Does the Leangains Fasting Method Work

Nutrition
41

DP: Good call and that is some interesting info. Both parties make a lot of sense. Each theory should work based on things we now know medically and in basic laws of science yet everyday we see things that are not affected by these theories. One thing against martin is he was already in the super lean group of life he has been able to maintain that and gain a great amount of muscle but it seems like his system was designed to be able to handle +cal over a legal limit.

My brother is one of these lucky SOBs (no offense to my mom) and I think we all have friends like this. He can eat bfast childrens cereals and quaker oats, Chipotle for lunch and get Burger King for Dinner+ what ever desert and maybe beer and he rocks an 8pack year round. He can put on muscle with easy if he stays consistent in the gym. For other peeps low carb isnt the way to go (I think Polquin has something based on the amount of sub scap fat should be able to tell you if you can handle higher or lower carbs?)
Ultra: I feel your pain, I dont know whats up with T-Nation but thats happened to myself a few times.

42

DP: COuld you link that reverse arguement by Martin please? I havent found it on his site. Thank you

43

can’t link it it…search google for “low carb talibans”…it is the first link…

44

Be aware that Kobiyashi does not gorge himself day in and day out as the obese often do. Not only does he weight train, but he eats in moderation most of the time. This is coming from a documentary where he discusses his eating habits outside of competition. When he does gorge, it’s definitely not on “clean foods”. Both of these points are in direct conflict with Taubes et. al and their metabolic advantage horseshit.

45

Word. I was going by things I had read of him online. The other guy from AZ who is the champ as of now (Ryan something or other) also in the same boat I believe minus weight training. That dude Adam from man vs food doesnt seem to be getting any bigger nor does paula dean and her fatty son, its like there is a cut off point or something going on behind the season. I think I have heard adam say he goes almost all veggie and little meat between shows.

The low carb article by martin is interesting. And while I do do this style of eating I am pretty sure that my cals are actually higher than before just following paleo and eating 4-5xs a day all the while I am leaning out BF wise and gaining muscle (not as quickly as I like but still).

Going through his “list” I see problems and now have questions I want to shoot to the ones who may have answers. Il be the first to admit I dont know everything and since we are pretty much in a community dedicated to the rhyme and reason for being bigger, faster, stronger, leaner etc. why not ask?

  1. From what I read in BCBC (and its a big book so if i miss qoute I apologize) Taubes doesnt take a low carb approach to everything but rather a cleaner carb approach and a lower carb approach for the rest of fat ass america. We know that insulin drives fat storage - right? Like thats a solid fact now?

Based off of most research today the general assumption for the population is an excessive intake in products that cause insulin levels to rise - mainly being processed, refined carbs and sugar. So if you were to make a general statement to the population it would be - lower intake of carbs and sugar is recommended ie a low carb diet.

  1. Protein does release insulin but not like most carbs. High fat diet- again I think the devil is in the detials (something Taubes got in trouble with including irritating me was not detailing a way to eat or guide).

  2. Im confused by his rebuttal here - this isnt true?

  3. Agreed - does this stand true for general population - absolutely not.

  4. So then the real key to Super lean is just a high protein diet? Low to no carb - no fat? If carbs and fat cause fat storage then removing either would clearly resolve the problem? Is Martin not believing that insulin causes fat storage?
    Why low carb really works?

Completely agree - at the end Martin sums it up by saying fruit and veggies is where the carbs should be coming from. I thought thats what we were all referring to by low carb (g’s kept under 100g - 70g - 50g depending on weight loss goals and body comp goals).
Then goes on to say - low carb used for treatment of diabetes - goes on to correct himself from zero carb and low carb.

Acutally about 1/2 the comments after that post are super interesting to read.

So progressing from the OP and taking all of this into considereationa and discussion - where are those who are doing LG cutting their cals from? What types of insulin regulation are (if any) you doing? Basically those out there doing LG - how do you do it?

46

listen.

It’s some time ago since i started this thread, since then i have gotten the book on leptin and read trough it.

And its become clear. all you really need to do is eat 3-4 meals a day, get protein at breakfast, have 4-6 hours between meals and dont eat within 3 hours of bed.

simple, leangains and all those kinds of diets are unnecessary, and arent healthy.

47

The point of the article is that there are way too many people who simply believe low carb is the solution…they ignore calories and push their dogmatic beliefs on others…

The truth is not paying attention to calories is a huge mistake…

Go to any low carb forum, you will see tons of people who are still fat…they hit a wall because they never reduce their calories to where they need to be…

48

[quote]ultralars wrote:
listen.

It’s some time ago since i started this thread, since then i have gotten the book on leptin and read trough it.

And its become clear. all you really need to do is eat 3-4 meals a day, get protein at breakfast, have 4-6 hours between meals and dont eat within 3 hours of bed.

simple, leangains and all those kinds of diets are unnecessary, and arent healthy. [/quote]

So you started this thread in an effort to discover the “perfect solution” to all things nutrition and now you’ve got it and you demand that we all listen? Because you read through one book?

It doesn’t really work like that, young grasshopper…

49

[quote]chillain wrote:

[quote]ultralars wrote:
listen.

It’s some time ago since i started this thread, since then i have gotten the book on leptin and read trough it.

And its become clear. all you really need to do is eat 3-4 meals a day, get protein at breakfast, have 4-6 hours between meals and dont eat within 3 hours of bed.

simple, leangains and all those kinds of diets are unnecessary, and arent healthy. [/quote]

So you started this thread in an effort to discover the “perfect solution” to all things nutrition and now you’ve got it and you demand that we all listen? Because you read through one book?

It doesn’t really work like that, young grasshopper…
[/quote]

do you over analyze everything like that?

you must have many friends.

50

[quote]ultralars wrote:
you must have many friends. [/quote]

:frowning:

51

[quote]ultralars wrote:
listen.

It’s some time ago since i started this thread, since then i have gotten the book on leptin and read trough it.

And its become clear. all you really need to do is eat 3-4 meals a day, get protein at breakfast, have 4-6 hours between meals and dont eat within 3 hours of bed.

simple, leangains and all those kinds of diets are unnecessary, and arent healthy. [/quote]

That’s pretty general advice, care to expand on it a bit. What’s the reasoning behind not eating 3 hours before bed? Why do you say that 16/8 intermittent fasting (leangains) is not healthy? I’m sedentary most of my morning, so skipping breakfast isn’t really depriving me much…

52

[quote]ds1973 wrote:

[quote]ultralars wrote:
listen.

It’s some time ago since i started this thread, since then i have gotten the book on leptin and read trough it.

And its become clear. all you really need to do is eat 3-4 meals a day, get protein at breakfast, have 4-6 hours between meals and dont eat within 3 hours of bed.

simple, leangains and all those kinds of diets are unnecessary, and arent healthy. [/quote]

That’s pretty general advice, care to expand on it a bit. What’s the reasoning behind not eating 3 hours before bed? Why do you say that 16/8 intermittent fasting (leangains) is not healthy? I’m sedentary most of my morning, so skipping breakfast isn’t really depriving me much…
[/quote]

Its called bullshit. bullshit. Every bodybuilder i know when preparing before a show have a meal before bed so that alone should tell you something. also it is about overal calories even martin has said that before. He says in his book and on the site that if your calories arent in order this approach will not work. its that simple. Read what Alan Aragon has to say he bases everything off of actual science and your eyes will be opened. Im not arguing with anyone here, Im stating facts in case anyone was offended.

53

[quote]ds1973 wrote:

[quote]ultralars wrote:
listen.

It’s some time ago since i started this thread, since then i have gotten the book on leptin and read trough it.

And its become clear. all you really need to do is eat 3-4 meals a day, get protein at breakfast, have 4-6 hours between meals and dont eat within 3 hours of bed.

simple, leangains and all those kinds of diets are unnecessary, and arent healthy. [/quote]

That’s pretty general advice, care to expand on it a bit. What’s the reasoning behind not eating 3 hours before bed? Why do you say that 16/8 intermittent fasting (leangains) is not healthy? I’m sedentary most of my morning, so skipping breakfast isn’t really depriving me much…
[/quote]
yeah well it’s not that important to not eat within 3 hours of bed but it will help to burn fat.
When you eat insulin rises, this turns of fat burning so that the body will extract energy from the food instead of the stored triglycerides. after about three hours, insulin levels has sunk and glycogen rises, glycogen takes energy from your fat to maintain blood sugar as well as from the liver. in a 60% to 40% fashion. This lasts trough the night if you dont eat within 3 hours of bed.

Leangains is unhealthy because it packs the meals closer together than they should be

why you should have 4-6 hours between meals:

Triglycerides released after eating needs time to be cleared from the blood, if not cleared you could stand at risk of getting leptin resistance, diabetes, adrenaline resistance, cardiac diseases, etc , etc.

Glycogen never rises and normal fat burning not related to exercise doesn’t take place.

Read byrons take on it

" Allow 5-6 hours between meals. Do not snack.

It is vital to create times during the day when small fat blobs, known as triglycerides, are cleared from your blood. If triglycerides build up during the day they physically clog leptin entry into your brain, causing leptin resistance â?? meaning that leptin cannot register properly in your subconscious command and control center. Your metabolism is not designed to deal with constant eating and snacking. Doing so confuses your metabolism and results in you eating much more than you really need. Eating too often is like a repetitive strain injury, like tennis elbow but in this case leptin elbow.

Yes, you are supposed to get a snack between meals â?? but it is supposed to come from your liver. This is how your body naturally clears triglycerides from your blood. Besides that fact that these fat blobs confuse leptin, they are also headed in the direction of your hips, thighs, and stomach. So breaking them down and clearing them out is vital, and this only happens when you allow 5-6 hours between meals. When you clear your circulatory highways of extra fat during the day then leptin works better. When you do a great job during the day then you are much more likely to break down and burn stored fat from your hips and thighs while you are sleeping.

Snacking turns out to be one of the worst things you can do. It doesnâ??t matter how many calories you snack on, when you snack you throw powerful hormonal switches that cause leptin to malfunction. The fictitious idea that snacking is needed to stoke your metabolism or maintain your blood sugar is in no small part behind dietary advice that has helped cause an epidemic of obesity.
"

Eating a protein rich breakfast can increase metabolism by 40 percentage preceding a meal, while a carbohydrate rich meal only increases it by about 5 %.

Why you should care about leptin resistance and such?

Cause leptin acts as the conductor in an orchestra, it coordinates the release of hormones like:

Thyroid hormones, growth hormones, Sex hormones, melatonin, etc. It also help to carry out immune system functions and to carry out rejuvenating sleep.

there is so much more to write but i just cant be bothered, just google the leptin diet or mastering leptin. watch byrons video and read his books.

54

Yeah, amazingly Byron actually explains his 5 rules for free in the video. How’s he plan on selling books?

I don’t claim to have a deep enough understanding to debate the leptin resistance arguement. I’ll have to see if I can understand this better or if there’s any research out there on this.

Martin actually cites research on his site showing a study that looked at blood glucose level and frequency of meals. You probably saw that. Turns out 3 is better than 6 for blood sugar control. Sp no real arguement there.

That comment about “clearing the triglycerides” may not be as important if your taking in higher protein meals like many of us do. In addition, with IF you’re trying to time meals close to your training on workout days. Training reduces blood triglycerides.

That comment about a protein rich breakfast increasing metabolism seems to derive from the Thermic Effect of Food argument. I believe Martin already busted that myth on his web site as well. The values are 20-30% for protein and 5% for carbs. This is not percent increase in metabolism, but % of calorie intake for each macronutrient that is used to process your meal. So you eat 200 cals of protein and you take 25% of that to process it (50 cals) so you effectively consumed a net 150 cals.

Finally, If you’re burning fat during sleep (say 8 hrs) and not eating anything 3 hours before sleep, then you have an 11 hour fast - probably 12 by the time you’re up and showered, etc. Do you seriously believe that going another 4 hours without food on top of that will stop your fat burning or drop your metabolism significantly?

Anyway, there’s nothing wrong with eating three meals a day at a calorie deficit to diet. This has worked for me before. Although from my own recent anecdotal experience I’d be worried about losing some strength if I didn’t take in the bulk of my calories around training since I workout in the evening.

Seems like for the average joe, 3 meals a day with no snacks and a built in 12 hour fast window would help them lose weight. However, for those of us concerned with preserving muscle, I think there is something to the nutrient timing that you get from IF.

55

[quote]ultralars wrote:

[quote]ds1973 wrote:

[quote]ultralars wrote:
listen.

It’s some time ago since i started this thread, since then i have gotten the book on leptin and read trough it.

And its become clear. all you really need to do is eat 3-4 meals a day, get protein at breakfast, have 4-6 hours between meals and dont eat within 3 hours of bed.

simple, leangains and all those kinds of diets are unnecessary, and arent healthy. [/quote]

That’s pretty general advice, care to expand on it a bit. What’s the reasoning behind not eating 3 hours before bed? Why do you say that 16/8 intermittent fasting (leangains) is not healthy? I’m sedentary most of my morning, so skipping breakfast isn’t really depriving me much…
[/quote]
yeah well it’s not that important to not eat within 3 hours of bed but it will help to burn fat.
When you eat insulin rises, this turns of fat burning so that the body will extract energy from the food instead of the stored triglycerides. after about three hours, insulin levels has sunk and glycogen rises, glycogen takes energy from your fat to maintain blood sugar as well as from the liver. in a 60% to 40% fashion. This lasts trough the night if you dont eat within 3 hours of bed.

Leangains is unhealthy because it packs the meals closer together than they should be

why you should have 4-6 hours between meals:

Triglycerides released after eating needs time to be cleared from the blood, if not cleared you could stand at risk of getting leptin resistance, diabetes, adrenaline resistance, cardiac diseases, etc , etc.

Glycogen never rises and normal fat burning not related to exercise doesn’t take place.

Read byrons take on it

" Allow 5-6 hours between meals. Do not snack.

It is vital to create times during the day when small fat blobs, known as triglycerides, are cleared from your blood. If triglycerides build up during the day they physically clog leptin entry into your brain, causing leptin resistance â?? meaning that leptin cannot register properly in your subconscious command and control center. Your metabolism is not designed to deal with constant eating and snacking. Doing so confuses your metabolism and results in you eating much more than you really need. Eating too often is like a repetitive strain injury, like tennis elbow but in this case leptin elbow.

Yes, you are supposed to get a snack between meals â?? but it is supposed to come from your liver. This is how your body naturally clears triglycerides from your blood. Besides that fact that these fat blobs confuse leptin, they are also headed in the direction of your hips, thighs, and stomach. So breaking them down and clearing them out is vital, and this only happens when you allow 5-6 hours between meals. When you clear your circulatory highways of extra fat during the day then leptin works better. When you do a great job during the day then you are much more likely to break down and burn stored fat from your hips and thighs while you are sleeping.

Snacking turns out to be one of the worst things you can do. It doesnâ??t matter how many calories you snack on, when you snack you throw powerful hormonal switches that cause leptin to malfunction. The fictitious idea that snacking is needed to stoke your metabolism or maintain your blood sugar is in no small part behind dietary advice that has helped cause an epidemic of obesity.
"

Eating a protein rich breakfast can increase metabolism by 40 percentage preceding a meal, while a carbohydrate rich meal only increases it by about 5 %.

Why you should care about leptin resistance and such?

Cause leptin acts as the conductor in an orchestra, it coordinates the release of hormones like:

Thyroid hormones, growth hormones, Sex hormones, melatonin, etc. It also help to carry out immune system functions and to carry out rejuvenating sleep.

there is so much more to write but i just cant be bothered, just google the leptin diet or mastering leptin. watch byrons video and read his books. [/quote]

So Byron suggests longer gaps between meals in order to clear fatty acids from the blood stream?

So a roughly 16 hour gap between meals doesn’t accomplish that?

I don’t really see how anything you just posted illustrates why leangains is unnecessary and unhealthy, since it seems that Byron has a problem with frequent meals and snacking. Are you sure you know what you’re arguing against?

56

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]ultralars wrote:

[quote]ds1973 wrote:

[quote]ultralars wrote:
listen.

It’s some time ago since i started this thread, since then i have gotten the book on leptin and read trough it.

And its become clear. all you really need to do is eat 3-4 meals a day, get protein at breakfast, have 4-6 hours between meals and dont eat within 3 hours of bed.

simple, leangains and all those kinds of diets are unnecessary, and arent healthy. [/quote]

That’s pretty general advice, care to expand on it a bit. What’s the reasoning behind not eating 3 hours before bed? Why do you say that 16/8 intermittent fasting (leangains) is not healthy? I’m sedentary most of my morning, so skipping breakfast isn’t really depriving me much…
[/quote]
yeah well it’s not that important to not eat within 3 hours of bed but it will help to burn fat.
When you eat insulin rises, this turns of fat burning so that the body will extract energy from the food instead of the stored triglycerides. after about three hours, insulin levels has sunk and glycogen rises, glycogen takes energy from your fat to maintain blood sugar as well as from the liver. in a 60% to 40% fashion. This lasts trough the night if you dont eat within 3 hours of bed.

Leangains is unhealthy because it packs the meals closer together than they should be

why you should have 4-6 hours between meals:

Triglycerides released after eating needs time to be cleared from the blood, if not cleared you could stand at risk of getting leptin resistance, diabetes, adrenaline resistance, cardiac diseases, etc , etc.

Glycogen never rises and normal fat burning not related to exercise doesn’t take place.

Read byrons take on it

" Allow 5-6 hours between meals. Do not snack.

It is vital to create times during the day when small fat blobs, known as triglycerides, are cleared from your blood. If triglycerides build up during the day they physically clog leptin entry into your brain, causing leptin resistance �¢?? meaning that leptin cannot register properly in your subconscious command and control center. Your metabolism is not designed to deal with constant eating and snacking. Doing so confuses your metabolism and results in you eating much more than you really need. Eating too often is like a repetitive strain injury, like tennis elbow but in this case leptin elbow.

Yes, you are supposed to get a snack between meals �¢?? but it is supposed to come from your liver. This is how your body naturally clears triglycerides from your blood. Besides that fact that these fat blobs confuse leptin, they are also headed in the direction of your hips, thighs, and stomach. So breaking them down and clearing them out is vital, and this only happens when you allow 5-6 hours between meals. When you clear your circulatory highways of extra fat during the day then leptin works better. When you do a great job during the day then you are much more likely to break down and burn stored fat from your hips and thighs while you are sleeping.

Snacking turns out to be one of the worst things you can do. It doesn�¢??t matter how many calories you snack on, when you snack you throw powerful hormonal switches that cause leptin to malfunction. The fictitious idea that snacking is needed to stoke your metabolism or maintain your blood sugar is in no small part behind dietary advice that has helped cause an epidemic of obesity.
"

Eating a protein rich breakfast can increase metabolism by 40 percentage preceding a meal, while a carbohydrate rich meal only increases it by about 5 %.

Why you should care about leptin resistance and such?

Cause leptin acts as the conductor in an orchestra, it coordinates the release of hormones like:

Thyroid hormones, growth hormones, Sex hormones, melatonin, etc. It also help to carry out immune system functions and to carry out rejuvenating sleep.

there is so much more to write but i just cant be bothered, just google the leptin diet or mastering leptin. watch byrons video and read his books. [/quote]

So Byron suggests longer gaps between meals in order to clear fatty acids from the blood stream?

So a roughly 16 hour gap between meals doesn’t accomplish that?

I don’t really see how anything you just posted illustrates why leangains is unnecessary and unhealthy, since it seems that Byron has a problem with frequent meals and snacking. Are you sure you know what you’re arguing against?[/quote]

Leangains is unhealthy because the gap between each meal become smaller when you need all your calories in 8 hours.

57

I tried IF for two days but become very disgruntled, tired, and failed at lifting.

58

High leptin does NOT equal high metabolic rate…just normal

It operates as a defense mechanism against fat loss…when you restrict calories, your body deceases leptin…

when you increase calories(carbs mainly), your body raises leptin…but it has minimal effect on increasing metabolic rate beyond normal…

the only way to raise leptin during a calorie deficit is to do large refeeds of carbs…

That book seems super gimicky…he may have some factual science thrown in there…but, the actual application of science is poor…

59

[quote]ultralars wrote:

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]ultralars wrote:

[quote]ds1973 wrote:

[quote]ultralars wrote:
listen.

It’s some time ago since i started this thread, since then i have gotten the book on leptin and read trough it.

And its become clear. all you really need to do is eat 3-4 meals a day, get protein at breakfast, have 4-6 hours between meals and dont eat within 3 hours of bed.

simple, leangains and all those kinds of diets are unnecessary, and arent healthy. [/quote]

That’s pretty general advice, care to expand on it a bit. What’s the reasoning behind not eating 3 hours before bed? Why do you say that 16/8 intermittent fasting (leangains) is not healthy? I’m sedentary most of my morning, so skipping breakfast isn’t really depriving me much…
[/quote]
yeah well it’s not that important to not eat within 3 hours of bed but it will help to burn fat.
When you eat insulin rises, this turns of fat burning so that the body will extract energy from the food instead of the stored triglycerides. after about three hours, insulin levels has sunk and glycogen rises, glycogen takes energy from your fat to maintain blood sugar as well as from the liver. in a 60% to 40% fashion. This lasts trough the night if you dont eat within 3 hours of bed.

Leangains is unhealthy because it packs the meals closer together than they should be

why you should have 4-6 hours between meals:

Triglycerides released after eating needs time to be cleared from the blood, if not cleared you could stand at risk of getting leptin resistance, diabetes, adrenaline resistance, cardiac diseases, etc , etc.

Glycogen never rises and normal fat burning not related to exercise doesn’t take place.

Read byrons take on it

" Allow 5-6 hours between meals. Do not snack.

It is vital to create times during the day when small fat blobs, known as triglycerides, are cleared from your blood. If triglycerides build up during the day they physically clog leptin entry into your brain, causing leptin resistance �?�¢?? meaning that leptin cannot register properly in your subconscious command and control center. Your metabolism is not designed to deal with constant eating and snacking. Doing so confuses your metabolism and results in you eating much more than you really need. Eating too often is like a repetitive strain injury, like tennis elbow but in this case leptin elbow.

Yes, you are supposed to get a snack between meals �?�¢?? but it is supposed to come from your liver. This is how your body naturally clears triglycerides from your blood. Besides that fact that these fat blobs confuse leptin, they are also headed in the direction of your hips, thighs, and stomach. So breaking them down and clearing them out is vital, and this only happens when you allow 5-6 hours between meals. When you clear your circulatory highways of extra fat during the day then leptin works better. When you do a great job during the day then you are much more likely to break down and burn stored fat from your hips and thighs while you are sleeping.

Snacking turns out to be one of the worst things you can do. It doesn�?�¢??t matter how many calories you snack on, when you snack you throw powerful hormonal switches that cause leptin to malfunction. The fictitious idea that snacking is needed to stoke your metabolism or maintain your blood sugar is in no small part behind dietary advice that has helped cause an epidemic of obesity.
"

Eating a protein rich breakfast can increase metabolism by 40 percentage preceding a meal, while a carbohydrate rich meal only increases it by about 5 %.

Why you should care about leptin resistance and such?

Cause leptin acts as the conductor in an orchestra, it coordinates the release of hormones like:

Thyroid hormones, growth hormones, Sex hormones, melatonin, etc. It also help to carry out immune system functions and to carry out rejuvenating sleep.

there is so much more to write but i just cant be bothered, just google the leptin diet or mastering leptin. watch byrons video and read his books. [/quote]

So Byron suggests longer gaps between meals in order to clear fatty acids from the blood stream?

So a roughly 16 hour gap between meals doesn’t accomplish that?

I don’t really see how anything you just posted illustrates why leangains is unnecessary and unhealthy, since it seems that Byron has a problem with frequent meals and snacking. Are you sure you know what you’re arguing against?[/quote]

Leangains is unhealthy because the gap between each meal become smaller when you need all your calories in 8 hours.

[/quote]

Except for that 16 hour gap were you’re not eating?

60

wouldnt 3 hours before bed also have to do with digestion? some people would be unable to digest before lights out also there would be a ever fluxing issue of consistant bed times and one of actual sleep times. just because you lie down doesnt mean youre sleeping. if youre getting 7 hrs and you stop eating 3 before arent you technically fasting for 10hrs?

I havent read anything from Aragon - only heard that he is a complete moron but like I said I havent read anything from him. Il get on it.

at the end of the day - and i am looking into it as to not have a dogmatic opinion - im not with the simple equation of body weight = cal in vs cal out. Im also mainly just concerned with body fat not body weight, this law is set up for body weight, from what ive seen. If anyone can post links on studies or what not I would love to read em. I know I hold fat on my body due to metabolic problems such as insulin sensitivity issues and some slight hormonal I dont think it has to do with cals because I believe my cals would b too low for day to day basis anyway. I only eat 2x a day and try to pack everything into those two meals.