Don’t get me wrong, I am a fan of doing exactly the kind of thing you just did. I only wonder about what it means for the rest of your program. Rest periods decrease, right? And weight goes up?
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Weight doesn’t go up. Weight isn’t supposed to go up, but as someone who’s still figuring out where my threshold is, I wanted to feel the brutality of the workout.
For the first 3 sets, I actually forgot I was supposed to drop to 3 minutes today, so I took the full 4, but once I realized it was noticeably more miserable and I stuck to it til the end. So in 2 weeks I have 10x10 squats with 2 minutes rest, and I am already DREADING it.
The 10x10’s are supposed to be hard, but manageable with 4 minutes rest, then as the weeks go on you halve your rest time and begin learning what true failure is and how to approach it.
@T3hPwnisher being that I made it through - albeit barely - does this seem, in your opinion (not asking you to represent Jon’s, genuinely interested in yours), like it was something worth doing? Or was it a total fuckup, haha. Honestly, while I was doing my first set of 135 it just didn’t feel like…anything, so I cut it at 5, turned it into a warmup, and dove in. I didn’t do that in 5/3/1 deliberately, but Jim seems way more adamant about staying away from failure than Jon, who wants you to push through it.
I think you made the right call. The workouts need to push you hard. 3 minutes should be NOT enough time to recover. When you wrote earlier you didn’t need the full 4 to recover on anything, that was most likely a sign things were too light. It sounds like you got it dialed in right.
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Hell yeah!
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I foolishly tried 5 or 6 weeks of German Volume Training about 8 years ago, and I think the last week had me doing 10 sets of 80 kilo squats with 1 minute rest. The whole thing was built up around 10x10 sets with one minute rest period. I had something close to an actual nervous breakdown by the end, and I think that was what stopped me from finishing the last week.
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Yeah. Thanks. I know it’s the ‘beginner’ program, but being shy about finding my limits defeats the purpose of the entire progression from beginner to advanced. I’m definitely going to do the beginner program again before I move to intermediate, though.
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Yeah, it’s good to think of it as beginner to Deep Water rather than just plain beginner. That you are afraid of next week is a good sign, haha.
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135 sounded too easy but I wouldn’t want any part of 10x10 with 185. I’m sure it was the right call for you and you’ll finish strong.
I prefer programs that provide at least a little enjoyment. I know some people don’t like training and see it as a means to an end (getting bigger or stronger). They prefer to push hard and suffer.
But I actually enjoy my training time and it provides some positive things for my mental health. If I loathe my training then I won’t stick to it and it has a compounding effect - no training, low energy, no successes (reaching goals), and on and on.
It’s important to find your balance between effort/suffering and enjoyment. It can’t always be arm day but you also don’t have to experience constant dread.
I’m sure the neurotypes explain it much better.
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pushing hard and suffering is part of the enjoyment for me. I like to “fondly complain” about hard training. I’ll say something like “I can’t believe I have 8 more sets of squats” but am secretly looking forward to squatting
This has all been a cool experiment for me, and it confirms what I’ve thought for some time.
Submax training with slow progression works.
High intensity, low-volume training with progressive overload works.
Higher volume training works.
Metabolic conditioning programs work.
As long as a knowledgeable person is writing it, if you follow it as closely as possible, you should get results.
I feel you about enjoying training. I really did like the low volume days. Especially the leg days - deadlifts, leg press, leg extension, leg curls, all for 2 sets, done and out of the gym. Part of me misses that enjoyment. The other part of me is curious. I discover a little bit more about myself every time I step outside of my comfort zone and go for the goal, and that curious part wants to see how far I can go.
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“easy” sessions are the ones I’m personally most likely to gloss over out of sheer boredom (that or I’d turn the reps into a crossfit style workout for “efficiency”)
guilty as charged 
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You can get results not following a program, but once you deliberately decide to not follow it (not out of necessity, out of choice), you lose the ability to comment on it’s effectiveness.
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This was probably my biggest issue with DW writing. It would be perceived way better if it were written as “Intro Deep Water” or “Phase 1”. People see beginner and get in their heads, thinking it’s made for beginners or easy.
If you’re not pissed off or terrified you have 7 sets left on the 3 minute rest days, you’ve started too light.
This is my plan as well. Possibility even 3 beginner cycles before moving on.
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Deep Water: Beginner Program Week 3, Day 1
Deadlift
185 3x10
Squat
185 10x10
Lunges
65 3x10 ow
Back extensions and sit-ups 3x20 each no rest
Pretty much outlined it all already. Got to set 5, felt a deep despair in the pit of my stomach and a serious doubt that I could finish it. Got to set 7, felt miserable and had a misgrooved grindy rep as my last rep. Set 8 was miserable but got through it. Set 9, for some reason, I got slightly delirious. Set 10 was triumphant as fuck, though. Straight up had 0 more reps in me, I think.
Lunges were retarded. Whatever mindfulness I had about lateral knee movement during them went out the window.
Sit-ups went well until the last set where I cramped up again, presumably from the extra core work during squats. Was totally not expecting it after starting to conquer them last week. It’s as if I’ll never learn that this program is designed to keep punching you in the face just when you think you can go sit in your corner for a few and relax.
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To paraphrase @T3hPwnisher when he outlined the Beefcake/BtM/Deep Water gauntlet: as long as you don’t fuck it up.
I think that the most important thing to take away from that model for most individuals is to accept whatever propensity one, as the trainee, has and find training that fits that “gear”. While some people, like @flappinit, are able to get out of their own way and put in good quality work as written others will find whatever excuse they can do to what they want which might inhibit the rest of what they’re doing.
And that’s the value neurotyping has for me when thinking about training. If one cannot help themselves without exposing themselves to high intensity in the absolute term, either volume or frequency should reflect that. And vice versa of course.
I think this is true for other sports practice too. I’d say some of the climbers I climb with do a lot of submax work often, some can climb for 45 minutes before frying out completely but can return relatively quickly while others have a three hour monster volume session and are sore for the better half of a week.
Just three things teeter-tottering back and forth. If one finds out what their natural tendency is and accepts that then they can probably be successful.
The problems arise when someone like the “will burn out after 45 minutes” sees someone else better than them do the three hour sessions, assume that’s the recipe for success and then go climb for three hours without dialing back on how hard they push themselves.
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If neurotypes were real, I’d be a 2A. I.e. huge training ADD, need constant variety, a bunch of other things. Fortunately, I don’t believe in neurotyping anymore, at all, since I saw how many times I’ve seen CT do a metaphorical triple backflip trying to explain incomprehensible results from his neurotyping test. In terms of just describing me though, I do fall solidly into the characteristics he wrote out under 2A’s though, and so according to that, I shouldn’t have tried the 10K KB swing, BTM, or Deep Water - three brutal, repetitive, non-variation programs. Yet, I did, and they worked.
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Nailed it.
@flappinit, I’d say your training is process focused right now. Your goal is to pick a program with a reputation for kicking your ass and run it as written with full effort. And you’re crushing it.
My goal is to deadlift 500 lbs and look like The Rock so I train accordingly.
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