Doctors Planning Exit Under Obamacare

Also, no offense guys, but just like I admit that politics and economics is not my field of expertise, many of you are making choices on truly lacking knowledge of the medical field…and that is not good if you are blatantly shouting down policies based on that lacking knowledge.

Two issues right here make me question the thought process;
-The idea that charities will somehow be able to provide for child care across the country in medicine

-the hands folded attitude and obstinance to bills passed even if it lowers costs and helps more people simply because of who passed them.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Also, no offense guys, but just like I admit that politics and economics is not my field of expertise, many of you are making choices on truly lacking knowledge of the medical field…and that is not good if you are blatantly shouting down policies based on that lacking knowledge.

Two issues right here make me question the thought process;
-The idea that charities will somehow be able to provide for child care across the country in medicine[/quote]

This is a major thing I agree with you on completely. It won’t happen and it’s not a good idea to contemplate.

This, on the other hand, I don’t see where you’re coming from. #1 I don’t see this giant cluster fuck of a bill helping anybody, or at least having a net positive impact, and #2 I don’t see why you are saying they’re against it just because of who passed it (Obama). The way I see it, they’ve been against “universal healthcare” for years before Obama–say…when Clinton was looking to get it done years ago before he gave up–and just because certain kinds of individuals tend to be the only ones who bring things up in legislature or push for them doesn’t mean they hate the bill simply because of who is behind it. RATHER, they hate the bill and unfortunately the same kinds of people seem to be constantly pushing it–other way around.

At least that is how I see it. I was against and have been against this type of program for years before Obama. I have been and was for reform of healthcare for years now, starting with simple things we could do to lower costs, like say allowing interstate competition amoung insurance companies. This isn’t a “hate Obama” rally. This pre-dates him.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Come on guys…read the fine print before loading the rifles.[/quote]

Right, because I want the supervision of a physician, rather than their treatment.

This kind of mentality is going to usher in a third world style of healthcare.[/quote]

Wow…you mean like in every dental and medical school across the country?

All it does is mean your practicing assistant with experience (who may be a woman) can do this as well as the doctor with the doctor standing there.

No “third world style of healthcare”. They do this everyday across the country and all it does is reduce fees for the patient.[/quote]

Then by all means you can be the first up to receive this type of healthcare.

I will sit back and observe, right next to the real physician.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Come on guys…read the fine print before loading the rifles.[/quote]

Right, because I want the supervision of a physician, rather than their treatment.

This kind of mentality is going to usher in a third world style of healthcare.[/quote]

Wow…you mean like in every dental and medical school across the country?

All it does is mean your practicing assistant with experience (who may be a woman) can do this as well as the doctor with the doctor standing there.

No “third world style of healthcare”. They do this everyday across the country and all it does is reduce fees for the patient.[/quote]

Then by all means you can be the first up to receive this type of healthcare.

I will sit back and observe, right next to the real physician. [/quote]

Lol.

In reality it now means one doctor can supervise several procedures at once increasing productivity and decreasing cost.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Come on guys…read the fine print before loading the rifles.[/quote]

Right, because I want the supervision of a physician, rather than their treatment.

This kind of mentality is going to usher in a third world style of healthcare.[/quote]

Wow…you mean like in every dental and medical school across the country?

All it does is mean your practicing assistant with experience (who may be a woman) can do this as well as the doctor with the doctor standing there.

No “third world style of healthcare”. They do this everyday across the country and all it does is reduce fees for the patient.[/quote]

Then by all means you can be the first up to receive this type of healthcare.

I will sit back and observe, right next to the real physician. [/quote]

I’m in medical school and will be doing this soon but when it comes to my family’s or my own treatment is want to person who has been doing it for many many years and is 100% certified to do it. I will pay extra for it but I expect to get what I pay for. Now I’m not hating on NPs. Once they are experienced and have been practicing great. But if they technically need someone standing over their shoulder sorry I’m taking my business elsewhere.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Come on guys…read the fine print before loading the rifles.[/quote]

Right, because I want the supervision of a physician, rather than their treatment.

This kind of mentality is going to usher in a third world style of healthcare.[/quote]

Wow…you mean like in every dental and medical school across the country?

All it does is mean your practicing assistant with experience (who may be a woman) can do this as well as the doctor with the doctor standing there.

No “third world style of healthcare”. They do this everyday across the country and all it does is reduce fees for the patient.[/quote]

Then by all means you can be the first up to receive this type of healthcare.

I will sit back and observe, right next to the real physician. [/quote]

Lol.

In reality it now means one doctor can supervise several procedures at once increasing productivity and decreasing cost.[/quote]
Wait so the doc is now watching multiple procedures at once? If not its not more efficient. You have two people being paid for a procedure which takes 1

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Come on guys…read the fine print before loading the rifles.[/quote]

Right, because I want the supervision of a physician, rather than their treatment.

This kind of mentality is going to usher in a third world style of healthcare.[/quote]

Wow…you mean like in every dental and medical school across the country?

All it does is mean your practicing assistant with experience (who may be a woman) can do this as well as the doctor with the doctor standing there.

No “third world style of healthcare”. They do this everyday across the country and all it does is reduce fees for the patient.[/quote]

Then by all means you can be the first up to receive this type of healthcare.

I will sit back and observe, right next to the real physician. [/quote]

Lol.

In reality it now means one doctor can supervise several procedures at once increasing productivity and decreasing cost.[/quote]

“Decreasing cost?”…meaning “cheaper”…hmmm.
No. The cost may (or may not, as we shall see) be less, but only if one is buying the same service or product.
I argue that is not the case, and I offer a recent example:

Last Monday, a woman in her late 40’s saw me for a routing scheduled visit. She had early breast cancer and was without disease for 2.5 years. After a careful review of systems and interval history, she told me that 3 days previously she had had a single headache which awakened her from sleep. She was without any other headache, fever, stiff neck or neurologic complaint. I took a social history; her two teenagers were without any illness or headache, fever or diarrhea. On my exam, she was without fever, the eye grounds were normal, there was no meningismus (neck stiffness) or any other neurologic or other complaints. At this point she was at very low risk for cancer recurrent in brain or meninges, and there were no findings to support meningitis. (If she had had bacterial meningitis, she would have been dead by then.) I asked her to call if headache recurred.
The next day, she called from her car saying that she had recurrent headache–no fever of stiff neck–and now had abdominal pain. The differential diagnosis now included shingles or enterovirus with viral meningitis; I asked her to go to the ER where I would re-examine her. Instead she went to her primary care doctor, elsewhere. She was evaluated by a Nurse Practitioner. Later, from her hospital bed, I determined that no physical exam was performed, but at the ER she had scans, an LP, and–long story short–she was later confirmed to have herpes simplex II meningitis. Note, please, that the Nurse Practitioner may have reported to her physician, but the physician never conducted an exam either.

The point is not that I missed a diagnosis in a minimally symptomatic patient, but that “under the supervision of a doctor” she in fact never got a doctor to examine her.

Was this the same service as a doctor’s exam? No. One can’t argue that the exam was deferred to an ER doctor, since it used to be the case that I saw the patient, looked in the eyes, and did an LP myself. The hidden costs here are extraneous use of the ER, scans (which everyone would now do out of fear of lawsuits), etc.

So then, we are now buying into the speculation that NPs can perform “under the supervision of a doctor” and provide the same acute care service at less cost, and thereby increase productivity. This has never been proven–with the possible exception of nurse anesthetists–and it ignores the proposition of hidden costs. There is clear evidence to the contrary: every study for decades has shown that for similar degrees of acuity, the cost of medical care in teaching hospitals is measures greater than in non-teaching hospitals. Hence, “physician extenders” or “staff in training” do not necessarily reduce costs but raise them.

The fascination with physician extenders is promoted by insurance companies in routine evaluations and is a trick of ledgering; the insurance company believes more services are being done with a cheaper resource than a physician, whereas the reality is that the costs disappear from the insurance company into the physcian’s overhead costs.

Writ large, whether in California by law or nationally by the pressures of Obamacare, it is not at all clear to me that we are buying the same service at a cheaper price or with better outcomes.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

-The idea that charities will somehow be able to provide for child care across the country in medicine[/quote]

Most Hospitals are Non-Profits so they are charities. I really do not know of any Dentists that are non-profits, but there are charities that bring in Dentists that are willing to donate their time.

I know Dentists that go around the world doing 2-3 weeks of charity work to help people who are really poor. Dentists come into schools all the time and hand out toothbrushes and toothpaste all the time. That is more education, and X you support education. This stuff is done free all the time by Charities.

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Come on guys…read the fine print before loading the rifles.[/quote]

Right, because I want the supervision of a physician, rather than their treatment.

This kind of mentality is going to usher in a third world style of healthcare.[/quote]

Wow…you mean like in every dental and medical school across the country?

All it does is mean your practicing assistant with experience (who may be a woman) can do this as well as the doctor with the doctor standing there.

No “third world style of healthcare”. They do this everyday across the country and all it does is reduce fees for the patient.[/quote]

Then by all means you can be the first up to receive this type of healthcare.

I will sit back and observe, right next to the real physician. [/quote]

Lol.

In reality it now means one doctor can supervise several procedures at once increasing productivity and decreasing cost.[/quote]
Wait so the doc is now watching multiple procedures at once? If not its not more efficient. You have two people being paid for a procedure which takes 1
[/quote]

And what happens should a complication arise where the doctor has to intervene, who is now “supervising” the other patients ?

Will another physician be called in to “supervise” ? But that physician was already supervising other procedures.

Playing musical chairs with patients is a plan for disaster. No thanks.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Come on guys…read the fine print before loading the rifles.[/quote]

Didn’t you read the article? The bill is to specifically address rural communities that DO NOT have physicians than can perform abortions! So there will be no Docs to “supervise” by standing there watching them.

The “supervise” term is a legal term. They DO NOT have to be present. It’s just they are operating under the direction of an M.D.

It’s like when a NP write you an RX. The doc is never present or looking over their shoulder, but they are operating “under their supervision”.

Again, read the article.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Also, no offense guys, but just like I admit that politics and economics is not my field of expertise, many of you are making choices on truly lacking knowledge of the medical field…and that is not good if you are blatantly shouting down policies based on that lacking knowledge.

Two issues right here make me question the thought process;
-The idea that charities will somehow be able to provide for child care across the country in medicine

-the hands folded attitude and obstinance to bills passed even if it lowers costs and helps more people simply because of who passed them.[/quote]

This is going to sound really harsh but I believe it is the only way to wrangle in the irresponsible among us. If you have one child that you cannot afford, maybe some government assistance should be given. If you then have a second, the woman should be given a choice, remove the ability for her to have children and continue to receive your assistance for two, or revoke all assistance altogether. If doctors wish to provide care to these individuals then that is great, but they are performing charity. They would not be reimbursed at all. Right now, you have women living in homeless shelters who are having babies while being homeless. That is a huge lack of personal responsibility problem. Why should I be taxed more so that doctors can take care of someone who contributes nothing to society but extra burden? If doctors want to take care of these people then let them foot the bill.

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Come on guys…read the fine print before loading the rifles.[/quote]

Didn’t you read the article? The bill is to specifically address rural communities that DO NOT have physicians than can perform abortions! So there will be no Docs to “supervise” by standing there watching them.

The “supervise” term is a legal term. They DO NOT have to be present. It’s just they are operating under the direction of an M.D.

It’s like when a NP write you an RX. The doc is never present or looking over their shoulder, but they are operating “under their supervision”.

Again, read the article.[/quote]

I read the article just fine. Whether an NP writes out a prescription, the doctor is responsible for that prescription. An actual surgical procedure is not the same writing a prescription.

There are some procedures that I can do that a credentialed assistant can finish. She can’t give anesthetic but she can finish a procedure and even suture. I have to be present for that to happen. It can not happen without me being anywhere around.

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

“Decreasing cost?”…meaning “cheaper”…hmmm.
No. The cost may (or may not, as we shall see) be less, but only if one is buying the same service or product.
I argue that is not the case, and I offer a recent example:
…example…

The point is not that I missed a diagnosis in a minimally symptomatic patient, but that “under the supervision of a doctor” she in fact never got a doctor to examine her.[/quote]

What you just described goes on in hospitals the world over. You don’t go to an ophthalmologist for a full physical exam if you go for eye surgery.

I stated decreasing costs because this now allows one doctor to head a full clinic where there could be several procedures going at one time.

This does not equal a decreased standard of care.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

And what happens should a complication arise where the doctor has to intervene, who is now “supervising” the other patients ?[/quote]

That would be a good reason to go over emergency care in your office.
You walk over to the patient and deal with it…just like I would if I were working on another patient when a patient has a problem in another room.

[quote]

Will another physician be called in to “supervise” ? But that physician was already supervising other procedures.[/quote]

Why can’t he just stop what he is doing and walk to the patient having a problem?

[quote]

Playing musical chairs with patients is a plan for disaster. No thanks. [/quote]

Wow…or it could be a plan to helping more people.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

“Decreasing cost?”…meaning “cheaper”…hmmm.
No. The cost may (or may not, as we shall see) be less, but only if one is buying the same service or product.
I argue that is not the case, and I offer a recent example:
…example…

The point is not that I missed a diagnosis in a minimally symptomatic patient, but that “under the supervision of a doctor” she in fact never got a doctor to examine her.[/quote]

What you just described goes on in hospitals the world over. You don’t go to an ophthalmologist for a full physical exam if you go for eye surgery.
[/quote]

The evaluation for a headache in a patient with a past history of cancer is not all that complicated. But if there was a concern for meningitis–as there was in this case–there is an absolute need for a physical exam of some sort, at a minimum including a neurologic exam and exam of the fundae. The patient in question did not receive that exam from the NP nor from the “supervising doctor.”

I argue that this is a different and inferior quality of service.

[quote]

I stated decreasing costs because this now allows one doctor to head a full clinic where there could be several procedures going at one time.

This does not equal a decreased standard of care. [/quote]

And it does represent a decreased standard of care. If it were the same “standard of care” it would be the same exam that I had performed the day before.

What costs were saved? Show them to me. Your presumption is that the doctor was doing other meaningful things…things more meaningful than evaluating a patient with acute meningitis?
Instead, another doctor–the ER doctor’s–time was used,more expensively,and arguably more tests and more costly tests were done (a CT done through the ER costs more to society than a CT done through my office or not done at all.)

If one does not see those costs, it does not mean that they are not there.
If one does not know a standard of care–whether an MD or an NP–then one does not know that a patient’s care is substandard.

If this is happening “all over the world” why exactly should we rush to embrace it?

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

The evaluation for a headache in a patient with a past history of cancer is not all that complicated. But if there was a concern for meningitis–as there was in this case–there is an absolute need for a physical exam of some sort, at a minimum including a neurologic exam and exam of the fundae. The patient in question did not receive that exam from the NP nor from the “supervising doctor.”

I argue that this is a different and inferior quality of service.[/quote]

I argue that this has little to do with this discussion other than saying there are bad examples of care in all areas of medicine…and basic diagnoses are missed in patients by physicians quite often to act as if this happens because of basic exams by NP’s. It happens because there are cross differential diagnoses.

[quote]

And it does represent a decreased standard of care. If it were the same “standard of care” it would be the same exam that I had performed the day before.[/quote]

I was referring to the topic, not your example. Using a credentialed NP to do what many women did by themselves for decades in their bathrooms with coat hangers for fear of social banishment does not equal a decreased standard of care.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

-The idea that charities will somehow be able to provide for child care across the country in medicine[/quote]

Most Hospitals are Non-Profits so they are charities.[/quote]

I am not sure how to respond to this. That doesn’t make the hospital a charity.

[quote]

I really do not know of any Dentists that are non-profits, but there are charities that bring in Dentists that are willing to donate their time. [/quote]

True. I have done that…and it barely makes a dent in the local population. I don’t think you understand just how much work on kids there is to be done to keep them healthy.

That is the only way you can think charity will cover even a minimum of the procedures needed.

…and I hope you realize that even with all of this, millions of kids are not getting care they need.

That helps a very small number of people…and usually at only certain times of the year.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

-The idea that charities will somehow be able to provide for child care across the country in medicine[/quote]

Most Hospitals are Non-Profits so they are charities.[/quote]

I am not sure how to respond to this. That doesn’t make the hospital a charity.

[quote]

I really do not know of any Dentists that are non-profits, but there are charities that bring in Dentists that are willing to donate their time. [/quote]

True. I have done that…and it barely makes a dent in the local population. I don’t think you understand just how much work on kids there is to be done to keep them healthy.

That is the only way you can think charity will cover even a minimum of the procedures needed.

…and I hope you realize that even with all of this, millions of kids are not getting care they need.

That helps a very small number of people…and usually at only certain times of the year.[/quote]

so you believe taking things from people that do take care of themselves, at the threat of a gun or prison, is the best thing to do? The government has zero money. All of their money comes from tax payers. So the government forces people to pay more taxes to take care of people. The government is now the charity.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

so you believe taking things from people that do take care of themselves, at the threat of a gun or prison, is the best thing to do? The government has zero money. All of their money comes from tax payers. So the government forces people to pay more taxes to take care of people. The government is now the charity.[/quote]

This isn’t about whether we think it is ok to steal money from people. It is about realistically, what the fuck do you plan to do with all of those dead bodies if you stop?

I am past the rhetoric on this.

To do what many of you are suggesting would require people to die in large numbers. Charity is NOT going to pick up the slack to the tune of millions of people the entire country over. That is a waste of time to even consider.

I am already taxed high. No, I don’t like it.

No, I don’t support new iPhones for people on wellfare.

However, I am also about stopping the bullshit and being real about a situation.

If you are ok with people being killed off, then by all means…believe that charity will save them all.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I was referring to the topic, not your example. Using a credentialed NP to do what many women did by themselves for decades in their bathrooms with coat hangers for fear of social banishment does not equal a decreased standard of care.
[/quote]

Well, I am sorry but you can imagine my confusion since you were quoting my comments, in a response, and not those of the OP.

As for the question of qualifications to perform an abortion, apparently the California legislature departed from your judgment in the matter, since they have voted down the law that would allow physician extenders to perform that procedure.