Documentary: The Disappearing Male

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Personally, I love the pussification of men. I’m about as far from being one of these metrosexuals as you’ll come across, so the women out there who like masculine men (the only ones worth fucking as far as I’m concerned) look at me as a rarer and rarer breed every year. I get more and more masculine every year without even trying simply because most of the men around me are sinking further and further into the gutter of despair and gloom.

Fuck, I hit a new PR on deadlifts the other day (485 with no straps or back brace/tampon) and when I dropped it there were about a dozen flabbergasted dudes staring at me in awe. And while a 485 lb deadlift ain’t too shabby for someone my size, it shouldn’t be considerably heavier than what 99.99% of the men in there (many of whom are considerably bigger than me) can pull off the ground.

I swear to fucking God half the guys in there are annoyed when I walk in simply because they know I’m going to head straight for the Olympic platform and start banging some serious weight around when I do cleans or deadlifts. It’s like they don’t like the noise created by the weights hitting the ground at the end of each rep or something. And like I said, a lot of these guys are bigger than me, but they aren’t stronger than me because they’re in there to lift to look better instead of get stronger. Unless you’re genetically fucked, you ain’t gonna get a lot stronger without looking better along the way anyways, but these guys don’t care. It’s all about looks for them, which is pretty much the same mindset as the little cardio bunnies up on the second story of the gym.

So I say encourage all who are bringing down the median masculinity level of men in this country. It doesn’t effect me personally, except to make me look WAY more masculine than I really am in the eyes of the only women worth fucking anyways. In fact, it doesn’t really effect anyone here in a negative way, so what’s the big deal? Elevation by degeneration is what I like to call it. I’m all for it. [/quote]

I lift to be strong, but you’re coming across as ignorant by saying that people that lift to look good aren’t strong. There’s bodybuilders in the gym I go to that can out lift me for reps, they use anabolic steroids-applaud them for the guts-, but they can out lift me for reps, probably for all out strength as well.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

The shizzle, compared to your drizzle.

With all due respect to your intelligence, you are an ignorant motherfucker that is blind to the world before his very eyes.

I shudder at the thought of how much energy is wasted maintaining that illusion.

[/quote]

Right?

This is my favourite bit

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

I think the declining rate of violence in the United States is a clear sign of an increase in masculinity,
[/quote]

The declining rate of violence in the US has to do with legalized abortion. As a direct result of Roe vs Wade, the number of children most at risk for committing crime weren’t born. So basically the people who were supposed to be committing those crimes were never there. Combine this with the fact the average age has increased due to baby boomers reaching retirement and you have a recipe for dramatic crime decrease.

[/quote]
Seriously?[/quote]

Yes

http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/DonohueLevittTheImpactOfLegalized2001.pdf[/quote]

You love your stats, don’t you, Raj? lol.

How much of a percentage do you think this played a part in the drop in crime? Has it really dropped THAT much? Serious question.

[quote]xjusticex2013x wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Shit Orion, even if you and every motherfucker on your block were loaded to the teeth with weapons you’d be powerless against a small, well-trained and well-armed group of soldiers. Throw in the odd tank or helicopter and you’re even more fucked. Add in a Predator drone or three, satellite imagery or just one obsolete fighter jet with a 1,000 lb bomb on it and you’re toast.

If you fear the gov’t that much, you may as well give yourself some sort of fighting chance and attack preemptively while you still have the element of surprise on your side. You’d better start gathering your army now and try to take over the nearest federal armory, John Brown-style, because if you don’t you are completely fucked otherwise. What the FUCK are all the AK-47s in the world going to do against one well-aimed tactical nuke?

And I’m the ignorant motherfucker? Standing armies? That’s what you’re afraid of? You’re a fucking loony 'toon pal! [/quote]

Devil’s advocate/grasping at straws/digression: what would you say the odds are that the majority of the American military would go along with violently quelling a domestic rebellion? It would seem to me if it really was a dire cause, then there may be falling out among the troops who don’t want to kill American citizens.

Meh, I don’t know; just a thought really.

Also, what the heck are you doing in Malaysia? haha[/quote]

I don’t know what the odds are and I don’t care. All it would take is one Air Force pilot with respect for the chain of command to wipe me and the entire city I live in right off the map. One high-ranking officer with a hard-on, a la Sterling Hayden in Dr. Strangelove, would be enough to vaporize me, Orion and every Rambo-wannabe in this country. Fuck, if the shit hit the fan I’d just get out my lawn chair, climb up onto my roof with some sunblock and a good pair of sunglasses, pour myself my first stiff drink in years and enjoy my last remaining time in this world.

If we’re going to entertain these sorts of theoreticals, then let’s stretch them out a little bit. If the President of the United States, no matter who it is at the time, decided that today was the day they just HAD to kill a lot of Americans or whatever, he’s not going to fuck around with a potentially-mutinous army. He’ll just press the big red button from the safety of his underground bunker beneath Pennsylvania Avenue and vaporize everyone, just like Dr. Strangelove. I mean, that’s what this whole scenario is like, really. Orion is nothing more than a real, living version of General Buck Turgidson, played by George C. Scott.

edit: I’m in Malaysia doing some…shopping.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]xjusticex2013x wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Shit Orion, even if you and every motherfucker on your block were loaded to the teeth with weapons you’d be powerless against a small, well-trained and well-armed group of soldiers. Throw in the odd tank or helicopter and you’re even more fucked. Add in a Predator drone or three, satellite imagery or just one obsolete fighter jet with a 1,000 lb bomb on it and you’re toast.

If you fear the gov’t that much, you may as well give yourself some sort of fighting chance and attack preemptively while you still have the element of surprise on your side. You’d better start gathering your army now and try to take over the nearest federal armory, John Brown-style, because if you don’t you are completely fucked otherwise. What the FUCK are all the AK-47s in the world going to do against one well-aimed tactical nuke?

And I’m the ignorant motherfucker? Standing armies? That’s what you’re afraid of? You’re a fucking loony 'toon pal! [/quote]

Devil’s advocate/grasping at straws/digression: what would you say the odds are that the majority of the American military would go along with violently quelling a domestic rebellion? It would seem to me if it really was a dire cause, then there may be falling out among the troops who don’t want to kill American citizens.

Meh, I don’t know; just a thought really.

Also, what the heck are you doing in Malaysia? haha[/quote]

I don’t know what the odds are and I don’t care. All it would take is one Air Force pilot with respect for the chain of command to wipe me and the entire city I live in right off the map. One high-ranking officer with a hard-on, a la Sterling Hayden in Dr. Strangelove, would be enough to vaporize me, Orion and every Rambo-wannabe in this country. Fuck, if the shit hit the fan I’d just get out my lawn chair, climb up onto my roof with some sunblock and a good pair of sunglasses, pour myself my first stiff drink in years and enjoy my last remaining time in this world.

If we’re going to entertain these sorts of theoreticals, then let’s stretch them out a little bit. If the President of the United States, no matter who it is at the time, decided that today was the day they just HAD to kill a lot of Americans or whatever, he’s not going to fuck around with a potentially-mutinous army. He’ll just press the big red button from the safety of his underground bunker beneath Pennsylvania Avenue and vaporize everyone, just like Dr. Strangelove. I mean, that’s what this whole scenario is like, really. Orion is nothing more than a real, living version of General Buck Turgidson, played by George C. Scott. [/quote]

The government would be far more likely to want total control over its populace than to just obliterate it entirely.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
You are drawing connections between social interaction and masculinity that aren’t there.[/quote]

There sure is a connection.

Being an effective communicator is a highly masculine trait.

Being able to read people’s body language, pickup on emotions in people’s voices and also delivering an effective message to others are skills no longer being developed like they use to be.

Boys today now prefer communicating with devices than humans and its lead to an overall decline in social skills and this feminization [/quote]

Much of what I’ve read of the ways video games damage men focuses on how they extend adolescence and prevent players from tackling real-world responsibilities. The time that could be spent deepening relationships, furthering one’s career and education, or simply engaging in a project of self improvement is instead diverted into a fantasy world where any type of momentum is applicable only within the game. So many video games represent insular pursuits that rarely enhance other aspects of a man’s life, and further teaches the mind to find satisfaction in imaginary accomplishments.

What you wrote is an interesting take; while there is a lot of communication that can go on during game play, there is a significant lack of personal interaction. Even if the people are in the same room. However, I’m not sure how the decline in social skills leads to feminization. I am more inclined to think it leads to poorly socialized individuals.

[quote]darkhorse1-1 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Personally, I love the pussification of men. I’m about as far from being one of these metrosexuals as you’ll come across, so the women out there who like masculine men (the only ones worth fucking as far as I’m concerned) look at me as a rarer and rarer breed every year. I get more and more masculine every year without even trying simply because most of the men around me are sinking further and further into the gutter of despair and gloom.

Fuck, I hit a new PR on deadlifts the other day (485 with no straps or back brace/tampon) and when I dropped it there were about a dozen flabbergasted dudes staring at me in awe. And while a 485 lb deadlift ain’t too shabby for someone my size, it shouldn’t be considerably heavier than what 99.99% of the men in there (many of whom are considerably bigger than me) can pull off the ground.

I swear to fucking God half the guys in there are annoyed when I walk in simply because they know I’m going to head straight for the Olympic platform and start banging some serious weight around when I do cleans or deadlifts. It’s like they don’t like the noise created by the weights hitting the ground at the end of each rep or something. And like I said, a lot of these guys are bigger than me, but they aren’t stronger than me because they’re in there to lift to look better instead of get stronger. Unless you’re genetically fucked, you ain’t gonna get a lot stronger without looking better along the way anyways, but these guys don’t care. It’s all about looks for them, which is pretty much the same mindset as the little cardio bunnies up on the second story of the gym.

So I say encourage all who are bringing down the median masculinity level of men in this country. It doesn’t effect me personally, except to make me look WAY more masculine than I really am in the eyes of the only women worth fucking anyways. In fact, it doesn’t really effect anyone here in a negative way, so what’s the big deal? Elevation by degeneration is what I like to call it. I’m all for it. [/quote]

I lift to be strong, but you’re coming across as ignorant by saying that people that lift to look good aren’t strong. There’s bodybuilders in the gym I go to that can out lift me for reps, they use anabolic steroids-applaud them for the guts-, but they can out lift me for reps, probably for all out strength as well.
[/quote]

I was speaking in specifics, not in generalities. I mean the people in the particular gym I work out at. There’s two sections to the free-weight area where I lift. One section has the squat racks, the Olympic platforms, the glute/ham raise station, medicine balls, pull-up bars, dip stations and boxes.

The other half has all the benches, preacher curl stations and dumbbells. The two areas remain pretty segregated for the most part. I rarely EVER see the people who are regulars in the curling section over in the squat rack section, except to use the glute/ham raise station for sit-ups. Every once in a blue moon I’ll see someone from the curl section in the squat rack and it’s always the same: squatting on the balls of their feet, going a third of the way down, legs shaking, knees buckling inward. These guys could all curl more than I can but couldn’t do a single proper squat to save their lives. I’m not saying this is how it is at all gyms, only mine. Believe me, I’m well aware that bodybuilders are still strong as fuck for the most part.

I should also mention that I have a membership to the local college’s gym since it’s literally a 5-minute walk from my house and the next closest is on the other side of town and, last time I went there anyways, had no Olympic platforms and a policy against chalk. So there’s usually me, some of the throwers on the track team, the bigger guys on the rugby team and this one really smoking hot chick who’s a sprinter on the track team over in the squat rack area and then a bunch of brotards in the other section.

it’s the sort of gym where I can typically count on one hand how many people I see per month front squatting to proper depth. I have seen a grand total of one person in my entire time at that gym squat four plates to a legit parallel position. So this isn’t a typical gym by any means.

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]xjusticex2013x wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Shit Orion, even if you and every motherfucker on your block were loaded to the teeth with weapons you’d be powerless against a small, well-trained and well-armed group of soldiers. Throw in the odd tank or helicopter and you’re even more fucked. Add in a Predator drone or three, satellite imagery or just one obsolete fighter jet with a 1,000 lb bomb on it and you’re toast.

If you fear the gov’t that much, you may as well give yourself some sort of fighting chance and attack preemptively while you still have the element of surprise on your side. You’d better start gathering your army now and try to take over the nearest federal armory, John Brown-style, because if you don’t you are completely fucked otherwise. What the FUCK are all the AK-47s in the world going to do against one well-aimed tactical nuke?

And I’m the ignorant motherfucker? Standing armies? That’s what you’re afraid of? You’re a fucking loony 'toon pal! [/quote]

Devil’s advocate/grasping at straws/digression: what would you say the odds are that the majority of the American military would go along with violently quelling a domestic rebellion? It would seem to me if it really was a dire cause, then there may be falling out among the troops who don’t want to kill American citizens.

Meh, I don’t know; just a thought really.

Also, what the heck are you doing in Malaysia? haha[/quote]

I don’t know what the odds are and I don’t care. All it would take is one Air Force pilot with respect for the chain of command to wipe me and the entire city I live in right off the map. One high-ranking officer with a hard-on, a la Sterling Hayden in Dr. Strangelove, would be enough to vaporize me, Orion and every Rambo-wannabe in this country. Fuck, if the shit hit the fan I’d just get out my lawn chair, climb up onto my roof with some sunblock and a good pair of sunglasses, pour myself my first stiff drink in years and enjoy my last remaining time in this world.

If we’re going to entertain these sorts of theoreticals, then let’s stretch them out a little bit. If the President of the United States, no matter who it is at the time, decided that today was the day they just HAD to kill a lot of Americans or whatever, he’s not going to fuck around with a potentially-mutinous army. He’ll just press the big red button from the safety of his underground bunker beneath Pennsylvania Avenue and vaporize everyone, just like Dr. Strangelove. I mean, that’s what this whole scenario is like, really. Orion is nothing more than a real, living version of General Buck Turgidson, played by George C. Scott. [/quote]

The government would be far more likely to want total control over its populace than to just obliterate it entirely. [/quote]

Possibly. What is also possible is that people like Orion are on the side of the gov’t that wants to subjugate the populace. If it were a conservative gov’t that wanted to wipe out or control all the liberals in the country I can pretty much guarantee he’s be goose-stepping along with them, not fighting against it.

And the odds of this actually happening in this country are practically non-existent and I’m sorry, but even if they were decent, I just don’t live my life like that. I’m too busy worrying about the daily minutiae in my own life to start planning for the takeover of this country that people like Orion think is right around the corner. I don’t let those sorts of fears run my life or influence the decisions I make from day to day. That’s why I enjoy life, I suppose. Normally, I would say that the old “ignorance is bliss” phrase is a bunch of bullshit, but in this case call me blissfully unaware.

Besides, even if the gov’t really did plan on subjugating all of us, I have to think it would probably be much more insidious and inconspicuous than simply rolling in with the big Abrams tanks and the F-22s or whatever the hell Orion thinks his fucking AR-15 is going to protect him from. It might be something that no amount of guns on our part would be useful against.

And even if that wasn’t the case, even if Orion’s doomsday scenario or whatever he’s planning for really was the case, why the fuck is he sitting here on the Internet lecturing us about it? He’d better get started with his coup d’ etat now because when the shit hits the fan he’s going to be up against a fucking Leviathan. If he really is so serious about this alleged threat why sit around and wait for it? Fuck, I consider him a FAR larger threat to my safety than the federal gov’t is.

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
But your above posts in this thread do smell of beta-bitch insecurity.[/quote]

LOL. What does that even mean?[/quote]

You obviously play video games, which is why you went straight into defensive mode about my video games post, even taking it out of the context I intended.

The actual content of video games are not a problem but the behaviour of choosing to allocate time to that activity may be taking away from social interaction, which is a partial reason for the described deprecation of masculinity in men.[/quote]

I don’t play video games at all and haven’t owned any game system since the original Nintendo came out, which I grew bored of after about two years, so I’m hardly an expert on this matter. That being said, I have friends who play those fucking first-person shooter games until the early hours of the morning every goddamned weekend. I’m pretty sure that they play with each other all the time, as in they are all playing together in the same room.

Sure, they play with people from all over the planet and they do frequently also play by themselves, but the point is that they hardly play these things in solitary confinement on a regular basis. I’m not sure if three or four guys sitting in a room taking turns with the bong and the video controllers constitutes social interaction, but whatever.

Another thing to consider is that two centuries ago, when most people in this thread would probably argue that men were men and not “beta-bitches” as you have so eloquently stated, people didn’t interact with each other all that often either. They might have interacted with their own families, but people didn’t live in the same sort of clustered society that we live in today. Going to the store was a far less frequent occurrence, if they went at all. Many people lived in places where they rarely interacted with anyone outside their own families except on Sundays at church.

I think that video games definitely are a factor in people being different today than they were back then, but I don’t think those differences extend to the de-masculinization of men. I think the effect that video games is having is probably more in terms of our attention spans and what we need in order to be stimulated, sort of like the porn addiction thing. Are we playing more video games because we need more stimulus, or do we need more stimulus because we play video games more often? I don’t know, but I don’t think you know either.

The more pertinent question here as someone else mentioned, which has been covered ad nauseum and is ENTIRELY subjective, is what exactly makes a man a masculine man. Personally, I don’t really think it has anything to do with anything other than our abilities to take care of our families. I think the declining rate of violence in the United States is a clear sign of an increase in masculinity, but others might argue differently if they think that masculinity entails violence. I don’t think so at all, because violence is almost always in the form of a crime, and it is hard to take care of your family if you are in jail as a violent criminal.

However, that would also mean that being a masculine man would mean that you would have to have a family to take care of in the first place. Many men don’t have children or a wife and their parents aren’t old or infirm enough to need someone else taking care of them. I have no children and neither my parents nor anyone else in my family needs me to care for them. So in that sense, masculinity may simply mean the ability to take care of oneself instead, which isn’t a masculine trait at all. Women are just as capable of doing that as I or any other man is, and I don’t think it’s fair to women to say that they are masculine simply because they can take care of their own shit.

So the reality is that the most all-encompassing definition of what it means to be masculine is more along the lines of what it means to be a good, responsible person in general, regardless of gender or sex. All that other bullshit like “masculine men shoot guns” or “masculine men are physically strong” or “masculine men don’t show emotions” or whatever is a bunch of Hollywood superficiality that has no bearing in reality whatsoever. In my mind, “masculine” men are simply good people, period. So even the most feminine of men can still be more masculine than someone who most people would point to as being masculine. It has nothing to do with sexuality or hobbies or anything else material like that. It’s a very ethereal quality that isn’t absolute by any means.[/quote]

This is a great, well thought out post. I am baffled the same person who wrote this claims a lion would beat a polar bear. >:([/quote]

Yep, and as in the polar bear discussion I’m gonna disagree, well thought out or not.

I believe that the capacity to do violence, when it is appropriate and/or necessary is very close to the core of the male essence. A man who is unwilling or unable to do violence in the protection of that which he holds dear is, in my estimation, inherently less masculine. He may be a better person but he IS less of a man.

The male has an imperative to protect, defend and to exercise authority. Force is at the root of that, force of personality, force of intellect and, in extremity, force of arms and physical force in general. It is in the appropriateness of how that force is employed that we see the difference between a decent man and a criminal (or a tyrant). I believe that the correct use of force is one of the most misunderstood and unjustly maligned concepts in our modern society. Almost all the great achievements in human history have required some application of force to complete and preserve or have been born as a direct result of conflict. Now we see it as a necessary evil at best or an obsolete remnant of some less evolved era at worst. Neither could be further from the truth.

It is, in my estimation, the general moral rejection of direct force as a valid and sometimes essential and admirable response that has castrated us in spirit. It is unseemly to even SPEAK in a manner that is overly forceful for fear of appearing overly pushy or opinionated. Conflict is to be eschewed at all costs in favour of conciliation, consensus and conformity which ultimately degenerates into passivity, apathy and general malaise. We, as men, are trained to divorce ourselves from that within us which is violent, forceful. Instead of owning it, embracing it and using it rightly in our lives for the preservation and betterment of our civilization, we reject it and are only allowed to experience it vicariously as a pail, twisted shadow of its true self in the form the aforementioned video games, movies, porn etc. (which I find entertaining as hell FTR).

By extension, “masculine men don’t show emotions” is a diluted reflection of another truth of masculinity, IMO. A man must be the master of his emotions not the other way round. At times this will mean he must conceal/restrain them through sheer force of will and self discipline. It is necessary for any functioning human to be able to display his or her emotions with passion and authenticity when it is appropriate. However any guy who is ruled by his emotions and wears their heart on his sleeve because they have no choice is, IMO, a child and so by definition not a man.

Similarly, the pursuit of physical strength, prowess and vigour is an inherently masculine impulse. It is an extension of my first point about capacity for violence. Sports are ritualized combat and preparing for sport is a substitute for preparing for war. Being better at sports/a more talented athlete does not make you a better man, but the dedication and intensity with which you practice/train does. Men need to compete. They need to struggle and strive to be living in the fullness of their manhood. They must fight and win and lose and bleed and cry and shout their triumphs and bear their defeats.

So while the old cliches are superficial and distorted, most of them carry a grain of truth in my opinion. That’s why they became cliches in the first place. To abandon them all together is throwing out the baby with the bathwater and we will all be much the poorer for it. In fact I would say our way of life would be doomed.

[quote]batman730 wrote:

Yep, and as in the polar bear discussion I’m gonna disagree, well thought out or not.

I believe that the capacity to do violence, when it is appropriate and/or necessary is very close to the core of the male essence. A man who is unwilling or unable to do violence in the protection of that which he holds dear is, in my estimation, inherently less masculine. He may be a better person but he IS less of a man.

The male has an imperative to protect, defend and to exercise authority. Force is at the root of that, force of personality, force of intellect and, in extremity, force of arms and physical force in general. It is in the appropriateness of how that force is employed that we see the difference between a decent man and a criminal (or a tyrant). I believe that the correct use of force is one of the most misunderstood and unjustly maligned concepts in our modern society. Almost all the great achievements in human history have required some application of force to complete and preserve or have been born as a direct result of conflict. Now we see it as a necessary evil at best or an obsolete remnant of some less evolved era at worst. Neither could be further from the truth.

It is, in my estimation, the general moral rejection of direct force as a valid and sometimes essential and admirable response that has castrated us in spirit. It is unseemly to even SPEAK in a manner that is overly forceful for fear of appearing overly pushy or opinionated. Conflict is to be eschewed at all costs in favour of conciliation, consensus and conformity which ultimately degenerates into passivity, apathy and general malaise. We, as men, are trained to divorce ourselves from that within us which is violent, forceful. Instead of owning it, embracing it and using it rightly in our lives for the preservation and betterment of our civilization, we reject it and are only allowed to experience it vicariously as a pail, twisted shadow of its true self in the form the aforementioned video games, movies, porn etc. (which I find entertaining as hell FTR).

By extension, “masculine men don’t show emotions” is a diluted reflection of another truth of masculinity, IMO. A man must be the master of his emotions not the other way round. At times this will mean he must conceal/restrain them through sheer force of will and self discipline. It is necessary for any functioning human to be able to display his or her emotions with passion and authenticity when it is appropriate. However any guy who is ruled by his emotions and wears their heart on his sleeve because they have no choice is, IMO, a child and so by definition not a man.

Similarly, the pursuit of physical strength, prowess and vigour is an inherently masculine impulse. It is an extension of my first point about capacity for violence. Sports are ritualized combat and preparing for sport is a substitute for preparing for war. Being better at sports/a more talented athlete does not make you a better man, but the dedication and intensity with which you practice/train does. Men need to compete. They need to struggle and strive to be living in the fullness of their manhood. They must fight and win and lose and bleed and cry and shout their triumphs and bear their defeats.

So while the old cliches are superficial and distorted, most of them carry a grain of truth in my opinion. That’s why they became cliches in the first place. To abandon them all together is throwing out the baby with the bathwater and we will all be much the poorer for it. In fact I would say our way of life would be doomed. [/quote]

Another brilliant post by The Batman.

The essence of masculinity as best expressed as I have seen.

Your posts are full of substance and essential truth.

Thank you for reminding us that the man of the flesh is nothing without the spirit of the man.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
But your above posts in this thread do smell of beta-bitch insecurity.[/quote]

LOL. What does that even mean?[/quote]

You obviously play video games, which is why you went straight into defensive mode about my video games post, even taking it out of the context I intended.

The actual content of video games are not a problem but the behaviour of choosing to allocate time to that activity may be taking away from social interaction, which is a partial reason for the described deprecation of masculinity in men.[/quote]

I don’t play video games at all and haven’t owned any game system since the original Nintendo came out, which I grew bored of after about two years, so I’m hardly an expert on this matter. That being said, I have friends who play those fucking first-person shooter games until the early hours of the morning every goddamned weekend. I’m pretty sure that they play with each other all the time, as in they are all playing together in the same room.

Sure, they play with people from all over the planet and they do frequently also play by themselves, but the point is that they hardly play these things in solitary confinement on a regular basis. I’m not sure if three or four guys sitting in a room taking turns with the bong and the video controllers constitutes social interaction, but whatever.

Another thing to consider is that two centuries ago, when most people in this thread would probably argue that men were men and not “beta-bitches” as you have so eloquently stated, people didn’t interact with each other all that often either. They might have interacted with their own families, but people didn’t live in the same sort of clustered society that we live in today. Going to the store was a far less frequent occurrence, if they went at all. Many people lived in places where they rarely interacted with anyone outside their own families except on Sundays at church.

I think that video games definitely are a factor in people being different today than they were back then, but I don’t think those differences extend to the de-masculinization of men. I think the effect that video games is having is probably more in terms of our attention spans and what we need in order to be stimulated, sort of like the porn addiction thing. Are we playing more video games because we need more stimulus, or do we need more stimulus because we play video games more often? I don’t know, but I don’t think you know either.

The more pertinent question here as someone else mentioned, which has been covered ad nauseum and is ENTIRELY subjective, is what exactly makes a man a masculine man. Personally, I don’t really think it has anything to do with anything other than our abilities to take care of our families. I think the declining rate of violence in the United States is a clear sign of an increase in masculinity, but others might argue differently if they think that masculinity entails violence. I don’t think so at all, because violence is almost always in the form of a crime, and it is hard to take care of your family if you are in jail as a violent criminal.

However, that would also mean that being a masculine man would mean that you would have to have a family to take care of in the first place. Many men don’t have children or a wife and their parents aren’t old or infirm enough to need someone else taking care of them. I have no children and neither nor anyone else in my family needs me to care for them. So in that sense, masculinity may simply mean the ability to take care of oneself instead, which isn’t a masculine trait at all. Women are just as capable of doing that as I or any other man is, and I don’t think it’s fair to women to say that they are masculine simply because they can take care of their own shit.

So the reality is that the most all-encompassing definition of what it means to be masculine is more along the lines of what it means to be a good, responsible person in general, regardless of gender or sex. All that other bullshit like “masculine men shoot guns” or “masculine men are physically strong” or “masculine men don’t show emotions” or whatever is a bunch of Hollywood superficiality that has no bearing in reality whatsoever. In my mind, “masculine” men are simply good people, period. So even the most feminine of men can still be more masculine than someone who most people would point to as being masculine. It has nothing to do with sexuality or hobbies or anything else material like that. It’s a very ethereal quality that isn’t absolute by any means.[/quote]

Damn good post. As usual.
[/quote]

This is about the time that Pushharder comes in, calls me Delbert, and then says I’m wrong. I know a lot of people here think he’s masculine, and he appears to take care of his own shit pretty well so I won’t argue that he isn’t in that respect. But I think most of the people who think he’s the definition of masculinity think so for other reasons. Personally, I think most of what he believes when he and I get into these arguments is based in fear; he’s driven by his fears, not his strengths, and then identifies his ability to recognize those fears as a strength.

Take the whole gun thing. Who the fuck needs an automatic weapon? Do we really need to protect ourselves from the enemy that, for 99.999999999%of us will never come? Of course not. I don’t fear the govt or some random intruder coming into my home. I don’t think along fear-based lines like that.

Of course, knowing my luck this is probably the one long post that he’ll actually agree with 100%, so I apologize in advance, Push, if it is.[/quote]

How ironic that you should write about masculinity and behave in the true manner of a weak and wounded female.

So you took a beating from Push in the polar bear thread and on a different thread, after having your ego stroked, you start bitching behind his back and apologizing for it in advance?

Am I the only one who sees the female behavior in this move?

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]xjusticex2013x wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Shit Orion, even if you and every motherfucker on your block were loaded to the teeth with weapons you’d be powerless against a small, well-trained and well-armed group of soldiers. Throw in the odd tank or helicopter and you’re even more fucked. Add in a Predator drone or three, satellite imagery or just one obsolete fighter jet with a 1,000 lb bomb on it and you’re toast.

If you fear the gov’t that much, you may as well give yourself some sort of fighting chance and attack preemptively while you still have the element of surprise on your side. You’d better start gathering your army now and try to take over the nearest federal armory, John Brown-style, because if you don’t you are completely fucked otherwise. What the FUCK are all the AK-47s in the world going to do against one well-aimed tactical nuke?

And I’m the ignorant motherfucker? Standing armies? That’s what you’re afraid of? You’re a fucking loony 'toon pal! [/quote]

Devil’s advocate/grasping at straws/digression: what would you say the odds are that the majority of the American military would go along with violently quelling a domestic rebellion? It would seem to me if it really was a dire cause, then there may be falling out among the troops who don’t want to kill American citizens.

Meh, I don’t know; just a thought really.

Also, what the heck are you doing in Malaysia? haha[/quote]

I don’t know what the odds are and I don’t care. All it would take is one Air Force pilot with respect for the chain of command to wipe me and the entire city I live in right off the map. One high-ranking officer with a hard-on, a la Sterling Hayden in Dr. Strangelove, would be enough to vaporize me, Orion and every Rambo-wannabe in this country. Fuck, if the shit hit the fan I’d just get out my lawn chair, climb up onto my roof with some sunblock and a good pair of sunglasses, pour myself my first stiff drink in years and enjoy my last remaining time in this world.

If we’re going to entertain these sorts of theoreticals, then let’s stretch them out a little bit. If the President of the United States, no matter who it is at the time, decided that today was the day they just HAD to kill a lot of Americans or whatever, he’s not going to fuck around with a potentially-mutinous army. He’ll just press the big red button from the safety of his underground bunker beneath Pennsylvania Avenue and vaporize everyone, just like Dr. Strangelove. I mean, that’s what this whole scenario is like, really. Orion is nothing more than a real, living version of General Buck Turgidson, played by George C. Scott. [/quote]

The government would be far more likely to want total control over its populace than to just obliterate it entirely. [/quote]

I also think that some of these fucking fearmongers in the gov’t are the ones who are gaining total control over the populace as we speak. They certainly have people like Orion under their thumb.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
One other thing, Orion. If the Big Bad Gov’t really did plan on taking over everything or doing whatever it is that you think they’re planning on doing or possibly could do that would warrant owning an arsenal of automatic weapons to defend yourself, do you think that shit is going to make a difference?

If the gov’t really wanted to do what you huddle in fear of, you’re powerless to stop it no matter what. If you were two-fisting it with AR-15s in each hand you couldn’t stop one fucking wacko rolling down the street in a lightly-armored tank, let alone the entire might of the U.S. Armed Forces. You’d be dead before you even knew there was any danger. If you’re afraid of the gov’t taking you over in that manner and you think you can do anything with guns to stop it, you’ve seen about three too many Rambo films.[/quote]

The US government cannot even hold downtown Bhagdad without massive bribes.

To anally rape them in the vast area that is the US is not even a challenge.

Its a foregone conclusion.

Plus, even if that was not feasablke, I am breatlessly awaiting you vastly superior options.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Possibly. What is also possible is that people like Orion are on the side of the gov’t that wants to subjugate the populace.wait for it? Fuck, I consider him a FAR larger threat to my safety than the federal gov’t is.[/quote]

You can blow me and the horse I rode in on and dont think for one second that your inferior BJ skills will not be noticed.

Violence.

Its your answer to everything.

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
But your above posts in this thread do smell of beta-bitch insecurity.[/quote]

LOL. What does that even mean?[/quote]

You obviously play video games, which is why you went straight into defensive mode about my video games post, even taking it out of the context I intended.

The actual content of video games are not a problem but the behaviour of choosing to allocate time to that activity may be taking away from social interaction, which is a partial reason for the described deprecation of masculinity in men.[/quote]

I don’t play video games at all and haven’t owned any game system since the original Nintendo came out, which I grew bored of after about two years, so I’m hardly an expert on this matter. That being said, I have friends who play those fucking first-person shooter games until the early hours of the morning every goddamned weekend. I’m pretty sure that they play with each other all the time, as in they are all playing together in the same room.

Sure, they play with people from all over the planet and they do frequently also play by themselves, but the point is that they hardly play these things in solitary confinement on a regular basis. I’m not sure if three or four guys sitting in a room taking turns with the bong and the video controllers constitutes social interaction, but whatever.

Another thing to consider is that two centuries ago, when most people in this thread would probably argue that men were men and not “beta-bitches” as you have so eloquently stated, people didn’t interact with each other all that often either. They might have interacted with their own families, but people didn’t live in the same sort of clustered society that we live in today. Going to the store was a far less frequent occurrence, if they went at all. Many people lived in places where they rarely interacted with anyone outside their own families except on Sundays at church.

I think that video games definitely are a factor in people being different today than they were back then, but I don’t think those differences extend to the de-masculinization of men. I think the effect that video games is having is probably more in terms of our attention spans and what we need in order to be stimulated, sort of like the porn addiction thing. Are we playing more video games because we need more stimulus, or do we need more stimulus because we play video games more often? I don’t know, but I don’t think you know either.

The more pertinent question here as someone else mentioned, which has been covered ad nauseum and is ENTIRELY subjective, is what exactly makes a man a masculine man. Personally, I don’t really think it has anything to do with anything other than our abilities to take care of our families. I think the declining rate of violence in the United States is a clear sign of an increase in masculinity, but others might argue differently if they think that masculinity entails violence. I don’t think so at all, because violence is almost always in the form of a crime, and it is hard to take care of your family if you are in jail as a violent criminal.

However, that would also mean that being a masculine man would mean that you would have to have a family to take care of in the first place. Many men don’t have children or a wife and their parents aren’t old or infirm enough to need someone else taking care of them. I have no children and neither nor anyone else in my family needs me to care for them. So in that sense, masculinity may simply mean the ability to take care of oneself instead, which isn’t a masculine trait at all. Women are just as capable of doing that as I or any other man is, and I don’t think it’s fair to women to say that they are masculine simply because they can take care of their own shit.

So the reality is that the most all-encompassing definition of what it means to be masculine is more along the lines of what it means to be a good, responsible person in general, regardless of gender or sex. All that other bullshit like “masculine men shoot guns” or “masculine men are physically strong” or “masculine men don’t show emotions” or whatever is a bunch of Hollywood superficiality that has no bearing in reality whatsoever. In my mind, “masculine” men are simply good people, period. So even the most feminine of men can still be more masculine than someone who most people would point to as being masculine. It has nothing to do with sexuality or hobbies or anything else material like that. It’s a very ethereal quality that isn’t absolute by any means.[/quote]

Damn good post. As usual.
[/quote]

This is about the time that Pushharder comes in, calls me Delbert, and then says I’m wrong. I know a lot of people here think he’s masculine, and he appears to take care of his own shit pretty well so I won’t argue that he isn’t in that respect. But I think most of the people who think he’s the definition of masculinity think so for other reasons. Personally, I think most of what he believes when he and I get into these arguments is based in fear; he’s driven by his fears, not his strengths, and then identifies his ability to recognize those fears as a strength.

Take the whole gun thing. Who the fuck needs an automatic weapon? Do we really need to protect ourselves from the enemy that, for 99.999999999%of us will never come? Of course not. I don’t fear the govt or some random intruder coming into my home. I don’t think along fear-based lines like that.

Of course, knowing my luck this is probably the one long post that he’ll actually agree with 100%, so I apologize in advance, Push, if it is.[/quote]

How ironic that you should write about masculinity and behave in the true manner of a weak and wounded female.

So you took a beating from Push in the polar bear thread and on a different thread, after having your ego stroked, you start bitching behind his back and apologizing for it in advance?

Am I the only one who sees the female behavior in this move?
[/quote]

I took a beating from Push in the polar bear thread? Hardly.

And I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment about resorting to violence to protect one’s family and loved ones. I’m talking about criminally-violent behavior, which does NOT include self-defense. I have had to resort to physical violence to protect my loved ones. If anyone here remembers an experience I, uh, experienced at a football game in Seattle several years ago that I described in detail here in a long-dormant thread they’ll know what I mean. I don’t feel it’s necessary to rehash it again because it means nothing. It happened, it’s over with, I’ve moved on and whether you know what it is or not is immaterial to my level of masculinity.

Violence for violence’s sake is a whole different ballgame, though, and it isn’t inherently masculine to be violent just for the sake of being violent. I won’t even begin to get into the whole “female behavior” thing again. I spent way too much time arguing about that subject to rehash it now. That is also why I abandoned the gun thread way back when. I simply don’t have the time nor the patience to take on an entire thread’s worth of people on the matter, which is what continuing to participate in that thread would have entailed. I made my beliefs known, you and others disagreed with them, fine. So what? Am I somehow less “manly” because I didn’t stick around to defend them from people like you, whose opinion means absolutely nothing to me anyways?

Now, you may call that chickening out or whatever, and you may even think that there is something feminine about doing so. I have confidence in my beliefs and I’m smart enough to know that your opinion has no bearing on my level of masculinity at all. The “female behavior” would be to flip out because someone disagrees with me and then jump down into the gutter with them and engage in some inane argument that never goes anywhere.

So if that makes me a feminine person, put me in a dress, slap some lipstick on my mouth and call me Suzy.

[quote]batman730 wrote:

Yep, and as in the polar bear discussion I’m gonna disagree, well thought out or not.

I believe that the capacity to do violence, when it is appropriate and/or necessary is very close to the core of the male essence. A man who is unwilling or unable to do violence in the protection of that which he holds dear is, in my estimation, inherently less masculine. He may be a better person but he IS less of a man.

The male has an imperative to protect, defend and to exercise authority. Force is at the root of that, force of personality, force of intellect and, in extremity, force of arms and physical force in general. It is in the appropriateness of how that force is employed that we see the difference between a decent man and a criminal (or a tyrant). I believe that the correct use of force is one of the most misunderstood and unjustly maligned concepts in our modern society. Almost all the great achievements in human history have required some application of force to complete and preserve or have been born as a direct result of conflict. Now we see it as a necessary evil at best or an obsolete remnant of some less evolved era at worst. Neither could be further from the truth.

It is, in my estimation, the general moral rejection of direct force as a valid and sometimes essential and admirable response that has castrated us in spirit. It is unseemly to even SPEAK in a manner that is overly forceful for fear of appearing overly pushy or opinionated. Conflict is to be eschewed at all costs in favour of conciliation, consensus and conformity which ultimately degenerates into passivity, apathy and general malaise. We, as men, are trained to divorce ourselves from that within us which is violent, forceful. Instead of owning it, embracing it and using it rightly in our lives for the preservation and betterment of our civilization, we reject it and are only allowed to experience it vicariously as a pail, twisted shadow of its true self in the form the aforementioned video games, movies, porn etc. (which I find entertaining as hell FTR).

By extension, “masculine men don’t show emotions” is a diluted reflection of another truth of masculinity, IMO. A man must be the master of his emotions not the other way round. At times this will mean he must conceal/restrain them through sheer force of will and self discipline. It is necessary for any functioning human to be able to display his or her emotions with passion and authenticity when it is appropriate. However any guy who is ruled by his emotions and wears their heart on his sleeve because they have no choice is, IMO, a child and so by definition not a man.

Similarly, the pursuit of physical strength, prowess and vigour is an inherently masculine impulse. It is an extension of my first point about capacity for violence. Sports are ritualized combat and preparing for sport is a substitute for preparing for war. Being better at sports/a more talented athlete does not make you a better man, but the dedication and intensity with which you practice/train does. Men need to compete. They need to struggle and strive to be living in the fullness of their manhood. They must fight and win and lose and bleed and cry and shout their triumphs and bear their defeats.

So while the old cliches are superficial and distorted, most of them carry a grain of truth in my opinion. That’s why they became cliches in the first place. To abandon them all together is throwing out the baby with the bathwater and we will all be much the poorer for it. In fact I would say our way of life would be doomed. [/quote]

That was a beautiful post.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Possibly. What is also possible is that people like Orion are on the side of the gov’t that wants to subjugate the populace.wait for it? Fuck, I consider him a FAR larger threat to my safety than the federal gov’t is.[/quote]

You can blow me and the horse I rode in on and dont think for one second that your inferior BJ skills will not be noticed.

Violence.

Its your answer to everything.
[/quote]

My “inferior BJ skills” will be noticed by you, eh? Is that your way of saying you’re a fine connoisseur of the male-provided BJ? I knew it.

Look Orion, you live in fear, I don’t. What are you doing to prepare for The Big Day? Just sitting here on your computer typing away is what it looks like.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

Take the whole gun thing. Who the fuck needs an automatic weapon?
[/quote]

Anyone who values freedom and self preservation.

Then you don’t understand history and politics. Democracy doesn’t and can’t last indefinitely. Armed citizenry are the only defence against the totalitarian regime that, by a logical progression must at some stage establish itself. America pays a high price for freedom but it’s a price that must be paid.

‘According to Polybius’ elaboration of the theory (of anacyclosis), the state begins in a form of primitive monarchy. The state will emerge from monarchy under the leadership of an influential and wise king; this represents the emergence of “kingship”. Political power will pass by hereditary succession to the children of the king, who will abuse their authority for their own gain; this represents the degeneration of kingship into “tyranny”. Some of the more influential and powerful men of the state will grow weary of the abuses of tyrants, and will overthrow them; this represents the ascendancy of “aristocracy” (as well as the end of the “rule by the one” and the beginning of the “rule by the few”). Just as the descendants of kings, however, political influence will pass to the descendants of the aristocrats, and these descendants will begin to abuse their power and influence, as the tyrants before them; this represents the decline of aristocracy and the beginning of “oligarchy”. As Polybius explains, the people will by this stage in the political evolution of the state decide to take political matters into their own hands. This point of the cycle sees the emergence of “democracy”, as well as the beginning of “rule by the many”. In the same way that the descendants of kings and aristocrats abused their political status, so too will the descendants of democrats. Accordingly, democracy degenerates into “ochlocracy”, literally, “mob-rule”. During ochlocracy, according to Polybius, the people of the state will become corrupted, and will develop a sense of entitlement and will be conditioned to accept the pandering of demagogues. Eventually, the state will be engulfed in chaos, and the competing claims of demagogues will culminate in a single (sometimes virtuous) demagogue claiming absolute power, bringing the state full-circle back to monarchy.’

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

Take the whole gun thing. Who the fuck needs an automatic weapon?
[/quote]

Anyone who values freedom and self preservation.

Then you don’t understand history and politics. Democracy doesn’t and can’t last indefinitely. Armed citizenry are the only defence against the totalitarian regime that, by a logical progression must at some stage establish itself. America pays a high price for freedom but it’s a price that must be paid.

‘According to Polybius’ elaboration of the theory (of anacyclosis), the state begins in a form of primitive monarchy. The state will emerge from monarchy under the leadership of an influential and wise king; this represents the emergence of “kingship”. Political power will pass by hereditary succession to the children of the king, who will abuse their authority for their own gain; this represents the degeneration of kingship into “tyranny”. Some of the more influential and powerful men of the state will grow weary of the abuses of tyrants, and will overthrow them; this represents the ascendancy of “aristocracy” (as well as the end of the “rule by the one” and the beginning of the “rule by the few”). Just as the descendants of kings, however, political influence will pass to the descendants of the aristocrats, and these descendants will begin to abuse their power and influence, as the tyrants before them; this represents the decline of aristocracy and the beginning of “oligarchy”. As Polybius explains, the people will by this stage in the political evolution of the state decide to take political matters into their own hands. This point of the cycle sees the emergence of “democracy”, as well as the beginning of “rule by the many”. In the same way that the descendants of kings and aristocrats abused their political status, so too will the descendants of democrats. Accordingly, democracy degenerates into “ochlocracy”, literally, “mob-rule”. During ochlocracy, according to Polybius, the people of the state will become corrupted, and will develop a sense of entitlement and will be conditioned to accept the pandering of demagogues. Eventually, the state will be engulfed in chaos, and the competing claims of demagogues will culminate in a single (sometimes virtuous) demagogue claiming absolute power, bringing the state full-circle back to monarchy.'[/quote]

And while all of this going on, I’ll be skipping along ignorantly blind to all of the tyranny around me. But I’ll be having a helluva time while doing so.

edit: and that’s Polybius’ take on it. Doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. I don’t think it will, you do think it will.

But then again, you don’t really believe any of this either, do you? If you do, what sort of precautions are you taking, or are you simply laying back, spreading your legs wide open and waiting for it to happen instead of being proactive about things?

Fuck, why wait? Why not just go out to D.C. now and start taking out all the motherfuckers on Capitol Hill that are going to contribute to this horrible eventuality? If you really feel this is going to happen you’re doing yourself and everyone in this country who you care for a serious, serious disservice by not doing something about it. Like Orion said, violence is our answer to everything, right? So get proactive. Or are you a selfish sonofabitch along with a paranoid one? Are you just stockpiling weapons for yourself in preparation for this eventuality? Do you have enough for me if I “see the light”, but not in time to go out and get my own arsenal?

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Possibly. What is also possible is that people like Orion are on the side of the gov’t that wants to subjugate the populace.wait for it? Fuck, I consider him a FAR larger threat to my safety than the federal gov’t is.[/quote]

You can blow me and the horse I rode in on and dont think for one second that your inferior BJ skills will not be noticed.

Violence.

Its your answer to everything.
[/quote]

My “inferior BJ skills” will be noticed by you, eh? Is that your way of saying you’re a fine connoisseur of the male-provided BJ? I knew it.

Look Orion, you live in fear, I don’t. What are you doing to prepare for The Big Day? Just sitting here on your computer typing away is what it looks like. [/quote]

Well, I live in a country with a police force of 30000 and ca more or less all milita army.

I hardly need to know more than how to operate a gun.

You on the other hand…

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

And while all of this going on, I’ll be skipping along ignorantly blind to all of the tyranny around me. But I’ll be having a helluva time while doing so.[/quote]

Indeed