting. Was the driver armed? Was the officer’s life in danger?

How do you know from a video how many shots are sufficient?

You are absolutely correct about what we saw in the video.

We can’t tell from the video. What I saw was the officer fire more than one shot at point blank range. That, to me, is excessive. One shot at that range would probably stop anyone, except Rasputin. Unloading your clip on someone is unnecessary.

In a lethal force situation, once you decide it is necessary, proper training would dictate shooting until the threat is nuetralized. Sometimes one will work, sometimes more are required.

No compotent professional who carries a weapon would count on 1 shot from a pistol to do the job in a lethal force situation. Especially after firing through glass which would degrade the ballistics of the bullet and make damage assesment difficult. If in fact the driver was only wounded and took off with the officer on the hood, he likely would have been killed. Shooting until the target is nuetralized would insure that doesn’t happen.

[/quote]
I thought the firing of shots in the first place was excessive.

I never saw the car try to ram him.

62

[quote]lixy wrote:
For Heaven’s sake, I passed no judgment on the OP’s story! Heck, I did not even comment on Hagar putting private property above human life.[/quote]

Sorry man if some one’s stealing my car I should be able to defend my property but I was thinking about these guys driving around dangerously running from the cops and putting other peoples lives at risk. Someone with such a selfishness is worthless. That being said my car is worth more than the assholes life who is trying to steal it. So in a way yes I am putting private property above a subhumans life.