'Don't Judge Children Wearing Pirate Costumes'

Off Topic
61

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Also Cortes, while we don’t always get what we want, we DO get some things. One of those things is the ability to live within the gender role we were born into, no matter how much it flies in the face of that kid’s parents’ values.[/quote]

You missed the point I was trying to make. It wasn’t that wearing a suit served as a form of repression. It was that a parent’s job is to teach his kid that “Yeah, I know you don’t want to do this. Do it anyway.”

If my kid is going to potentially turn into a serial killer because he didn’t get to wear his tutu and toe shoes to school, that’s a chance I’m willing to take.

You’re a writer. I’m sure you know what working within certain constrictive forms during your apprenticeship, such as the sestina or the super-short story, serves a number of extremely valuable purposes. It teaches, concentration, discipline, attention to detail, respect for the craft, forces the writer out of his comfort zone and serves as exercise, strengthening us in our art. It also cultivates a respect for and appreciation of authors whom we may otherwise have ignored.

I’m sure you also know of some, usually college-aged “writers” who’ve never exercised a second of discipline in their lives. Who champion “free verse” and whose prose is not much better than some of the gurgling cat piss found in these forums.

I’m saying that little kids need the former before they can make the decision, as informed, experienced adults, whether or not to spend every day dressed as Ariel. Childhood is not the time for throwing plastic young minds into the roiling pit of vipers that is…well, just about any American school environment I can think of. [/quote]
Who I am and what I write are not comparable and do not belong in the same discussion.

I understand that instilling some discipline and that sort of thing is important. This is simply not one of those moments. Telling a transgendered kid he can’t dress like a girl at school is no different than telling a gay kid that he can’t be attracted to boys, or vice versa.

I get your point. Essentially, what you are saying is that it is wrong to write in a certain style when another is called for. This would be appropriately analogous except for one thing: it is NOT WRONG to be transgendered and to express as much.

Let me repeat that because most of your argument seems to spring from this underlying assumption: THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BE TRANSGENDERED AND EXPRESSING IT.

However, there IS something wrong with making fun of a child for being who he is. If a kid goes to school with a yarmulke on and gets made fun of, do you abandon religious tradition and legitimize the bullies then? No. If a kid is blind as a bat and has to wear thick glasses and can’t get contacts, when the kids make fun of him for his glasses do you send him to school without them? No. If a black kid goes to school and gets made fun of for being black, do his parents send him to school with white makeup on? No.[/quote]

Good grief, I NEVER STATED THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH BEING TRANSGENDERED AND EXPRESSING IT. I do have my doubts as to the reality of the condition in most cases, but that’s not important to my point.

But if the kid has a wiener and will be using the boys bathroom, then he will have to learn to BE himself while DRESSING like a normal kid. If he later, when he is old enough to decide for himself, wants to start dressing like a woman and doing whatever else it is he needs to to feel comfortable, then that will be his decision. But to allow your 9 year old kid to dress like a ballerina at school isn’t even on the same game board as a yarmulke or thick glasses. It approaches criminal negligence.

You’re telling me, with a straight face, that if that kid in the video was your son, you would ALLOW him to go everywhere dressed like that? Is that what you’re saying? [/quote]
You don’t have to say its wrong to make clear that that is how you feel Cortes. You said it yourself. He should dress like a NORMAL boy. The obvious implication is that if he wants to dress like a girl he is not normal. Abnormal implies that something is wrong.

What approaches criminality is the behavior of children who perpetuate the idea that being gay or transgendered is wrong by making fun of them to the point where we force a kid to bury what it is about him that is natural so that these kids can go on making fun of people. Do you not understand that the real issue is not about wearing clothes but about ridiculing and persecuting someone for who he or she is?

62

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Good grief, I NEVER STATED THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH BEING TRANSGENDERED AND EXPRESSING IT. I do have my doubts as to the reality of the condition in most cases, but that’s not important to my point.

[/quote]

You referred to it as a sexual deviance.

63

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
@Cortes:

I don’t think your comparisons are valid at all. Do we suppress certain urges on a regular basis? Sure we do. But suppressing who you ARE is entirely different from not caving into every temptation possible. We exercise restraint, but not to the point where we can’t be who we are.

There is NO comparison whatsoever with having to wear a suit to work in a profession that mandates as much and living out the gender role you were born into. The fact is that if you were a transgendered man you would NOT have to conform and wear a suit to work. Your right to be free of employment discrimination based on sexuality is protected in this nature, and for a reason.

You don’t tell your kid “oh, you don’t GET to be transgendered.” No, the kid either is or he isn’t. If he isn’t, then wearing a dress is just some silly phase he’s going through and as much as most people on this site would be horrified at the thought of having a gay or transgendered child and will do whatever they can to suppress this, wearing a dress isn’t a definitive sign that this is the case. And if he IS transgendered then it’s entirely inappropriate to expect him to suppress this.

No one expects you to suppress the gender role that you were born into. No, you can’t act on every urge and you can’t just start saying and doing things that many find offensive simply because you think it’s masculine. There is a certain amount of respect that we must show others while we play out these gender roles, and THAT is where the suppression occurs.

And of course being gay or transgendered is a natural occurrence. Do you think people just CHOOSE to be gay or transgendered? There are many examples of transgendered children, the friend I mentioned being one, who were so confused at such an early age because they didn’t have any concept of sexuality and gender at that point. If they aren’t even equipped to make a choice about something they have NO concept about, how they can be choosing that path? If people CHOOSE to be gay or transgendered and this is not a natural occurrence, wouldn’t it then follow that being straight and traditionally gendered is also chosen? So at what age did you make the conscious decision to wear men’s clothing and start being attracted to women?

You didn’t. It just happened. You felt normal and in the proper role wearing men’s clothing and you just ARE attracted to women. I don’t remember CHOOSING to pop a huge boner when sweet little Jacquelyn Compton came back from summer vacation with the biggest tits in the class when I was a kid. It just happened because that’s how I was born.
[/quote]
Statistically you are speaking about a very, very, very small % of people in the world who are true Transgendered. It also takes a long time to determine that, it makes no sense to raise a child with the almost insignificant possibility that they are transgendered.

How many of those are also not true and are again just fucking looking for attention? [/quote]
Who cares if they’re looking for attention? There isn’t anything wrong with it in and of itself.

And yes, statistically speaking there are not many transgendered children. But I would be willing to bet that a huge majority of children who crossdress to the point where they’ll undergo ridicule at school ARE transgendered.

And here’s some significant statistics:
53% of LGBT students report being verbally abused by faculty and staff for their homosexuality or gender
90% of LGBTstudents report being verbally abused by their classmates
4 out of 5 LGBT students report not knowing One. SIngle. Supportive. Adult
80% of LGBT students have significant problems with cognitive, emotional and social isolation
50% of LGBT students report that neither parent supports their sexuality or gender
Depression strikes the LGBT student community at a rate 4 to 5 times that of the general student population
65% of LGBT students feel physically unsafe at school
41% of LGBT students have been physically assaulted by classmates, their parents or other people
33% of transgendered children have attempted suicide, more than 3 times the rate of the general student population

I’m sorry, but you’d have to be a complete monster to look at these statistics and decide that the solution is teaching your kid how to better hide his or her gender/sexuality.

We shouldn’t be teaching our kids to hide shit like that. We should be teaching them that there isn’t anything wrong with being transgendered, because THAT is the attitude that leads to all this persecutory behavior in the first place.[/quote]

Valid points, however what we should strive for is our sexuality NOT be our identity. As an employer I could give two shits, what someone believes in, fucks, sucks, licks or looks like. HOWEVER I do have a dress code and they have to follow that cause everyone else does. You cant have it both ways and as a father my job is to teach that to my children and also support them in understanding that the decisions they make have repercussions, good or bad.

64

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
@Cortes:

I don’t think your comparisons are valid at all. Do we suppress certain urges on a regular basis? Sure we do. But suppressing who you ARE is entirely different from not caving into every temptation possible. We exercise restraint, but not to the point where we can’t be who we are.

There is NO comparison whatsoever with having to wear a suit to work in a profession that mandates as much and living out the gender role you were born into. The fact is that if you were a transgendered man you would NOT have to conform and wear a suit to work. Your right to be free of employment discrimination based on sexuality is protected in this nature, and for a reason.

You don’t tell your kid “oh, you don’t GET to be transgendered.” No, the kid either is or he isn’t. If he isn’t, then wearing a dress is just some silly phase he’s going through and as much as most people on this site would be horrified at the thought of having a gay or transgendered child and will do whatever they can to suppress this, wearing a dress isn’t a definitive sign that this is the case. And if he IS transgendered then it’s entirely inappropriate to expect him to suppress this.

No one expects you to suppress the gender role that you were born into. No, you can’t act on every urge and you can’t just start saying and doing things that many find offensive simply because you think it’s masculine. There is a certain amount of respect that we must show others while we play out these gender roles, and THAT is where the suppression occurs.

And of course being gay or transgendered is a natural occurrence. Do you think people just CHOOSE to be gay or transgendered? There are many examples of transgendered children, the friend I mentioned being one, who were so confused at such an early age because they didn’t have any concept of sexuality and gender at that point. If they aren’t even equipped to make a choice about something they have NO concept about, how they can be choosing that path? If people CHOOSE to be gay or transgendered and this is not a natural occurrence, wouldn’t it then follow that being straight and traditionally gendered is also chosen? So at what age did you make the conscious decision to wear men’s clothing and start being attracted to women?

You didn’t. It just happened. You felt normal and in the proper role wearing men’s clothing and you just ARE attracted to women. I don’t remember CHOOSING to pop a huge boner when sweet little Jacquelyn Compton came back from summer vacation with the biggest tits in the class when I was a kid. It just happened because that’s how I was born.
[/quote]
Statistically you are speaking about a very, very, very small % of people in the world who are true Transgendered. It also takes a long time to determine that, it makes no sense to raise a child with the almost insignificant possibility that they are transgendered.

How many of those are also not true and are again just fucking looking for attention? [/quote]
Who cares if they’re looking for attention? There isn’t anything wrong with it in and of itself.

And yes, statistically speaking there are not many transgendered children. But I would be willing to bet that a huge majority of children who crossdress to the point where they’ll undergo ridicule at school ARE transgendered.

And here’s some significant statistics:
53% of LGBT students report being verbally abused by faculty and staff for their homosexuality or gender
90% of LGBTstudents report being verbally abused by their classmates
4 out of 5 LGBT students report not knowing One. SIngle. Supportive. Adult
80% of LGBT students have significant problems with cognitive, emotional and social isolation
50% of LGBT students report that neither parent supports their sexuality or gender
Depression strikes the LGBT student community at a rate 4 to 5 times that of the general student population
65% of LGBT students feel physically unsafe at school
41% of LGBT students have been physically assaulted by classmates, their parents or other people
33% of transgendered children have attempted suicide, more than 3 times the rate of the general student population

I’m sorry, but you’d have to be a complete monster to look at these statistics and decide that the solution is teaching your kid how to better hide his or her gender/sexuality.

We shouldn’t be teaching our kids to hide shit like that. We should be teaching them that there isn’t anything wrong with being transgendered, because THAT is the attitude that leads to all this persecutory behavior in the first place.[/quote]

Valid points, however what we should strive for is our sexuality NOT be our identity. As an employer I could give two shits, what someone believes in, fucks, sucks, licks or looks like. HOWEVER I do have a dress code and they have to follow that cause everyone else does. You cant have it both ways and as a father my job is to teach that to my children and also support them in understanding that the decisions they make have repercussions, good or bad. [/quote]

What if they dress. As a normal woman would? They don’t all act like Tina Turner drag queens. They aren’t gonna show up with big green wings and a long pink wig with violin shaped glasses.

Is the conservative look wrong? Well done make up and hair with proper work attire upset you?

65

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
@Cortes:

I don’t think your comparisons are valid at all. Do we suppress certain urges on a regular basis? Sure we do. But suppressing who you ARE is entirely different from not caving into every temptation possible. We exercise restraint, but not to the point where we can’t be who we are.

There is NO comparison whatsoever with having to wear a suit to work in a profession that mandates as much and living out the gender role you were born into. The fact is that if you were a transgendered man you would NOT have to conform and wear a suit to work. Your right to be free of employment discrimination based on sexuality is protected in this nature, and for a reason.

You don’t tell your kid “oh, you don’t GET to be transgendered.” No, the kid either is or he isn’t. If he isn’t, then wearing a dress is just some silly phase he’s going through and as much as most people on this site would be horrified at the thought of having a gay or transgendered child and will do whatever they can to suppress this, wearing a dress isn’t a definitive sign that this is the case. And if he IS transgendered then it’s entirely inappropriate to expect him to suppress this.

No one expects you to suppress the gender role that you were born into. No, you can’t act on every urge and you can’t just start saying and doing things that many find offensive simply because you think it’s masculine. There is a certain amount of respect that we must show others while we play out these gender roles, and THAT is where the suppression occurs.

And of course being gay or transgendered is a natural occurrence. Do you think people just CHOOSE to be gay or transgendered? There are many examples of transgendered children, the friend I mentioned being one, who were so confused at such an early age because they didn’t have any concept of sexuality and gender at that point. If they aren’t even equipped to make a choice about something they have NO concept about, how they can be choosing that path? If people CHOOSE to be gay or transgendered and this is not a natural occurrence, wouldn’t it then follow that being straight and traditionally gendered is also chosen? So at what age did you make the conscious decision to wear men’s clothing and start being attracted to women?

You didn’t. It just happened. You felt normal and in the proper role wearing men’s clothing and you just ARE attracted to women. I don’t remember CHOOSING to pop a huge boner when sweet little Jacquelyn Compton came back from summer vacation with the biggest tits in the class when I was a kid. It just happened because that’s how I was born.
[/quote]
Statistically you are speaking about a very, very, very small % of people in the world who are true Transgendered. It also takes a long time to determine that, it makes no sense to raise a child with the almost insignificant possibility that they are transgendered.

How many of those are also not true and are again just fucking looking for attention? [/quote]
Who cares if they’re looking for attention? There isn’t anything wrong with it in and of itself.

And yes, statistically speaking there are not many transgendered children. But I would be willing to bet that a huge majority of children who crossdress to the point where they’ll undergo ridicule at school ARE transgendered.

And here’s some significant statistics:
53% of LGBT students report being verbally abused by faculty and staff for their homosexuality or gender
90% of LGBTstudents report being verbally abused by their classmates
4 out of 5 LGBT students report not knowing One. SIngle. Supportive. Adult
80% of LGBT students have significant problems with cognitive, emotional and social isolation
50% of LGBT students report that neither parent supports their sexuality or gender
Depression strikes the LGBT student community at a rate 4 to 5 times that of the general student population
65% of LGBT students feel physically unsafe at school
41% of LGBT students have been physically assaulted by classmates, their parents or other people
33% of transgendered children have attempted suicide, more than 3 times the rate of the general student population

I’m sorry, but you’d have to be a complete monster to look at these statistics and decide that the solution is teaching your kid how to better hide his or her gender/sexuality.

We shouldn’t be teaching our kids to hide shit like that. We should be teaching them that there isn’t anything wrong with being transgendered, because THAT is the attitude that leads to all this persecutory behavior in the first place.[/quote]

Valid points, however what we should strive for is our sexuality NOT be our identity. As an employer I could give two shits, what someone believes in, fucks, sucks, licks or looks like. HOWEVER I do have a dress code and they have to follow that cause everyone else does. You cant have it both ways and as a father my job is to teach that to my children and also support them in understanding that the decisions they make have repercussions, good or bad. [/quote]

Yes. Again. Excellent.

The point efficiently and elegantly described.

66

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Also Cortes, while we don’t always get what we want, we DO get some things. One of those things is the ability to live within the gender role we were born into, no matter how much it flies in the face of that kid’s parents’ values.[/quote]

You missed the point I was trying to make. It wasn’t that wearing a suit served as a form of repression. It was that a parent’s job is to teach his kid that “Yeah, I know you don’t want to do this. Do it anyway.”

If my kid is going to potentially turn into a serial killer because he didn’t get to wear his tutu and toe shoes to school, that’s a chance I’m willing to take.

[/quote]
This is a disappointing statement. You mean you would rather risk your kid becoming a serial killer than let him explore his gender a little bit at risk of being made fun of? You would risk your child growing into a distorted, maladjusted human being rather than risk him actually finding comfort in wearing a dress and assuming a female gender?

67

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
@Cortes:

I don’t think your comparisons are valid at all. Do we suppress certain urges on a regular basis? Sure we do. But suppressing who you ARE is entirely different from not caving into every temptation possible. We exercise restraint, but not to the point where we can’t be who we are.

There is NO comparison whatsoever with having to wear a suit to work in a profession that mandates as much and living out the gender role you were born into. The fact is that if you were a transgendered man you would NOT have to conform and wear a suit to work. Your right to be free of employment discrimination based on sexuality is protected in this nature, and for a reason.

You don’t tell your kid “oh, you don’t GET to be transgendered.” No, the kid either is or he isn’t. If he isn’t, then wearing a dress is just some silly phase he’s going through and as much as most people on this site would be horrified at the thought of having a gay or transgendered child and will do whatever they can to suppress this, wearing a dress isn’t a definitive sign that this is the case. And if he IS transgendered then it’s entirely inappropriate to expect him to suppress this.

No one expects you to suppress the gender role that you were born into. No, you can’t act on every urge and you can’t just start saying and doing things that many find offensive simply because you think it’s masculine. There is a certain amount of respect that we must show others while we play out these gender roles, and THAT is where the suppression occurs.

And of course being gay or transgendered is a natural occurrence. Do you think people just CHOOSE to be gay or transgendered? There are many examples of transgendered children, the friend I mentioned being one, who were so confused at such an early age because they didn’t have any concept of sexuality and gender at that point. If they aren’t even equipped to make a choice about something they have NO concept about, how they can be choosing that path? If people CHOOSE to be gay or transgendered and this is not a natural occurrence, wouldn’t it then follow that being straight and traditionally gendered is also chosen? So at what age did you make the conscious decision to wear men’s clothing and start being attracted to women?

You didn’t. It just happened. You felt normal and in the proper role wearing men’s clothing and you just ARE attracted to women. I don’t remember CHOOSING to pop a huge boner when sweet little Jacquelyn Compton came back from summer vacation with the biggest tits in the class when I was a kid. It just happened because that’s how I was born.
[/quote]
Statistically you are speaking about a very, very, very small % of people in the world who are true Transgendered. It also takes a long time to determine that, it makes no sense to raise a child with the almost insignificant possibility that they are transgendered.

How many of those are also not true and are again just fucking looking for attention? [/quote]
Who cares if they’re looking for attention? There isn’t anything wrong with it in and of itself.

And yes, statistically speaking there are not many transgendered children. But I would be willing to bet that a huge majority of children who crossdress to the point where they’ll undergo ridicule at school ARE transgendered.

And here’s some significant statistics:
53% of LGBT students report being verbally abused by faculty and staff for their homosexuality or gender
90% of LGBTstudents report being verbally abused by their classmates
4 out of 5 LGBT students report not knowing One. SIngle. Supportive. Adult
80% of LGBT students have significant problems with cognitive, emotional and social isolation
50% of LGBT students report that neither parent supports their sexuality or gender
Depression strikes the LGBT student community at a rate 4 to 5 times that of the general student population
65% of LGBT students feel physically unsafe at school
41% of LGBT students have been physically assaulted by classmates, their parents or other people
33% of transgendered children have attempted suicide, more than 3 times the rate of the general student population

I’m sorry, but you’d have to be a complete monster to look at these statistics and decide that the solution is teaching your kid how to better hide his or her gender/sexuality.

We shouldn’t be teaching our kids to hide shit like that. We should be teaching them that there isn’t anything wrong with being transgendered, because THAT is the attitude that leads to all this persecutory behavior in the first place.[/quote]

Valid points, however what we should strive for is our sexuality NOT be our identity. As an employer I could give two shits, what someone believes in, fucks, sucks, licks or looks like. HOWEVER I do have a dress code and they have to follow that cause everyone else does. You cant have it both ways and as a father my job is to teach that to my children and also support them in understanding that the decisions they make have repercussions, good or bad. [/quote]

What if they dress. As a normal woman would? They don’t all act like Tina Turner drag queens. They aren’t gonna show up with big green wings and a long pink wig with violin shaped glasses.

Is the conservative look wrong? Well done make up and hair with proper work attire upset you? [/quote]
My staff wear scrubs, we are in the occupational medicine field, so they couldnt wear drag if they want, scrubs that we purchase for our employees are very NON-Gender. However if one of my male staff showed up wearing make up and high heels then that would upset me cause it would upset our client. Again what someone does on their own time is their time, however they are a representative of our company logo and when they are on company time they would be required to leave their sexual display at home.

68

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
@Cortes:

I don’t think your comparisons are valid at all. Do we suppress certain urges on a regular basis? Sure we do. But suppressing who you ARE is entirely different from not caving into every temptation possible. We exercise restraint, but not to the point where we can’t be who we are.

There is NO comparison whatsoever with having to wear a suit to work in a profession that mandates as much and living out the gender role you were born into. The fact is that if you were a transgendered man you would NOT have to conform and wear a suit to work. Your right to be free of employment discrimination based on sexuality is protected in this nature, and for a reason.

You don’t tell your kid “oh, you don’t GET to be transgendered.” No, the kid either is or he isn’t. If he isn’t, then wearing a dress is just some silly phase he’s going through and as much as most people on this site would be horrified at the thought of having a gay or transgendered child and will do whatever they can to suppress this, wearing a dress isn’t a definitive sign that this is the case. And if he IS transgendered then it’s entirely inappropriate to expect him to suppress this.

No one expects you to suppress the gender role that you were born into. No, you can’t act on every urge and you can’t just start saying and doing things that many find offensive simply because you think it’s masculine. There is a certain amount of respect that we must show others while we play out these gender roles, and THAT is where the suppression occurs.

And of course being gay or transgendered is a natural occurrence. Do you think people just CHOOSE to be gay or transgendered? There are many examples of transgendered children, the friend I mentioned being one, who were so confused at such an early age because they didn’t have any concept of sexuality and gender at that point. If they aren’t even equipped to make a choice about something they have NO concept about, how they can be choosing that path? If people CHOOSE to be gay or transgendered and this is not a natural occurrence, wouldn’t it then follow that being straight and traditionally gendered is also chosen? So at what age did you make the conscious decision to wear men’s clothing and start being attracted to women?

You didn’t. It just happened. You felt normal and in the proper role wearing men’s clothing and you just ARE attracted to women. I don’t remember CHOOSING to pop a huge boner when sweet little Jacquelyn Compton came back from summer vacation with the biggest tits in the class when I was a kid. It just happened because that’s how I was born.
[/quote]
Statistically you are speaking about a very, very, very small % of people in the world who are true Transgendered. It also takes a long time to determine that, it makes no sense to raise a child with the almost insignificant possibility that they are transgendered.

How many of those are also not true and are again just fucking looking for attention? [/quote]
Who cares if they’re looking for attention? There isn’t anything wrong with it in and of itself.

And yes, statistically speaking there are not many transgendered children. But I would be willing to bet that a huge majority of children who crossdress to the point where they’ll undergo ridicule at school ARE transgendered.

And here’s some significant statistics:
53% of LGBT students report being verbally abused by faculty and staff for their homosexuality or gender
90% of LGBTstudents report being verbally abused by their classmates
4 out of 5 LGBT students report not knowing One. SIngle. Supportive. Adult
80% of LGBT students have significant problems with cognitive, emotional and social isolation
50% of LGBT students report that neither parent supports their sexuality or gender
Depression strikes the LGBT student community at a rate 4 to 5 times that of the general student population
65% of LGBT students feel physically unsafe at school
41% of LGBT students have been physically assaulted by classmates, their parents or other people
33% of transgendered children have attempted suicide, more than 3 times the rate of the general student population

I’m sorry, but you’d have to be a complete monster to look at these statistics and decide that the solution is teaching your kid how to better hide his or her gender/sexuality.

We shouldn’t be teaching our kids to hide shit like that. We should be teaching them that there isn’t anything wrong with being transgendered, because THAT is the attitude that leads to all this persecutory behavior in the first place.[/quote]

Valid points, however what we should strive for is our sexuality NOT be our identity. As an employer I could give two shits, what someone believes in, fucks, sucks, licks or looks like. HOWEVER I do have a dress code and they have to follow that cause everyone else does. You cant have it both ways and as a father my job is to teach that to my children and also support them in understanding that the decisions they make have repercussions, good or bad. [/quote]

Yes. Again. Excellent.

The point efficiently and elegantly described.

[/quote]
But our sexuality IS part of our identity. The two are inextricably linked, which is why I feel that allowing the kid to wear a dress is no different than any other way a kid explores who he is.

Your job as a father certainly is to inform your children about the repercussions of their decisions. But in the case of a transgendered child, which is something that can certainly be apparent even at a young age, as it was with my aforementioned friend, there is no “decision” being made. They’re born that way, just like you and I were born straight and in the typical male gender role. You didn’t choose to be a member of the male gender and you didn’t choose to be heterosexual. There is no decision’s consequences to warn of.

As far as the dress code goes, I am not entirely sure about this, but I do believe that in the workplace a transgendered person is not required to wear clothing appropriate to their physical sex characteristics. A man born with the female gender is allowed to wear the same women’s clothing that any woman working there can wear. The same applies to women who are transgendered. I think the existence of the female “power suit” is evidence that we accept a slight amount of transgendered roles in the workplace anyways.

69

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Who cares if they’re looking for attention? There isn’t anything wrong with it in and of itself.

And yes, statistically speaking there are not many transgendered children. But I would be willing to bet that a huge majority of children who crossdress to the point where they’ll undergo ridicule at school ARE transgendered.

And here’s some significant statistics:
53% of LGBT students report being verbally abused by faculty and staff for their homosexuality or gender
90% of LGBTstudents report being verbally abused by their classmates
4 out of 5 LGBT students report not knowing One. SIngle. Supportive. Adult
80% of LGBT students have significant problems with cognitive, emotional and social isolation
50% of LGBT students report that neither parent supports their sexuality or gender
Depression strikes the LGBT student community at a rate 4 to 5 times that of the general student population
65% of LGBT students feel physically unsafe at school
41% of LGBT students have been physically assaulted by classmates, their parents or other people
33% of transgendered children have attempted suicide, more than 3 times the rate of the general student population

I’m sorry, but you’d have to be a complete monster to look at these statistics and decide that the solution is teaching your kid how to better hide his or her gender/sexuality.

We shouldn’t be teaching our kids to hide shit like that. We should be teaching them that there isn’t anything wrong with being transgendered, because THAT is the attitude that leads to all this persecutory behavior in the first place.[/quote]

What I’m wondering is at what age do you trust your child to be able to know where they stand from a sex and gender role standpoint? The original topic was about kids. If your 6 year old son wants to wear a dress to express himself or whatever, it would seem logical to me to tell that child “No, you’re wearing boy clothes.” Because I know at least when I was like 6, I probably thought eating chocolate for every meal of the day was a great fucking idea. I think the kid ought to at least be in high school before I would trust them to actually know how to feel about this issue. I mean hell, wouldn’t they even need to start puberty first or something?

70

Scenario A

Tommy: Daddy, why does Sean dress like a princess every day? Isn’t he a little boy like me? Can little boys dress like princesses too?

Daddy 1: ‘Cos Sean is a sissy. A future queer boy! His parents are a bunch of gays lovers. Fuck’ em.

Tommy: Daddy, can I dress like a princess too?

Daddy1: No son of mine dresses like a sissy! You hear me? What will people think of that shit? You’re a boy, a man, a straight man!

Tommy: Yes daddy. Sean is a sissy. I’m a man! Yipeeee!! Can I dress like a cowboy for school?

Daddy: You go ahead, son.

Scenario B

Adam: Daddy, why does Sean dress like a princess every day? Isn’t he a little boy like me? Can little boys dress like princesses too?

Daddy 2: Erm… well, Sean probably likes to dress like a princess instead of cowboy. He’s… different. He’s probably going through a phase.

Adam: What’s a phase, daddy?

Daddy2: Erm… well… Sean will eventually stop dressing like a girl.

Adam: What’s eventually, Daddy?

Daddy2: In the end… in the near future…

Adam: Can I dress like a princess, daddy?

Daddy 2: Erm, well… do you want to dress like a princess?

Adam: Not really. The other boys will laugh at me.

Daddy: That’s right. And we don’t want that, do we?

Adam: Yes Daddy. Can I laugh at Sean for dressing like a girl?

Daddy: No, you will not make fun of Sean. He’s different.

Adam: Okay, Daddy. I won’t make fun of Sean. Can I dress like a cowboy for school?

Daddy: You go ahead, son.

Adam: Yipeeee!!!

Scenario C:

Amy: Mom, there’s that boy Sean dressed like a princess.

Mom1: Woa… oh well, some parents know what they’re doing.

Amy: Mommy, since Sean dresses like a princess, can I wear that cowboy costume to school too? What about the Pirate one?

Mom 1: Of course, sweetheart.

Daddy: What’s up?

Mom: Amy’s going to school dressed as cowboy.

Daddy: Awesome!

Amy: Yipee!!

Scenario D

Lea: Mom, there’s that boy Sean dressed like a princess.

Mom2: His parents should be ashamed. I don’t even want to imagine what his future will be like.

Lea: Mommy, since Sean dresses like a princess, can I wear that pirate costume to school too? What about the cowboy one?

Mom2: No. You’ll dress normally like everybody else. You follow the rules. If you want to strive in this society as normally as possible, you ought to follow the rules.

Lea: But Mommy… cries Daddy! Daddy!

Daddy: What’s up?

Mom2 : She wants to go to school dressed as a pirate or a cowboy because Sean dresses like a fairy.

Daddy: No. No daughter of mine dresses like a man!

Amy: Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

71

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
@Cortes:

I don’t think your comparisons are valid at all. Do we suppress certain urges on a regular basis? Sure we do. But suppressing who you ARE is entirely different from not caving into every temptation possible. We exercise restraint, but not to the point where we can’t be who we are.

There is NO comparison whatsoever with having to wear a suit to work in a profession that mandates as much and living out the gender role you were born into. The fact is that if you were a transgendered man you would NOT have to conform and wear a suit to work. Your right to be free of employment discrimination based on sexuality is protected in this nature, and for a reason.

You don’t tell your kid “oh, you don’t GET to be transgendered.” No, the kid either is or he isn’t. If he isn’t, then wearing a dress is just some silly phase he’s going through and as much as most people on this site would be horrified at the thought of having a gay or transgendered child and will do whatever they can to suppress this, wearing a dress isn’t a definitive sign that this is the case. And if he IS transgendered then it’s entirely inappropriate to expect him to suppress this.

No one expects you to suppress the gender role that you were born into. No, you can’t act on every urge and you can’t just start saying and doing things that many find offensive simply because you think it’s masculine. There is a certain amount of respect that we must show others while we play out these gender roles, and THAT is where the suppression occurs.

And of course being gay or transgendered is a natural occurrence. Do you think people just CHOOSE to be gay or transgendered? There are many examples of transgendered children, the friend I mentioned being one, who were so confused at such an early age because they didn’t have any concept of sexuality and gender at that point. If they aren’t even equipped to make a choice about something they have NO concept about, how they can be choosing that path? If people CHOOSE to be gay or transgendered and this is not a natural occurrence, wouldn’t it then follow that being straight and traditionally gendered is also chosen? So at what age did you make the conscious decision to wear men’s clothing and start being attracted to women?

You didn’t. It just happened. You felt normal and in the proper role wearing men’s clothing and you just ARE attracted to women. I don’t remember CHOOSING to pop a huge boner when sweet little Jacquelyn Compton came back from summer vacation with the biggest tits in the class when I was a kid. It just happened because that’s how I was born.
[/quote]
Statistically you are speaking about a very, very, very small % of people in the world who are true Transgendered. It also takes a long time to determine that, it makes no sense to raise a child with the almost insignificant possibility that they are transgendered.

How many of those are also not true and are again just fucking looking for attention? [/quote]
Who cares if they’re looking for attention? There isn’t anything wrong with it in and of itself.

And yes, statistically speaking there are not many transgendered children. But I would be willing to bet that a huge majority of children who crossdress to the point where they’ll undergo ridicule at school ARE transgendered.

And here’s some significant statistics:
53% of LGBT students report being verbally abused by faculty and staff for their homosexuality or gender
90% of LGBTstudents report being verbally abused by their classmates
4 out of 5 LGBT students report not knowing One. SIngle. Supportive. Adult
80% of LGBT students have significant problems with cognitive, emotional and social isolation
50% of LGBT students report that neither parent supports their sexuality or gender
Depression strikes the LGBT student community at a rate 4 to 5 times that of the general student population
65% of LGBT students feel physically unsafe at school
41% of LGBT students have been physically assaulted by classmates, their parents or other people
33% of transgendered children have attempted suicide, more than 3 times the rate of the general student population

I’m sorry, but you’d have to be a complete monster to look at these statistics and decide that the solution is teaching your kid how to better hide his or her gender/sexuality.

We shouldn’t be teaching our kids to hide shit like that. We should be teaching them that there isn’t anything wrong with being transgendered, because THAT is the attitude that leads to all this persecutory behavior in the first place.[/quote]

Valid points, however what we should strive for is our sexuality NOT be our identity. As an employer I could give two shits, what someone believes in, fucks, sucks, licks or looks like. HOWEVER I do have a dress code and they have to follow that cause everyone else does. You cant have it both ways and as a father my job is to teach that to my children and also support them in understanding that the decisions they make have repercussions, good or bad. [/quote]

What if they dress. As a normal woman would? They don’t all act like Tina Turner drag queens. They aren’t gonna show up with big green wings and a long pink wig with violin shaped glasses.

Is the conservative look wrong? Well done make up and hair with proper work attire upset you? [/quote]
My staff wear scrubs, we are in the occupational medicine field, so they couldnt wear drag if they want, scrubs that we purchase for our employees are very NON-Gender. However if one of my male staff showed up wearing make up and high heels then that would upset me cause it would upset our client. Again what someone does on their own time is their time, however they are a representative of our company logo and when they are on company time they would be required to leave their sexual display at home. [/quote]

Well duh. Id be pissed if one of my female employees showed up with heels and club make up on.

The reasonable trans person wouldn’t do that especially after proving themselves worthy of getting the qualifications for that job…

They…like most women know when to slut up.

72

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Who cares if they’re looking for attention? There isn’t anything wrong with it in and of itself.

And yes, statistically speaking there are not many transgendered children. But I would be willing to bet that a huge majority of children who crossdress to the point where they’ll undergo ridicule at school ARE transgendered.

And here’s some significant statistics:
53% of LGBT students report being verbally abused by faculty and staff for their homosexuality or gender
90% of LGBTstudents report being verbally abused by their classmates
4 out of 5 LGBT students report not knowing One. SIngle. Supportive. Adult
80% of LGBT students have significant problems with cognitive, emotional and social isolation
50% of LGBT students report that neither parent supports their sexuality or gender
Depression strikes the LGBT student community at a rate 4 to 5 times that of the general student population
65% of LGBT students feel physically unsafe at school
41% of LGBT students have been physically assaulted by classmates, their parents or other people
33% of transgendered children have attempted suicide, more than 3 times the rate of the general student population

I’m sorry, but you’d have to be a complete monster to look at these statistics and decide that the solution is teaching your kid how to better hide his or her gender/sexuality.

We shouldn’t be teaching our kids to hide shit like that. We should be teaching them that there isn’t anything wrong with being transgendered, because THAT is the attitude that leads to all this persecutory behavior in the first place.[/quote]

What I’m wondering is at what age do you trust your child to be able to know where they stand from a sex and gender role standpoint? The original topic was about kids. If your 6 year old son wants to wear a dress to express himself or whatever, it would seem logical to me to tell that child “No, you’re wearing boy clothes.” Because I know at least when I was like 6, I probably thought eating chocolate for every meal of the day was a great fucking idea. I think the kid ought to at least be in high school before I would trust them to actually know how to feel about this issue. I mean hell, wouldn’t they even need to start puberty first or something?[/quote]
It’s different with every kid though. There isn’t a certain time when it just clicks and it isn’t like handing out driver’s licenses or the right to vote at 18.

I mentioned a friend of mine in my first post. He was only about 5 when he knew there was something different about him. He didn’t know what sexuality was or anything like that, but he knew that he felt uncomfortable and out of place even at that early age in girl’s clothing even though all the other girls wore them.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with simply asking the kid, even at an early age, if they are wearing the opposite sex’s clothing because they feel more comfortable this way. Perhaps you could ask them which bathroom they feel more comfortable using or who most of his friends in school are. Maybe most of his friends are girls. I think there are some signs that could indicate that, yes, your child may be transgendered.

Rather than stifle that I think the kid should be allowed to explore it and should be supported by his parents to do so. Because the statistical evidence highly suggests that there is a strong correlation between stunting and/or condemning a child’s sexuality/gender and later emotional, social and substance-abuse issues.

74

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:
Scenario A

Tommy: Daddy, why does Sean dress like a princess every day? Isn’t he a little boy like me? Can little boys dress like princesses too?

Daddy 1: ‘Cos Sean is a sissy. A future queer boy! His parents are a bunch of gays lovers. Fuck’ em.

Tommy: Daddy, can I dress like a princess too?

Daddy1: No son of mine dresses like a sissy! You hear me? What will people think of that shit? You’re a boy, a man, a straight man!

Tommy: Yes daddy. Sean is a sissy. I’m a man! Yipeeee!! Can I dress like a cowboy for school?

Daddy: You go ahead, son.

Scenario B

Adam: Daddy, why does Sean dress like a princess every day? Isn’t he a little boy like me? Can little boys dress like princesses too?

Daddy 2: Erm… well, Sean probably likes to dress like a princess instead of cowboy. He’s… different. He’s probably going through a phase.

Adam: What’s a phase, daddy?

Daddy2: Erm… well… Sean will eventually stop dressing like a girl.

Adam: What’s eventually, Daddy?

Daddy2: In the end… in the near future…

Adam: Can I dress like a princess, daddy?

Daddy 2: Erm, well… do you want to dress like a princess?

Adam: Not really. The other boys will laugh at me.

Daddy: That’s right. And we don’t want that, do we?

Adam: Yes Daddy. Can I laugh at Sean for dressing like a girl?

Daddy: No, you will not make fun of Sean. He’s different.

Adam: Okay, Daddy. I won’t make fun of Sean. Can I dress like a cowboy for school?

Daddy: You go ahead, son.

Adam: Yipeeee!!!

Scenario C:

Amy: Mom, there’s that boy Sean dressed like a princess.

Mom1: Woa… oh well, some parents know what they’re doing.

Amy: Mommy, since Sean dresses like a princess, can I wear that cowboy costume to school too? What about the Pirate one?

Mom 1: Of course, sweetheart.

Daddy: What’s up?

Mom: Amy’s going to school dressed as cowboy.

Daddy: Awesome!

Amy: Yipee!!

Scenario D

Lea: Mom, there’s that boy Sean dressed like a princess.

Mom2: His parents should be ashamed. I don’t even want to imagine what his future will be like.

Lea: Mommy, since Sean dresses like a princess, can I wear that pirate costume to school too? What about the cowboy one?

Mom2: No. You’ll dress normally like everybody else. You follow the rules. If you want to strive in this society as normally as possible, you ought to follow the rules.

Lea: But Mommy… cries Daddy! Daddy!

Daddy: What’s up?

Mom2 : She wants to go to school dressed as a pirate or a cowboy because Sean dresses like a fairy.

Daddy: No. No daughter of mine dresses like a man!

Amy: Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[/quote]
pretty much, except way more curse words, more grammatical errors and you forgot the kids that are totally ignored.

75

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:
Scenario A

Tommy: Daddy, why does Sean dress like a princess every day? Isn’t he a little boy like me? Can little boys dress like princesses too?

Daddy 1: ‘Cos Sean is a sissy. A future queer boy! His parents are a bunch of gays lovers. Fuck’ em.

Tommy: Daddy, can I dress like a princess too?

Daddy1: No son of mine dresses like a sissy! You hear me? What will people think of that shit? You’re a boy, a man, a straight man!

Tommy: Yes daddy. Sean is a sissy. I’m a man! Yipeeee!! Can I dress like a cowboy for school?

Daddy: You go ahead, son.

Scenario B

Adam: Daddy, why does Sean dress like a princess every day? Isn’t he a little boy like me? Can little boys dress like princesses too?

Daddy 2: Erm… well, Sean probably likes to dress like a princess instead of cowboy. He’s… different. He’s probably going through a phase.

Adam: What’s a phase, daddy?

Daddy2: Erm… well… Sean will eventually stop dressing like a girl.

Adam: What’s eventually, Daddy?

Daddy2: In the end… in the near future…

Adam: Can I dress like a princess, daddy?

Daddy 2: Erm, well… do you want to dress like a princess?

Adam: Not really. The other boys will laugh at me.

Daddy: That’s right. And we don’t want that, do we?

Adam: Yes Daddy. Can I laugh at Sean for dressing like a girl?

Daddy: No, you will not make fun of Sean. He’s different.

Adam: Okay, Daddy. I won’t make fun of Sean. Can I dress like a cowboy for school?

Daddy: You go ahead, son.

Adam: Yipeeee!!!

Scenario C:

Amy: Mom, there’s that boy Sean dressed like a princess.

Mom1: Woa… oh well, some parents know what they’re doing.

Amy: Mommy, since Sean dresses like a princess, can I wear that cowboy costume to school too? What about the Pirate one?

Mom 1: Of course, sweetheart.

Daddy: What’s up?

Mom: Amy’s going to school dressed as cowboy.

Daddy: Awesome!

Amy: Yipee!!

Scenario D

Lea: Mom, there’s that boy Sean dressed like a princess.

Mom2: His parents should be ashamed. I don’t even want to imagine what his future will be like.

Lea: Mommy, since Sean dresses like a princess, can I wear that pirate costume to school too? What about the cowboy one?

Mom2: No. You’ll dress normally like everybody else. You follow the rules. If you want to strive in this society as normally as possible, you ought to follow the rules.

Lea: But Mommy… cries Daddy! Daddy!

Daddy: What’s up?

Mom2 : She wants to go to school dressed as a pirate or a cowboy because Sean dresses like a fairy.

Daddy: No. No daughter of mine dresses like a man!

Amy: Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[/quote]

Good food for thought.

76

[quote]csulli wrote:
What I’m wondering is at what age do you trust your child to be able to know where they stand from a sex and gender role standpoint? The original topic was about kids. If your 6 year old son wants to wear a dress to express himself or whatever, it would seem logical to me to tell that child “No, you’re wearing boy clothes.” Because I know at least when I was like 6, I probably thought eating chocolate for every meal of the day was a great fucking idea. I think the kid ought to at least be in high school before I would trust them to actually know how to feel about this issue. I mean hell, wouldn’t they even need to start puberty first or something?[/quote]

I think the underlying premise to your question, and to other’s arguements, is that there is something harmful in allowing a 6 year old boy to wear a dress. In this case, it’s not like allowing them to eat chocolate cake for every meal, or watch 4 hours of TV a day, or any other activity which can either be shown to be harmful, or which reasonable people could agree would be harmful through some generally recognized mechanism of action. For example, allowing a 7 year old to watch Robocop might be seen as a parental choice, but I think most can agree that that level of violence is inappropriate for a 7 year old.

There is no demonstrable harm from allowing a 6 year old boy to wear a dress. To bring sexuality into the discussion only muddles it. Many times a young boy wearing a dress is just that and not some glimpse into his sexuality.

As a humorous aside, last Xmas my daughter wanted to know why our parish priest was wearing a violet dress during Lent.

77

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
@Cortes:

I don’t think your comparisons are valid at all. Do we suppress certain urges on a regular basis? Sure we do. But suppressing who you ARE is entirely different from not caving into every temptation possible. We exercise restraint, but not to the point where we can’t be who we are.

There is NO comparison whatsoever with having to wear a suit to work in a profession that mandates as much and living out the gender role you were born into. The fact is that if you were a transgendered man you would NOT have to conform and wear a suit to work. Your right to be free of employment discrimination based on sexuality is protected in this nature, and for a reason.

You don’t tell your kid “oh, you don’t GET to be transgendered.” No, the kid either is or he isn’t. If he isn’t, then wearing a dress is just some silly phase he’s going through and as much as most people on this site would be horrified at the thought of having a gay or transgendered child and will do whatever they can to suppress this, wearing a dress isn’t a definitive sign that this is the case. And if he IS transgendered then it’s entirely inappropriate to expect him to suppress this.

No one expects you to suppress the gender role that you were born into. No, you can’t act on every urge and you can’t just start saying and doing things that many find offensive simply because you think it’s masculine. There is a certain amount of respect that we must show others while we play out these gender roles, and THAT is where the suppression occurs.

And of course being gay or transgendered is a natural occurrence. Do you think people just CHOOSE to be gay or transgendered? There are many examples of transgendered children, the friend I mentioned being one, who were so confused at such an early age because they didn’t have any concept of sexuality and gender at that point. If they aren’t even equipped to make a choice about something they have NO concept about, how they can be choosing that path? If people CHOOSE to be gay or transgendered and this is not a natural occurrence, wouldn’t it then follow that being straight and traditionally gendered is also chosen? So at what age did you make the conscious decision to wear men’s clothing and start being attracted to women?

You didn’t. It just happened. You felt normal and in the proper role wearing men’s clothing and you just ARE attracted to women. I don’t remember CHOOSING to pop a huge boner when sweet little Jacquelyn Compton came back from summer vacation with the biggest tits in the class when I was a kid. It just happened because that’s how I was born.
[/quote]
Statistically you are speaking about a very, very, very small % of people in the world who are true Transgendered. It also takes a long time to determine that, it makes no sense to raise a child with the almost insignificant possibility that they are transgendered.

How many of those are also not true and are again just fucking looking for attention? [/quote]
Who cares if they’re looking for attention? There isn’t anything wrong with it in and of itself.

And yes, statistically speaking there are not many transgendered children. But I would be willing to bet that a huge majority of children who crossdress to the point where they’ll undergo ridicule at school ARE transgendered.

And here’s some significant statistics:
53% of LGBT students report being verbally abused by faculty and staff for their homosexuality or gender
90% of LGBTstudents report being verbally abused by their classmates
4 out of 5 LGBT students report not knowing One. SIngle. Supportive. Adult
80% of LGBT students have significant problems with cognitive, emotional and social isolation
50% of LGBT students report that neither parent supports their sexuality or gender
Depression strikes the LGBT student community at a rate 4 to 5 times that of the general student population
65% of LGBT students feel physically unsafe at school
41% of LGBT students have been physically assaulted by classmates, their parents or other people
33% of transgendered children have attempted suicide, more than 3 times the rate of the general student population

I’m sorry, but you’d have to be a complete monster to look at these statistics and decide that the solution is teaching your kid how to better hide his or her gender/sexuality.

We shouldn’t be teaching our kids to hide shit like that. We should be teaching them that there isn’t anything wrong with being transgendered, because THAT is the attitude that leads to all this persecutory behavior in the first place.[/quote]

Valid points, however what we should strive for is our sexuality NOT be our identity. As an employer I could give two shits, what someone believes in, fucks, sucks, licks or looks like. HOWEVER I do have a dress code and they have to follow that cause everyone else does. You cant have it both ways and as a father my job is to teach that to my children and also support them in understanding that the decisions they make have repercussions, good or bad. [/quote]

What if they dress. As a normal woman would? They don’t all act like Tina Turner drag queens. They aren’t gonna show up with big green wings and a long pink wig with violin shaped glasses.

Is the conservative look wrong? Well done make up and hair with proper work attire upset you? [/quote]
My staff wear scrubs, we are in the occupational medicine field, so they couldnt wear drag if they want, scrubs that we purchase for our employees are very NON-Gender. However if one of my male staff showed up wearing make up and high heels then that would upset me cause it would upset our client. Again what someone does on their own time is their time, however they are a representative of our company logo and when they are on company time they would be required to leave their sexual display at home. [/quote]

Well duh. Id be pissed if one of my female employees showed up with heels and club make up on.

The reasonable trans person wouldn’t do that especially after proving themselves worthy of getting the qualifications for that job…

They…like most women know when to slut up.[/quote]

Exactly there is appropriateness to life, as a parent that is what you are trying to instill.

NOT well I want to eat chicken nuggets, beat off in a jar of peanut butter and wear only my cock ring to the local library cause I am who I am and you all have to respect me.

78

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:
What I’m wondering is at what age do you trust your child to be able to know where they stand from a sex and gender role standpoint? The original topic was about kids. If your 6 year old son wants to wear a dress to express himself or whatever, it would seem logical to me to tell that child “No, you’re wearing boy clothes.” Because I know at least when I was like 6, I probably thought eating chocolate for every meal of the day was a great fucking idea. I think the kid ought to at least be in high school before I would trust them to actually know how to feel about this issue. I mean hell, wouldn’t they even need to start puberty first or something?[/quote]

I think the underlying premise to your question, and to other’s arguements, is that there is something harmful in allowing a 6 year old boy to wear a dress. In this case, it’s not like allowing them to eat chocolate cake for every meal, or watch 4 hours of TV a day, or any other activity which can either be shown to be harmful, or which reasonable people could agree would be harmful through some generally recognized mechanism of action. For example, allowing a 7 year old to watch Robocop might be seen as a parental choice, but I think most can agree that that level of violence is inappropriate for a 7 year old.

There is no demonstrable harm from allowing a 6 year old boy to wear a dress. To bring sexuality into the discussion only muddles it. Many times a young boy wearing a dress is just that and not some glimpse into his sexuality.

As a humorous aside, last Xmas my daughter wanted to know why our parish priest was wearing a violet dress during Lent. [/quote]
To build on this, any harm that does come from wearing a dress is a result of people’s responses to wearing the dress, not the actual act of wearing the dress itself. The response is what results in harm and the response is the behavior that should be stopped.

By asking the behavior that LEADS to the response to be stopped instead, it creates the impression (especially in the minds of young children) that the response is appropriate and the behavior that provokes it is not okay. If a parent asks that the action be stopped rather than the response to it, even if they support the child’s choice of clothing, it leads the child to believe that their own parents also think that it is okay for their kid to be made fun of.

79

I think what it comes down to is this: Children of all ages are going to explore as they become more aware of themselves. You can stifle that exploration and voice your disapproval in their curiosity, or you can let them know that your love for them as a parent is all-encompassing and there’s room for them to express themselves in nontraditional ways.

80

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
There is no demonstrable harm from allowing a 6 year old boy to wear a dress. To bring sexuality into the discussion only muddles it. Many times a young boy wearing a dress is just that and not some glimpse into his sexuality.[/quote]

Hold on a second, I may be out of school, but I still remember being a kid. In my experience, a boy dressing like a fairy at school would be WAY harmful to him socially, psychologically, and possibly physically.