Does Prayer Work? Is There a God?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
322

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
usctrojansfan wrote:
Here is what many believe…

When someone Prays, takes a pill or a Placebo for that matter, they all have one thing in common. They surrender. They let go. Majority if not ALL human beings are so emotionally attached through addiction, comfort, and other subconscience messages, they cannot do this alone. It’s nearly impossible for them and we haven’t been taught to. This takes practise which is another topic.

Think about what your body or even this Earth can do all on it’s own. If you want to believe in an indvidual God or a unified God, it’s up to you. For the sake of this post, I don’t give a fuck. Something or for some people, someone is keeping you alive. It’s keeping the Earth alive. Your body is pumping blood in and out of your heart, it’s digesting your food and it’s regulating your hormones every single day all at the same time just for you and not mention, nature and the solar system.

When someone surrenders their personality using Prayer, a pill or Placebo, they let go of themselves and they let go of the situation to let this same God or Intelligence take over. The VERY SAME shit that keeps you alive on a daily basic. THIS VERY SAME SHIT that grew you when you were in the fetus starting out as two cells. Your doctor did not do this for you.

Thats my take on why Prayer works and doesn’t work. It’s about surrender. There are so many variables to argue this I know but it’s just one post.

So what you’re saying is that in order for prayer to be effective, one must consciously submit oneself to a higher power, be it God or medical science. Put another way, prayer, and getting an answer to one’s prayers, is all about submission.

Anybody know how to say the word “submission” in Arabic?
[/quote]

Not exactly, “or medical science”? That’s not true, only YWHW. Prayer is always answered first off, no is an answer. If you want to be a three year old child, then I guess you can assume no is not an acceptable answer.

Yes, you have to be meek in the eyes of God, meek is actually the word used. Meek however is much different today, then what it used to be. Jesus was meek, yet he tore a synagogue apart. Further to come…

323

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Anybody know how to say the word “submission” in Arabic?
[/quote]

Boom?

324

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Yet, you still need to pray for God… and other stuff like prayer, etc.[/quote]

You need to pray for (to?) God for stuff like prayer?

Wow, Christian Circular Logic used to be a bit more involved.

When you pray for prayer, what do you get?

325

[quote]pookie wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Yet, you still need to pray for God… and other stuff like prayer, etc.

You need to pray for (to?) God for stuff like prayer?

Wow, Christian Circular Logic used to be a bit more involved.

When you pray for prayer, what do you get?

[/quote]

Made me laugh, pray over scripture is what I was thinking.

326

[quote]pat wrote:
No, you cannot be blessed by “chance” now can you. You cannot quantify prayer…[/quote]

Dude, you’re seriously not getting it.

We’re not talking about being blessed by “chance”. Chance, in statistical jargon, refers to outcomes due to variables other than what is being specifically addressed in the study. It’s also referred to as “statistical noise” (see the reference I provided earlier).

The point is that a certain number of positive outcomes are expected to occur due to completely natural causes (for example, spontanteous remission of cancer).

In order to demonstrate a supernatural effect, you have to show that more positive outcomes occur than could be explained solely by the above.

Claims that people experience supernatural “blessings” in the material world can be measured, and compared to the normal, mundane incidence of such outcomes. Unfortunately, in studies where this has been investigated, there is zero evidence for any difference. Regardless of claims of supernatural intervention, the number of positive outcomes remains what would be expected through purely natural causes.

327

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I’m wondering how many have you actually studied holy writ, orthodox writ, or anything of that nature.

First, God is our Father. Not our all obeying servant. Second, Prayer is not ask God for things time, it’s conversation time. Would you go up to someone you know and just always ask them for stuff? No, now the relationship with God, there is a time to ask him for things you need, or want. Yet, you still need to pray for God, for his Kingdom to rule, for his forgiveness, for lively hood, for him to lead you, and other stuff like prayer, etc.[/quote]

You would be surprised at how extensively some of the people posting here have studied “holy writ”, as former believers or otherwise.

We’re not talking about praying to your god for intangible results, like forgiveness of sins. We’re specifically addressing prayers that ask for material blessings, i.e., that have a result in the real world.

328

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Not exactly, “or medical science”? That’s not true, only YWHW. Prayer is always answered first off, no is an answer. If you want to be a three year old child, then I guess you can assume no is not an acceptable answer.
[/quote]

By that definition, every single prayer to Pookie’s Vacuum Cleaner is similarly answered.

329

[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
No, you cannot be blessed by “chance” now can you. You cannot quantify prayer…

Dude, you’re seriously not getting it.

We’re not talking about being blessed by “chance”. Chance, in statistical jargon, refers to outcomes due to variables other than what is being specifically addressed in the study. It’s also referred to as “statistical noise” (see the reference I provided earlier).

The point is that a certain number of positive outcomes are expected to occur due to completely natural causes (for example, spontanteous remission of cancer).

In order to demonstrate a supernatural effect, you have to show that more positive outcomes occur than could be explained solely by the above.

Claims that people experience supernatural “blessings” in the material world can be measured, and compared to the normal, mundane incidence of such outcomes. Unfortunately, in studies where this has been investigated, there is zero evidence for any difference. Regardless of claims of supernatural intervention, the number of positive outcomes remains what would be expected through purely natural causes.[/quote]

You killing me with this “study” bullshit. Out comes are what they are for a variety of reasons. Does prayer work, sure. The results aren’t always going to be some epic miracle. If you wanted do an actual study, you would at least have some controls, which the study you reference has none to speak of. You would need a group prayed for and a group that is not prayed for, at all by anybody. That is not the case here.
Second, you would have to dictate amount or prayer said, and what is prayed for vs. just whether or not prayers were said.
This “study” has a distinct absence of all this and almost everybody was likely prayed for.
Now, again, God is not some vending machine where you put in a prayer and get a cola. I am not sure God takes to kindly to being tested like that, first. Second, he isn’t going to purposefully exclude people from his grace just because you want him to, to make some “study” statistically significant.
Ask the question a different way again, I am going to give you the same answer, again.

330

You keep vacillating between claiming that your god actually blesses you in material ways when you pray, and claiming that your god isn’t a vending machine, and is going to bless people the same way regardless of whether or not they pray.

Which is it?

331

[quote]forlife wrote:
You keep vacillating between claiming that your god actually blesses you in material ways when you pray, and claiming that your god isn’t a vending machine, and is going to bless people the same way regardless of whether or not they pray.

Which is it?[/quote]

That’s not what I said.
He does bless in material ways as well as non-martial ways as a result of prayer. Now, now it’s not possible to say once a result has occurred, to say had one not prayed the result would have been different, so many times it is impossible to quantify. Only in the case of miracles does is something study-able. Then you can examine the case and analyze if something truly out of the ordinary occurred or if something else explains the result just as well.
Claims of miraculous recover is not taken lightly by anybody, especially the church. They have a entire department whose job it is to blow holes in the claims of miraculous recoveries. They don’t just take someones word for it, neither do I, or most people. Now, it just so happens that there are many claims that are legit and they are a matter of public record so feel free to look them up.

This whole notion you keep coming up with that I said that “…your god isn’t a vending machine, and is going to bless people the same way regardless of whether or not they pray.” I don’t know how else to put it to you. Either your reading comprehension is seriously compromised or you just refuse to listen. All I said is that God is not going to purposefully with hold his grace from people because you want to do some kind of “study”. That’s it, there isn’t more to it.
Do non-praying people get graces, sure, but those folks can get many more if they chose to have a relationship with God. ← This is not something you can prove with a study. It’s just not possible. This is personal experience. This is not the same as saying you get the same whether or not you pray. If you don’t want him around, he won’t be.

332

Does it not make you a little suspicious that your belief system is, by definition, unconfirmable? You’ve set up the perfect crime for yourself.

Think about it.

You can claim whatever you want about your god, and how your life is blessed in material ways due to your faith and prayers.

However, the moment anyone actually attempts to assess the truthfulness of those claims, you respond that your god refuses to be measured in such a way.

Thus, it is impossible to actually confirm any of your claims.

Given that your claims literally cannot be substantiated, what differentiates them from any fairy tale that someone might concoct?

333

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
usctrojansfan wrote:
Here is what many believe…

When someone Prays, takes a pill or a Placebo for that matter, they all have one thing in common. They surrender. They let go. Majority if not ALL human beings are so emotionally attached through addiction, comfort, and other subconscience messages, they cannot do this alone. It’s nearly impossible for them and we haven’t been taught to. This takes practise which is another topic.

Think about what your body or even this Earth can do all on it’s own. If you want to believe in an indvidual God or a unified God, it’s up to you. For the sake of this post, I don’t give a fuck. Something or for some people, someone is keeping you alive. It’s keeping the Earth alive. Your body is pumping blood in and out of your heart, it’s digesting your food and it’s regulating your hormones every single day all at the same time just for you and not mention, nature and the solar system.

When someone surrenders their personality using Prayer, a pill or Placebo, they let go of themselves and they let go of the situation to let this same God or Intelligence take over. The VERY SAME shit that keeps you alive on a daily basic. THIS VERY SAME SHIT that grew you when you were in the fetus starting out as two cells. Your doctor did not do this for you.

Thats my take on why Prayer works and doesn’t work. It’s about surrender. There are so many variables to argue this I know but it’s just one post.

So what you’re saying is that in order for prayer to be effective, one must consciously submit oneself to a higher power, be it God or medical science. Put another way, prayer, and getting an answer to one’s prayers, is all about submission.

Anybody know how to say the word “submission” in Arabic?
[/quote]

sniggers

334

[quote]pat wrote:
forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
No, you cannot be blessed by “chance” now can you. You cannot quantify prayer…

Dude, you’re seriously not getting it.

We’re not talking about being blessed by “chance”. Chance, in statistical jargon, refers to outcomes due to variables other than what is being specifically addressed in the study. It’s also referred to as “statistical noise” (see the reference I provided earlier).

The point is that a certain number of positive outcomes are expected to occur due to completely natural causes (for example, spontanteous remission of cancer).

In order to demonstrate a supernatural effect, you have to show that more positive outcomes occur than could be explained solely by the above.

Claims that people experience supernatural “blessings” in the material world can be measured, and compared to the normal, mundane incidence of such outcomes. Unfortunately, in studies where this has been investigated, there is zero evidence for any difference. Regardless of claims of supernatural intervention, the number of positive outcomes remains what would be expected through purely natural causes.

You killing me with this “study” bullshit. Out comes are what they are for a variety of reasons. Does prayer work, sure. The results aren’t always going to be some epic miracle. If you wanted do an actual study, you would at least have some controls, which the study you reference has none to speak of. You would need a group prayed for and a group that is not prayed for, at all by anybody. That is not the case here.
Second, you would have to dictate amount or prayer said, and what is prayed for vs. just whether or not prayers were said.
This “study” has a distinct absence of all this and almost everybody was likely prayed for.
Now, again, God is not some vending machine where you put in a prayer and get a cola. I am not sure God takes to kindly to being tested like that, first. Second, he isn’t going to purposefully exclude people from his grace just because you want him to, to make some “study” statistically significant.
Ask the question a different way again, I am going to give you the same answer, again.
[/quote]

The study referenced had double blind control groups so not sure what you are reading.

335

[quote]forlife wrote:
Does it not make you a little suspicious that your belief system is, by definition, unconfirmable? You’ve set up the perfect crime for yourself.

Think about it.

You can claim whatever you want about your god, and how your life is blessed in material ways due to your faith and prayers.

However, the moment anyone actually attempts to assess the truthfulness of those claims, you respond that your god refuses to be measured in such a way.

Thus, it is impossible to actually confirm any of your claims.

Given that your claims literally cannot be substantiated, what differentiates them from any fairy tale that someone might concoct?[/quote]

No, neither is yours. You cannot prove that the things you believe are correct. You cannot prove that the way you think the universe/ world works is even remotely correct.
You couldn’t even give me a half decent proof of your own existence, much less anything else.

Now, Pookie was apparently going to tell us what reality is and what and how things actually work before he dropped out… I was looking forward to it.

Truth be told, all we have is faith. If you cannot know it for certain then you are taking it on faith that things are the way you think they are.

336

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
No, you cannot be blessed by “chance” now can you. You cannot quantify prayer…

Dude, you’re seriously not getting it.

We’re not talking about being blessed by “chance”. Chance, in statistical jargon, refers to outcomes due to variables other than what is being specifically addressed in the study. It’s also referred to as “statistical noise” (see the reference I provided earlier).

The point is that a certain number of positive outcomes are expected to occur due to completely natural causes (for example, spontanteous remission of cancer).

In order to demonstrate a supernatural effect, you have to show that more positive outcomes occur than could be explained solely by the above.

Claims that people experience supernatural “blessings” in the material world can be measured, and compared to the normal, mundane incidence of such outcomes. Unfortunately, in studies where this has been investigated, there is zero evidence for any difference. Regardless of claims of supernatural intervention, the number of positive outcomes remains what would be expected through purely natural causes.

You killing me with this “study” bullshit. Out comes are what they are for a variety of reasons. Does prayer work, sure. The results aren’t always going to be some epic miracle. If you wanted do an actual study, you would at least have some controls, which the study you reference has none to speak of. You would need a group prayed for and a group that is not prayed for, at all by anybody. That is not the case here.
Second, you would have to dictate amount or prayer said, and what is prayed for vs. just whether or not prayers were said.
This “study” has a distinct absence of all this and almost everybody was likely prayed for.
Now, again, God is not some vending machine where you put in a prayer and get a cola. I am not sure God takes to kindly to being tested like that, first. Second, he isn’t going to purposefully exclude people from his grace just because you want him to, to make some “study” statistically significant.
Ask the question a different way again, I am going to give you the same answer, again.

The study referenced had double blind control groups so not sure what you are reading.[/quote]

That point is moot in that they did not put in a control to where the only people praying were the selected groups. That’s kind of an important factor. If you are trying to analyze the effects of prayer, you would have to eliminate all instances of prayer other than the what the experiment has control over. That is the most important control there, and they let it flop in the wind. If everybody was prayed for in some way, how can you tell whose prayer did what to whom? I hope you haven’t been in a hospital lately, but if you have, you know there is a whole lot of praying going on in a hospital. If you don’t know who is prayed for by whom or not, you basically have nothing.

337

[quote]forlife wrote:
Does it not make you a little suspicious that your belief system is, by definition, unconfirmable? You’ve set up the perfect crime for yourself.

Think about it.

You can claim whatever you want about your god, and how your life is blessed in material ways due to your faith and prayers.

However, the moment anyone actually attempts to assess the truthfulness of those claims, you respond that your god refuses to be measured in such a way.

Thus, it is impossible to actually confirm any of your claims.

Given that your claims literally cannot be substantiated, what differentiates them from any fairy tale that someone might concoct?[/quote]

I have one question, how is our faith uncomfirmable? Which is not a word by the way, but I get your gist. You can very well see if you look at the earth that there has to be some creator.

338

[quote]forlife wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Not exactly, “or medical science”? That’s not true, only YWHW. Prayer is always answered first off, no is an answer. If you want to be a three year old child, then I guess you can assume no is not an acceptable answer.

By that definition, every single prayer to Pookie’s Vacuum Cleaner is similarly answered.[/quote]

A Vacuum Cleaner can not say Yes, or create man. Man created the Vacuum Cleaner, so how can it be God, that I speak of.

339

[quote]forlife wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
I’m wondering how many have you actually studied holy writ, orthodox writ, or anything of that nature.

First, God is our Father. Not our all obeying servant. Second, Prayer is not ask God for things time, it’s conversation time. Would you go up to someone you know and just always ask them for stuff? No, now the relationship with God, there is a time to ask him for things you need, or want. Yet, you still need to pray for God, for his Kingdom to rule, for his forgiveness, for lively hood, for him to lead you, and other stuff like prayer, etc.

You would be surprised at how extensively some of the people posting here have studied “holy writ”, as former believers or otherwise.

We’re not talking about praying to your god for intangible results, like forgiveness of sins. We’re specifically addressing prayers that ask for material blessings, i.e., that have a result in the real world.[/quote]

There is plenty of examples. Yet, once again I say, no is an answer. And the OP is lucky he can get a job at all. He should stop and be grateful. As well stop being greedy. He needs to be more humble. It has nothing to do with Him being sinful necessarily, but God is trying to have a closer relationship with the OP. He needs to realise this, and as well accept that relationship.

340

[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
No, you cannot be blessed by “chance” now can you. You cannot quantify prayer…

Dude, you’re seriously not getting it.

We’re not talking about being blessed by “chance”. Chance, in statistical jargon, refers to outcomes due to variables other than what is being specifically addressed in the study. It’s also referred to as “statistical noise” (see the reference I provided earlier).

The point is that a certain number of positive outcomes are expected to occur due to completely natural causes (for example, spontanteous remission of cancer).

In order to demonstrate a supernatural effect, you have to show that more positive outcomes occur than could be explained solely by the above.

Claims that people experience supernatural “blessings” in the material world can be measured, and compared to the normal, mundane incidence of such outcomes. Unfortunately, in studies where this has been investigated, there is zero evidence for any difference. Regardless of claims of supernatural intervention, the number of positive outcomes remains what would be expected through purely natural causes.[/quote]

I’ll have to say, impressive argument. To bad it is slightly unaligned with Scripture. And that the other arguments against a Creator are completely illogical.

With your argument you say that, by man-made standards, God does not exist. That is not really how “experiments” are supposed to work. Plus this psychoanalysis stuff is considered modernism, and most of it has no roots. It has been in use for one generation, it is a fad, another attempt (a poor one) at proving God, or prayer does not exist. Just like Marxism, and all the schisms that are being called proof, that are no more than modernistic fads.

341

[quote]pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
No, you cannot be blessed by “chance” now can you. You cannot quantify prayer…

Dude, you’re seriously not getting it.

We’re not talking about being blessed by “chance”. Chance, in statistical jargon, refers to outcomes due to variables other than what is being specifically addressed in the study. It’s also referred to as “statistical noise” (see the reference I provided earlier).

The point is that a certain number of positive outcomes are expected to occur due to completely natural causes (for example, spontanteous remission of cancer).

In order to demonstrate a supernatural effect, you have to show that more positive outcomes occur than could be explained solely by the above.

Claims that people experience supernatural “blessings” in the material world can be measured, and compared to the normal, mundane incidence of such outcomes. Unfortunately, in studies where this has been investigated, there is zero evidence for any difference. Regardless of claims of supernatural intervention, the number of positive outcomes remains what would be expected through purely natural causes.

You killing me with this “study” bullshit. Out comes are what they are for a variety of reasons. Does prayer work, sure. The results aren’t always going to be some epic miracle. If you wanted do an actual study, you would at least have some controls, which the study you reference has none to speak of. You would need a group prayed for and a group that is not prayed for, at all by anybody. That is not the case here.
Second, you would have to dictate amount or prayer said, and what is prayed for vs. just whether or not prayers were said.
This “study” has a distinct absence of all this and almost everybody was likely prayed for.
Now, again, God is not some vending machine where you put in a prayer and get a cola. I am not sure God takes to kindly to being tested like that, first. Second, he isn’t going to purposefully exclude people from his grace just because you want him to, to make some “study” statistically significant.
Ask the question a different way again, I am going to give you the same answer, again.

The study referenced had double blind control groups so not sure what you are reading.

That point is moot in that they did not put in a control to where the only people praying were the selected groups. That’s kind of an important factor. If you are trying to analyze the effects of prayer, you would have to eliminate all instances of prayer other than the what the experiment has control over. That is the most important control there, and they let it flop in the wind. If everybody was prayed for in some way, how can you tell whose prayer did what to whom? I hope you haven’t been in a hospital lately, but if you have, you know there is a whole lot of praying going on in a hospital. If you don’t know who is prayed for by whom or not, you basically have nothing.[/quote]

As I have previously stated, I agree that trying to do a scientific test on the supreme being is a bit pointless. Firstly he doesn’t exist, and secondly, if he did exist then he could influence the outcome either to make it appear that he exists or that he doesn’t therefore any results and conclusions are questionable.