Does Prayer Work? Is There a God?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
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[quote]pat wrote:
No, I don’t believe he is going favor one person over another for any reason. I am not sure what that has to do with answering prayers though. I do believe if you ask for blessings, understanding, stuff, etc. You will get an answer to such things, but asking to be favored over another, that’s kind of a dick headed thing to ask for? That’s like one of your kids come up to you and asking you to like them more…[/quote]

Follow up question, since you seem to be focusing on the comparative aspect while the earlier question wasn’t limited to that:

Do you believe that god has ever, even once, blessed a person in a material, observable way based on prayer, and that god would not have done so if the prayer hadn’t been offered?

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I decided to give it another chance, I dont have anything to lose. I made my prayers very specific, I will let T-Nation know how it works out.

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[quote]clip11 wrote:
I decided to give it another chance, I dont have anything to lose. I made my prayers very specific, I will let T-Nation know how it works out.[/quote]

Go for it! Everything will be fine…It always is.

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[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
No, I don’t believe he is going favor one person over another for any reason. I am not sure what that has to do with answering prayers though. I do believe if you ask for blessings, understanding, stuff, etc. You will get an answer to such things, but asking to be favored over another, that’s kind of a dick headed thing to ask for? That’s like one of your kids come up to you and asking you to like them more…

Follow up question, since you seem to be focusing on the comparative aspect while the earlier question wasn’t limited to that:

Do you believe that god has ever, even once, blessed a person in a material, observable way based on prayer, and that god would not have done so if the prayer hadn’t been offered?[/quote]

Absolutely! I am living proof…

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[quote]Headhunter wrote:
No Law of Science can be proven. We can only say: ‘To the best of our knowledge…’. Laws are based on empirical data and are truly only probabilities.

Yet we accept them and are fine with them.

The probability that an ordered world exists by chance is infinitly small. Something must have provided the order, with an extremely high level of probability.

Pr(God) = 1 - Pr(no God)

The probabilty on the left is infinitely close to 1.

(I know its the old argument from design, but what the hey)[/quote]

Bullshit, the world is only ordered because we who are part of it look at it in an ordered way. Given enough time and space pretty much anything can happen, therefore in a huge Universe which has been here for a very long time we should not be surprised to see things happen that at first glance seem improbable.

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[quote]Sloth wrote:
Heh. I guess this disproves all those prayer only Christian cardiac clinics. While the forehead slapping “you are healed!” types might be dissapointed, I’m not surprised. Whatever physical intercessions do take place, are probably going to be too few in number to even register in some study (or, studies). Like, once in a very, very, deep dark-blue moon. After all, I’m sure our Christian martyrs also prayed for deliverance from their deaths, if it was his will.

Prayer is for thanks-giving, worship, contrition, etc. Bascially, spiritual matters. Now we might put foward a worldy, request, yes. If it’s his will, let it be done. If not, so be it. Christ had to suffer, and Christians still have to put in their recovery time after a cardiac event.

Nah, to be honest, I didn’t realize I could succumb to illness and death until this thread. Next topic, please![/quote]

Unfortunately that is not what Jesus said in the bible. He was quite specific on it

If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. [Matthew 21:21]

If you ask anything in my name, I will do it. [John 14:14]

Ask, and it will be given you. [Matthew 7:7]

Nothing will be impossible to you. [Matthew 17:20]

Believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. [Mark 11:24]

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[quote]Sloth wrote:
Buff HardBack wrote:
Sloth wrote:
rohay wrote:
Buff HardBack wrote:
Again I will ask this question because, for reasons unknown, no one wants to give me an answer. Why hasnt god ever in recorded history healed an amputee? Im guessing plenty of them have prayed for a limb back.

I would also like to hear a response to this. I am curious. SLOTH or any others here. It is curious to me that folks seem to be avoiding these questions about why won’t God heal amputees. If any of you folks who believe in God and/or prayer have any answer to this simple, but very important question, it would add to this very good dialogue.

You might as well ask why God doesn’t heal esophageal varices.

Some of us believe Christ and the apostles worked miracles. Perhaps some of us believe Saints have worked a miracle or two. Were any amputees healed? Off the top of my head, I have no idea.

To answer your question…no. Throughout recorded human history there has never been one recorded instance of an amputee regaining a lost limp. If there is a god, then what is his beef with amputees?

What’s his beef with those suffering from peanut allergies? Read my posts for a position on prayer, the reason for prayer, etc.[/quote]

God already took care of that one, see quote at the end of linked story

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-central/78084-hope-for-peanut-allergy-sufferers/

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[quote]pat wrote:
Do you believe that god has ever, even once, blessed a person in a material, observable way based on prayer, and that god would not have done so if the prayer hadn’t been offered?

Absolutely! I am living proof…[/quote]

Then you do believe god answers prayers in a material way, more often than would be expected by chance alone. That hypothesis can be tested, because it only requires demonstrating even a very slight effect over chance alone. Unfortunately, to date studies testing that hypothesis have demonstrated zero effects for prayer over what would be expected by chance alone.

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[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
Do you believe that god has ever, even once, blessed a person in a material, observable way based on prayer, and that god would not have done so if the prayer hadn’t been offered?

Absolutely! I am living proof…

Then you do believe god answers prayers in a material way, more often than would be expected by chance alone. That hypothesis can be tested, because it only requires demonstrating even a very slight effect over chance alone. Unfortunately, to date studies testing that hypothesis have demonstrated zero effects for prayer over what would be expected by chance alone.[/quote]

Incorrect. God is not a proprietor of goods and services. He’s not going to do things so you can test a hypothesis. You cannot know for certain, that what happened was due to one thing or another. You can guess and assume, but certainty is out the window.
Now, in your little experiment that you seem to have 100% faith in, all the folks in the experiment could have been prayed for by themselves or others, even more vigorously so than, the three Christian groups who where requested to do so for an experiment. This is more than just a little statistical “noise”.
So what you are comparing is the recovery rates of people who were prayed for by three Christian groups and others who were prayed for by friends, family, perhaps other church groups and themselves. You want to give this garbage weight? I think you’d get better results from pookie’s vacuum cleaner.

If you want to perform this experiment legitimately. You would need a sample group of atheist patients and their families and friend who vow not to pray for them in anyway, and then have some Christian groups pray for some of them and see what happens…At least you have some controls, where as the other virtually had none.

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maybe they were just praying to the wrong god. Maybe if they re-did the experiment with Vishnu everyone would have been healed.

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[quote]pat wrote:
Incorrect. God is not a proprietor of goods and services. He’s not going to do things so you can test a hypothesis. You cannot know for certain, that what happened was due to one thing or another. [/quote]

You just said that you believe your god blesses people in the material world more often than would be expected by chance alone. If there is any credibility to your claim, you can test to see if that is in fact the case.

Contrary to what you said earlier, it doesn’t require every prayer to be answered. It only requires your god to occasionally (even very rarel) bless people in a material way, more often than would occur from chance.

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[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
maybe they were just praying to the wrong god. Maybe if they re-did the experiment with Vishnu everyone would have been healed.[/quote]

According to him, Vishnu = god, just by another name. Now, praying to Ganesha would be a real test.

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[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
Incorrect. God is not a proprietor of goods and services. He’s not going to do things so you can test a hypothesis. You cannot know for certain, that what happened was due to one thing or another.

You just said that you believe your god blesses people in the material world more often than would be expected by chance alone. If there is any credibility to your claim, you can test to see if that is in fact the case.

Contrary to what you said earlier, it doesn’t require every prayer to be answered. It only requires your god to occasionally (even very rarel) bless people in a material way, more often than would occur from chance.[/quote]

No, you cannot be blessed by “chance” now can you. You cannot quantify prayer…

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[quote]pat wrote:
mbm693 wrote:
pat wrote:
mbm693 wrote:
pat wrote:
mbm693 wrote:
pat wrote:
mbm693 wrote:
pat wrote:
It’s like trying to measure how much your love affects your wife or girl friend. If you take an event and try to ascertain how much your love would alter the outcome of that event that involves wife/gf could you measure that? Of course you cannot.

This study is specifically about the health of patients who were prayed for. Much research has been done on the relative health of married women (presumably in love) vs their single peers. Seems to me you can you measure how much love alters the outcome.

How do you they were loved? What is the measuring stick for that?

There are many ways. Ask their husbands, ask their friends about their husbands, give their husbands brain scans while you show them pictures of their wives, or measure their seretonin and dopamin responses while their wife talks about the weather, ect ect. Check these methods against each other and use a huge sample size and this should be a pretty easy study to design.

Oh brother, really? Give 'em brain scans? That might work on newly weds, but love is a lot more than a good feeling. Still, can increase dopamine levels equal love? So, if you walked up to me and shook my hand and your dopamine levels happened to jump, does that mean you love me? I guess coke heads are just a bunch of lovers then because there neurotransmitter levels jump like hell when they toot.

That’s a real perty straw man you’ve got there.

That’s not a strawman. I am attacking the premise that measurable neurotransmitter behavior can be link to emotion or feeling reliably. That is a huge problem for your presented scenario.

It is a straw man in that you completely ignored most of the content of my post, as well as the context I mention dopamine. If you’re willing to actually address what I posted, I’ll continue debating, but you’re currently way off course.

That’s not what strawman is, btw. The bottom line is this, you first have to define what love is before you could measure, do you not? How can you measure something that, of the many facets it has, many are not physically tangible…You aren’t seriously going to argue that “love” is merely a series of electo-chemical reations are you? You can’t generate love in a petrie dish.
[/quote]

Love is just an electro-chemical reaction. As such, you could put it in a petri dish. But lets give you the benefit of the doubt and say you’re right, anything you can’t put in a petri dish is magical and outside the purview of science. You can’t put a computer program in a petri dish either, is it magical too?

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[quote]pat wrote:

You still don’t know what a red herring is. In no way did I try to divert the debate. This whole notion he dropped in the debate about the gods in our heads was a clear attempt to divert the topic from prayer, to God is made up…That is a diversion.
Now I have already answered this as clear as day. If you are worshiping the creator of all, the supreme being you are worshiping God, if the being you are worshiping does not match that definition, then you are not worshiping God.
Ganesha is one of hindu’s lesser “gods” and hence does not fit the definition, nor do hindus claim he does. Vishnu is God in Hiduism…It is our limitations in the english language that results us in calling hindu’s other deities as gods. They don’t see it that way, they see them selves as monotheistic…I talked to a hindu about it at great length about a decade ago. The details are fuzzy, but the basics are there.
Now what does this have to do with whether prayer works or not? That’s right it doesn’t, which is what made this a perfect example of what a red herring is. It was a diversion to another topic. If you want to discuss the existence of God or His nature those are different conversations.[/quote]

You did divert the debate, probably not intentionally, but you did it just the same. Go back and look. You randomly start telling forlife that he’s really talking about whether or not god exists, and then tell him that god’s existence is a topic for another thread.

As to you other comment, no devout religious person stops their concept of god at “the creator of all, the supreme being”. There are lots of other fun ‘facts’ each religion and it’s followers like to add to the equation. That’s why their gods are different. Allah does not equal Jesus.

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[quote]pat wrote:

It not about measurable results, though measurable results can and do happen. That’s the point. God’s is not a vending machine where you put in a prayer and a get a product or service, that’s not how it works.[/quote]

OH! So NOW prayer can produce measurable results? If it can, where are they, I’d like to measure them. I’m a little confused though as this is completly contrary to all your recent posts where you told us that god is going to do what he’s going to regardless of whether we ask him. I mean, if I pray and he rewards me with inner peace, doesn’t the mean he’s favored me somehow. I know plenty of people that pray and haven’t ever gotten any inner peace, I would certainly have been favored over them. Was he going to give me inner peace weather I prayed or not? If he was, what good was the prayer?

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[quote]mbm693 wrote:
I’m a little confused though as this is completly contrary to all your recent posts[/quote]

Well pat is a lot confused, so be glad you didn’t catch more of it.

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Ive been following this thread and i honestly didnt expect it to get so many responses. But my problem is with church is that everything is so super-spiritual. Nothing is practical. Me praying for more love to love my neighbor is not practical when I need good employment. I know there are some who would argue differently, but in my life, church has failed to produce any tangible results. There are several passages in the bible where it says prayer reduces tangible results such as in Matthew 7:7 and in other places, but I have yet to see it.

And when it doesnt then theres always the excuses: 1. You didnt have enough faith 2. Thats a figurative statement 3. Youre interpreting it wrong.

im at a point in life where its not good enogh for me to just believe it because ive been told to all my life. I am questioning church and I am questioning the bible, I just cant blindly believe it just because. And if I am to believe it, it has to work in my everyday life with my real concerns. Not just that ill get pie in the sky, after im cold and dead of course.

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[quote]usctrojansfan wrote:
Here is what many believe…

When someone Prays, takes a pill or a Placebo for that matter, they all have one thing in common. They surrender. They let go. Majority if not ALL human beings are so emotionally attached through addiction, comfort, and other subconscience messages, they cannot do this alone. It’s nearly impossible for them and we haven’t been taught to. This takes practise which is another topic.

Think about what your body or even this Earth can do all on it’s own. If you want to believe in an indvidual God or a unified God, it’s up to you. For the sake of this post, I don’t give a fuck. Something or for some people, someone is keeping you alive. It’s keeping the Earth alive. Your body is pumping blood in and out of your heart, it’s digesting your food and it’s regulating your hormones every single day all at the same time just for you and not mention, nature and the solar system.

When someone surrenders their personality using Prayer, a pill or Placebo, they let go of themselves and they let go of the situation to let this same God or Intelligence take over. The VERY SAME shit that keeps you alive on a daily basic. THIS VERY SAME SHIT that grew you when you were in the fetus starting out as two cells. Your doctor did not do this for you.

Thats my take on why Prayer works and doesn’t work. It’s about surrender. There are so many variables to argue this I know but it’s just one post. [/quote]

So what you’re saying is that in order for prayer to be effective, one must consciously submit oneself to a higher power, be it God or medical science. Put another way, prayer, and getting an answer to one’s prayers, is all about submission.

Anybody know how to say the word “submission” in Arabic?

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I’m wondering how many have you actually studied holy writ, orthodox writ, or anything of that nature.

First, God is our Father. Not our all obeying servant. Second, Prayer is not ask God for things time, it’s conversation time. Would you go up to someone you know and just always ask them for stuff? No, now the relationship with God, there is a time to ask him for things you need, or want. Yet, you still need to pray for God, for his Kingdom to rule, for his forgiveness, for lively hood, for him to lead you, and other stuff like prayer, etc.