So please explain to us how your tax burden has changed [u]over the past 5 years? [/u]
[/quote]
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Didn’t a tax holiday end just this year?[/quote]
I swear to god USMC the next time you actually take the time to READ a post and try to apply SOME sort of fucking method of comprehending it will be the fucking first. Yes the SS tax holiday ended this year, but news flash genius, it is at the exact same rate as it was FIVE years ago. Like I said…[/quote]
Well…Nice to talk with you again VT.
If one year ago I paid $7 in tax and this year I pay $9 in tax because the tax holiday is over, doesn’t that mean my tax burden has changed?
5 years is a long time to remain in the same tax bracket. Hell 5 years ago I was filing jointly on a Cpl’s salary so my burden has changed a lot in 5 years.
[/quote]
Yes, but it has nothing to do with health care. The tax holiday was for SS. But you knew that.
So please explain to us how your tax burden has changed [u]over the past 5 years? [/u]
[/quote]
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Didn’t a tax holiday end just this year?[/quote]
I swear to god USMC the next time you actually take the time to READ a post and try to apply SOME sort of fucking method of comprehending it will be the fucking first. Yes the SS tax holiday ended this year, but news flash genius, it is at the exact same rate as it was FIVE years ago. Like I said…[/quote]
Well…Nice to talk with you again VT.
If one year ago I paid $7 in tax and this year I pay $9 in tax because the tax holiday is over, doesn’t that mean my tax burden has changed?
5 years is a long time to remain in the same tax bracket. Hell 5 years ago I was filing jointly on a Cpl’s salary so my burden has changed a lot in 5 years.
[/quote]
Yes, but it has nothing to do with health care. The tax holiday was for SS. But you knew that.
[/quote]
I couldn’t remember what is was for, which is why I added this little thingy ? to the end of the sentence.
Curious what American doctors make compared to the rest of the world?[/quote]
What would it matter?
[/quote]
Interesting to note. To see what the differences are so you can trace the psychology.[/quote]
So you are surprised that somebody who works their asses off to get good grades from Jr. High on through college, JUST so they can get into med school and spend 10’s of thousands of dollars …JUST so they can go intern in a hospital for peanuts…might want to make some money after they are out?
SHOCKING.
We have the best doctors in the world, and they are paid accordingly…if you are jealous, go to med school.
Curious what American doctors make compared to the rest of the world?[/quote]
What would it matter?
[/quote]
Interesting to note. To see what the differences are so you can trace the psychology.[/quote]
So you are surprised that somebody who works their asses off to get good grades from Jr. High on through college, JUST so they can get into med school and spend 10’s of thousands of dollars …JUST so they can go intern in a hospital for peanuts…might want to make some money after they are out?
SHOCKING.
We have the best doctors in the world, and they are paid accordingly…if you are jealous, go to med school.[/quote]
First of all schooling in this country is way too expensive. Secondly I can’t say that we have the best doctors in the world. They are woefully ignorant of nutrition. I don’t care if they want to make some money just curious what their counterparts in the world make and what their schooling costs them? Is that a sin?
Curious what American doctors make compared to the rest of the world?[/quote]
What would it matter?
[/quote]
Interesting to note. To see what the differences are so you can trace the psychology.[/quote]
So you are surprised that somebody who works their asses off to get good grades from Jr. High on through college, JUST so they can get into med school and spend 10’s of thousands of dollars …JUST so they can go intern in a hospital for peanuts…might want to make some money after they are out?
SHOCKING.
We have the best doctors in the world, and they are paid accordingly…if you are jealous, go to med school.[/quote]
First of all schooling in this country is way too expensive. Secondly I can’t say that we have the best doctors in the world. They are woefully ignorant of nutrition. I don’t care if they want to make some money just curious what their counterparts in the world make and what their schooling costs them? Is that a sin?[/quote]
Is school cost the doctors fault? NO.
They spend an enormous amount of time and money to become doctors, and they deserve to get paid.
Your’s and Zcarlo M.D’s opinion of physicians is just so far from correct it is laughable.
First of all schooling in this country is way too expensive. Secondly I can’t say that we have the best doctors in the world. They are woefully ignorant of nutrition. I don’t care if they want to make some money just curious what their counterparts in the world make and what their schooling costs them? Is that a sin?[/quote]
Well, this is a first. I completely agree schooling is too expensive. And they are–generally speaking, not without numerous exceptions–ignorant of actual good nutrition.
But 1) being ignorant of nutrition is not enough for me to mark doctors down in grade. This is because they work almost exclusively with the clinical crowd. You don’t expect a strength coach to know the in’s and out’s of clinical post-surgery physical therapy. That’s not the population they work with. And that’s the reason we have physical therapists–to fill the niche created by the fact the strength coach has hundreds of other responsibilities in training healthy athletes of many different sports. Likewise, this is the reason we have clinical nutritionists–because doctors are busy diagnosing diseases, doing surgery, and everything else. The sheer volume of knowledge they have to cram into their heads just to do clinical diagnosis and treatments of all common diseases is almost unbelievable.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not happy that they suck at nutrition. I despise it. However, giving them proper grounding in nutrition would constitute a very significant burden of time, on the order of at least an additional year to year and a half of school with much, much more debt to pay for that time. It would also increase their workload, and that is why they have the clinical nutrition people in the first place. It is a needed niche to have a specialist by virtue of the vast pool of knowledge to keep up with. Same reason we have pharmacists in hospitals–whatever your stance on pharma is, there’s too much literature and work to put it also on the MD.
Also our definition of nutrition is different than theirs. Clinical nutritionists also suck at nutrition outside the hospital zone, but that’s another story. Again–different populations, different areas of focus. The kind of nutrition needed in acute disease or clinical deficiency is much different than the kind needed to function optimally at a world class performance level.
2)The rate of growth of medical knowledge is exponential at this point. There were roughly 1 million medical articles published in 2012 (not newspapers, medical journals and science articles). There is no way in hell a doctor can keep up with areas outside his expertise, the volume is too much. That is why I don’t blame them for being on the outs regarding nutrition.
[quote]
Today, a typical primary care doctor must stay abreast of approximately 10,000 diseases and syndromes, 3,000 medications, and 1,100 laboratory tests [6]. Research librarians estimate that a physician in just one specialty, epidemiology, needs 21 hours of study per day just to stay current [7]. Faced with this flood of medical information, clinicians routinely fall behind, despite specialization and sub-specialization [8]. [/quote]
Reread that and let it sink in. That’s from a chapter in a book called “The 4th Paradigm: Data-Intensive Scientific Discovery”. If you doubt the sources, I can find the actual articles numbered in the quote and post the bibliography. I’d rather not have to, but its your call.
“medical men strive manfully to keep up their knowledge of how the world of medicine moves on; but too often they are the first to accuse themselves of being unable to meet the duties of their daily calling…â?? He went on to say, â??The preparatory work in the study of medicine is so great, if adequately done, that but few can spare time for its thorough performance…”
Dr. Henry Noyes said that…in 1865. If it was that bad then, imagine the rate now.
Regarding your curiosity about how much doctors make here vs other countries and how much they spend in school here vs. other countries, there’s nothing wrong with that. In Germany and a number of other countries ALL collegiate and medical school bills are funded by the government–that means it is free for students to study.
Here are the average numbers for the US medical school prices for the 2012-2013 year.
Average Private Med School tuition is $49,000 PER YEAR (The cheapest private school in the country was Baylor at a “paltry” $30,000 per year.)
Average Public Med School tuition for non-residents is about $3,600 MORE expensive per year (52,000+), and around half that for residents depending on school. For the First Year of med school. Remember it’s going to be at least 4 years.
Add on to that the cost of medical malpractice insurance, which ranges widely for states but for which the middle/median cost (state wise) is Pennsylvania–where your Insurance costs for general surgery practice will range from roughly $28,000-50,000 per year! Internal medicine practice is much lower in cost, but can still cost upwards of $20,000 per year in some states (Florida expects you to pay about $50,000 dollars), and Ob/gyn can cost as much as $64,000. These are all 2009 figures and they are all verifiable outside the source I linked (I’m not going to look up the scholarly articles, but they exist and if you really wanted to you could find them).
However I think it abundantly clear from the above information about the workload we impose on our doctors that there is NO WAY a doctor spending the amount they have to in the states should see his salary decrease. We expect them to go into debt between $200,000-$400,000 for medical school, and then we expect them to a small working class or middle class salary for insurance every year.
Contrast this with Germany: University is damn near free–as of 2012 tuition is only required in 2 of the 16 states in Germany–the other 14 are state sponsored and free for students–and only costs 500 euros in those 2 states. Medical School is at University, so prices are one and the same for Germans. So, a German student will spend roughly 3,000 euros to undergo all of medical school.
If you have free education, then you can make a grand living on much less salary than if you go 200,000+ in debt and pay 30,000 per year in insurance. There is no freaking way I would ever support any policy or measure that had doctors making less money considering the facts above. The only way I would support a policy which resulted in lower wages for doctors here in the US is if the costs of education and medical insurace literally crashed into the ground–first. Not after we cut doctors pay, but before.
First of all schooling in this country is way too expensive.
[/quote]
Lets tackle this, and I will try to make it simple. Zep have you noticed that every topic you talk about is too expensive, and those topics are mostly paid by the government? When the government gets into an industry and starts allowing people to borrow at low interest rates, or giving people money the prices start to go through the roof. Healthcare (Medicare and Medicaid), College (Pel Grants, loans, and many other scholarships), Housing (FHA, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac), and the list could go on and on. It is called INFLATION. Price INFLATION will always be higher than wage inflation. This is why the middle class is disappearing.
First of all schooling in this country is way too expensive.
[/quote]
Lets tackle this, and I will try to make it simple. Zep have you noticed that every topic you talk about is too expensive, and those topics are mostly paid by the government? When the government gets into an industry and starts allowing people to borrow at low interest rates, or giving people money the prices start to go through the roof. Healthcare (Medicare and Medicaid), College (Pel Grants, loans, and many other scholarships), Housing (FHA, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac), and the list could go on and on. It is called INFLATION. Price INFLATION will always be higher than wage inflation. This is why the middle class is disappearing.
Do you understand?
[/quote]
Wow, since when do the costs of government run healthcare sectors outpace those of the private sectors?
First of all schooling in this country is way too expensive. Secondly I can’t say that we have the best doctors in the world. They are woefully ignorant of nutrition. I don’t care if they want to make some money just curious what their counterparts in the world make and what their schooling costs them? Is that a sin?[/quote]
Well, this is a first. I completely agree schooling is too expensive. And they are–generally speaking, not without numerous exceptions–ignorant of actual good nutrition.
But 1) being ignorant of nutrition is not enough for me to mark doctors down in grade. This is because they work almost exclusively with the clinical crowd. You don’t expect a strength coach to know the in’s and out’s of clinical post-surgery physical therapy. That’s not the population they work with. And that’s the reason we have physical therapists–to fill the niche created by the fact the strength coach has hundreds of other responsibilities in training healthy athletes of many different sports. Likewise, this is the reason we have clinical nutritionists–because doctors are busy diagnosing diseases, doing surgery, and everything else. The sheer volume of knowledge they have to cram into their heads just to do clinical diagnosis and treatments of all common diseases is almost unbelievable.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not happy that they suck at nutrition. I despise it. However, giving them proper grounding in nutrition would constitute a very significant burden of time, on the order of at least an additional year to year and a half of school with much, much more debt to pay for that time. It would also increase their workload, and that is why they have the clinical nutrition people in the first place. It is a needed niche to have a specialist by virtue of the vast pool of knowledge to keep up with. Same reason we have pharmacists in hospitals–whatever your stance on pharma is, there’s too much literature and work to put it also on the MD.
Also our definition of nutrition is different than theirs. Clinical nutritionists also suck at nutrition outside the hospital zone, but that’s another story. Again–different populations, different areas of focus. The kind of nutrition needed in acute disease or clinical deficiency is much different than the kind needed to function optimally at a world class performance level.
2)The rate of growth of medical knowledge is exponential at this point. There were roughly 1 million medical articles published in 2012 (not newspapers, medical journals and science articles). There is no way in hell a doctor can keep up with areas outside his expertise, the volume is too much. That is why I don’t blame them for being on the outs regarding nutrition.
[quote]
Today, a typical primary care doctor must stay abreast of approximately 10,000 diseases and syndromes, 3,000 medications, and 1,100 laboratory tests [6]. Research librarians estimate that a physician in just one specialty, epidemiology, needs 21 hours of study per day just to stay current [7]. Faced with this flood of medical information, clinicians routinely fall behind, despite specialization and sub-specialization [8]. [/quote]
Reread that and let it sink in. That’s from a chapter in a book called “The 4th Paradigm: Data-Intensive Scientific Discovery”. If you doubt the sources, I can find the actual articles numbered in the quote and post the bibliography. I’d rather not have to, but its your call.
“medical men strive manfully to keep up their knowledge of how the world of medicine moves on; but too often they are the first to accuse themselves of being unable to meet the duties of their daily calling…â?? He went on to say, â??The preparatory work in the study of medicine is so great, if adequately done, that but few can spare time for its thorough performance…”
Dr. Henry Noyes said that…in 1865. If it was that bad then, imagine the rate now.
Regarding your curiosity about how much doctors make here vs other countries and how much they spend in school here vs. other countries, there’s nothing wrong with that. In Germany and a number of other countries ALL collegiate and medical school bills are funded by the government–that means it is free for students to study.
Here are the average numbers for the US medical school prices for the 2012-2013 year.
Average Private Med School tuition is $49,000 PER YEAR (The cheapest private school in the country was Baylor at a “paltry” $30,000 per year.)
Average Public Med School tuition for non-residents is about $3,600 MORE expensive per year (52,000+), and around half that for residents depending on school. For the First Year of med school. Remember it’s going to be at least 4 years.
Add on to that the cost of medical malpractice insurance, which ranges widely for states but for which the middle/median cost (state wise) is Pennsylvania–where your Insurance costs for general surgery practice will range from roughly $28,000-50,000 per year! Internal medicine practice is much lower in cost, but can still cost upwards of $20,000 per year in some states (Florida expects you to pay about $50,000 dollars), and Ob/gyn can cost as much as $64,000. These are all 2009 figures and they are all verifiable outside the source I linked (I’m not going to look up the scholarly articles, but they exist and if you really wanted to you could find them).
However I think it abundantly clear from the above information about the workload we impose on our doctors that there is NO WAY a doctor spending the amount they have to in the states should see his salary decrease. We expect them to go into debt between $200,000-$400,000 for medical school, and then we expect them to a small working class or middle class salary for insurance every year.
Contrast this with Germany: University is damn near free–as of 2012 tuition is only required in 2 of the 16 states in Germany–the other 14 are state sponsored and free for students–and only costs 500 euros in those 2 states. Medical School is at University, so prices are one and the same for Germans. So, a German student will spend roughly 3,000 euros to undergo all of medical school.
If you have free education, then you can make a grand living on much less salary than if you go 200,000+ in debt and pay 30,000 per year in insurance. There is no freaking way I would ever support any policy or measure that had doctors making less money considering the facts above. The only way I would support a policy which resulted in lower wages for doctors here in the US is if the costs of education and medical insurace literally crashed into the ground–first. Not after we cut doctors pay, but before. [/quote]
Since nutrition is the key to good health I think it is something doctors should know. But I guess since Big pharma doesn’t make money off of it, nutrition will never be a focus. Viva la profit motive! Also I would say it does downgrade the level of respect our doctors should get. They are supposed to help you but their ignorance hurts you.
I’m for whatever benefits the majority and if that means cutting the salary of doctors- so be it! But we agree that schooling here is ridiculous.
As far as Germany is concerned they have some of the highest forms of government assistance but have not been greatly affected by the crash in the Eurozone. Especially compared to most of the other countries. This goes against conservative economics, just like the high cost of schooling and healthcare.
First of all schooling in this country is way too expensive.
[/quote]
Lets tackle this, and I will try to make it simple. Zep have you noticed that every topic you talk about is too expensive, and those topics are mostly paid by the government? When the government gets into an industry and starts allowing people to borrow at low interest rates, or giving people money the prices start to go through the roof. Healthcare (Medicare and Medicaid), College (Pel Grants, loans, and many other scholarships), Housing (FHA, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac), and the list could go on and on. It is called INFLATION. Price INFLATION will always be higher than wage inflation. This is why the middle class is disappearing.
Do you understand?
[/quote]
Wow, since when do the costs of government run healthcare sectors outpace those of the private sectors?[/quote]
When the gubment pays for people to go to med school…you realize that is an enormous bill right? That would now be a built in cost.
First of all schooling in this country is way too expensive. Secondly I can’t say that we have the best doctors in the world. They are woefully ignorant of nutrition. I don’t care if they want to make some money just curious what their counterparts in the world make and what their schooling costs them? Is that a sin?[/quote]
Well, this is a first. I completely agree schooling is too expensive. And they are–generally speaking, not without numerous exceptions–ignorant of actual good nutrition.
But 1) being ignorant of nutrition is not enough for me to mark doctors down in grade. This is because they work almost exclusively with the clinical crowd. You don’t expect a strength coach to know the in’s and out’s of clinical post-surgery physical therapy. That’s not the population they work with. And that’s the reason we have physical therapists–to fill the niche created by the fact the strength coach has hundreds of other responsibilities in training healthy athletes of many different sports. Likewise, this is the reason we have clinical nutritionists–because doctors are busy diagnosing diseases, doing surgery, and everything else. The sheer volume of knowledge they have to cram into their heads just to do clinical diagnosis and treatments of all common diseases is almost unbelievable.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not happy that they suck at nutrition. I despise it. However, giving them proper grounding in nutrition would constitute a very significant burden of time, on the order of at least an additional year to year and a half of school with much, much more debt to pay for that time. It would also increase their workload, and that is why they have the clinical nutrition people in the first place. It is a needed niche to have a specialist by virtue of the vast pool of knowledge to keep up with. Same reason we have pharmacists in hospitals–whatever your stance on pharma is, there’s too much literature and work to put it also on the MD.
Also our definition of nutrition is different than theirs. Clinical nutritionists also suck at nutrition outside the hospital zone, but that’s another story. Again–different populations, different areas of focus. The kind of nutrition needed in acute disease or clinical deficiency is much different than the kind needed to function optimally at a world class performance level.
2)The rate of growth of medical knowledge is exponential at this point. There were roughly 1 million medical articles published in 2012 (not newspapers, medical journals and science articles). There is no way in hell a doctor can keep up with areas outside his expertise, the volume is too much. That is why I don’t blame them for being on the outs regarding nutrition.
It also has less than 80 million people…why do you not get that things that work there, will not work here?
Since nutrition is the key to good health I think it is something doctors should know. But I guess since Big pharma doesn’t make money off of it, nutrition will never be a focus. Viva la profit motive! Also I would say it does downgrade the level of respect our doctors should get. They are supposed to help you but their ignorance hurts you.
I’m for whatever benefits the majority and if that means cutting the salary of doctors- so be it! But we agree that schooling here is ridiculous.
As far as Germany is concerned they have some of the highest forms of government assistance but have not been greatly affected by the crash in the Eurozone. Especially compared to most of the other countries. This goes against conservative economics, just like the high cost of schooling and healthcare.
[/quote]
So essentially you just ignored the entire sourced, data driven post I just made and went to general talking points without a hint of understanding why the cost of education and insurance drives healthcare costs up or why I say doctors pay should not be cut. In particular–that if you graduate near half a fucking million dollars in debt and half to pay a blue collar salary every year on top of that then you NEED the high rate of pay to pay back the debt you owe and insurance.
You also ignored the fact that I am not necessarily against doctors wages being lowered AS LONG AS their debt burden and insurance burden decreases by at least as much so that we can maintain a high quality of talent in the pool.
You also completely ignored the absolutely obvious correlation between research work growth and lack of time to become experts in nutrition ON TOP OF everything else they need. What part about 10,000 diseases and 1 million medical articles published last year did you miss?
In addition you also completely ignored the fact that we already HAVE nutritionists at hospitals and healthcare centers. Their job is SPECIFICALLY nutrition. So nutrition is not ignored, even though docs do not understand as much as we wish they did. There needs to be better integration of the two, but that is not to say that doctors need to spend another $100,000-$150,000 on an addition year to year and a half of school to focus solely on nutrition. Yes there does need to be better nutrition practice, but you are ignoring the reasons for the difficulty by invoking the magical “big pharma and profit motive” blanket terms.
In other words you went straight to ideology without thinking about the facts in front of you and what they mean.
I won’t waste another long time typing out a well reasoned post for you again. Thanks for warning me.
First of all schooling in this country is way too expensive.
[/quote]
Lets tackle this, and I will try to make it simple. Zep have you noticed that every topic you talk about is too expensive, and those topics are mostly paid by the government? When the government gets into an industry and starts allowing people to borrow at low interest rates, or giving people money the prices start to go through the roof. Healthcare (Medicare and Medicaid), College (Pel Grants, loans, and many other scholarships), Housing (FHA, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac), and the list could go on and on. It is called INFLATION. Price INFLATION will always be higher than wage inflation. This is why the middle class is disappearing.
Do you understand?
[/quote]
Wow, since when do the costs of government run healthcare sectors outpace those of the private sectors?[/quote]
I will take it your answer to my question is NO, because you do not understand how money works or simple economics.