[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
I didn’t have a magic carry position, but I did have a little punch knife that sat behind my belt buckle. I could draw and strike with either hand, standard or reverse grip. Knowing I had a knife no one would see until I put it in their ribs while grappled, I just assumed everyone else did too.[/quote]
Probably not a bad assumption to make for safety sake.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]Pigeonkak wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Great discussion so far!
In regards to scanning the hands for blades; it’s a good practice, but it’s no guarantee. We actually practice a “concealed” knife carry position where you can see both of our hands clearly, but are unable to see that we are holding a blade and you probably won’t see it until you are being cut by it (if you fail to maintain a safe distance or get a false sense of security and mentally underestimate me/us and “drop your guard”). Mr. Ryan shows this to LEO’s all the time and it tends to shatter their paradigm that "if you can see the hands and no weapon, they don’t have one at their immediate disposal.
Now, obviously Mr Ryan is one of the best and most knowledgeable knife/blade fighting instructors in the world (IMO #1) and has probably trained more hours with blades than most people have even thought about combative training (armed or otherwise) and so was able to come up with this method of carry, but that doesn’t mean some other bad guys haven’t figured the same thing out.
In regards to the original topic; I agree that it’s a crappy situation to find yourself in and that when fighting unarmed against an ambush knife attackthe odds are against you, but it still beats the alternative of embracing your execution/becoming a victim. Like Robert said, you must make up your mind that you will survive and you must fight with everything you can until you either:
I also am not a huge fan of trying to control the weapon arm right off the bat; protect your vitals with less potentially lethal parts of your body, attack the CNS or vital targets ASAP, then take advantage of the momentary pause in attacks and:
I agree that you can conceal the fact that you are concealing a blade, BUT, the blade doesn’t just magically appear in your hand. There are signs that when searched for can be seen: The hand gravitating towards a pocket constantly in the heat of an altercation; a diagonal or vertical line created by a concealed knife in a pocket; the knifes pocket clip itself, hands behind the back, in a pocket, hanging on a belt; the posture of possible assailants shifting to hide the presence of the knife.
Even if you are wrong, you should be looking for an array of signs that indicate an attacker being armed and approach or escape the scenario appropriately.
The biggest problem with this is that you basically have to be a human attack radar. The issue already raised about us “switching off” at times is an understandable response we’ll have to certain environments. I mean, I preach constant awareness, but it is unrealistic to expect anyone to have such a high level of vigilance.
It’s more realistic to have a set of rules that you live by: Don’t go down dark alleys alone or in small groups, avoid dodgy pubs, avoid arguements, sit near an exit, etc etc that enhance your ability to either notice and escape or avoid completely any situation that results in a confrontation.
[/quote]
The carry position I am referring to would set off none of those alarm signals though, yet the blade is almost immediately accessible; which is why it is so unnerving to LEO’s when it’s shown to them.
The rest of your post I totally agree with though.[/quote]
Now, I have a basic suspicion as to the “magic concealed knife” carry method, but I wonder if you could provide a picture or describe it briefly? Actually, a picture of a suspect utilising this method from an LEO’s POV would be a cool exercise to demonstrate the technique.
Unfortunately I don’t have access to a good picture (well, at least that I have the rights to freely distribute on the web), but that would be a fun exercise. Give me a few days and I’ll try to take a picture of the carry position that I’m talking about and you can:
tell me if this position would set off warning alarms that the individual was holding a blade if you saw them standing this way
tell me where you think the blade is
Should be fun 
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Unfortunately I don’t have access to a good picture (well, at least that I have the rights to freely distribute on the web), but that would be a fun exercise. Give me a few days and I’ll try to take a picture of the carry position that I’m talking about and you can:
tell me if this position would set off warning alarms that the individual was holding a blade if you saw them standing this way
tell me where you think the blade is
Should be fun :-)[/quote]
Game on! The prize? Not being stabbed!
ABC brigade had this knife defence thing already figured out! :))))))
[quote]SKELAC wrote:
If you get attacked by someone with knife who is serious about taking you out,do you think you could defend yourself (in situation where running away is not an option)?
What would you do?
What are you doing to prepare for it?
What do you think your chances of survival are?
[/quote]
I’d totally own them. See they are really dumb for pulling a knife on me when I’m burning weeds with my flamethrower.
oh, wait, you didn’t specify the context, so I did.
Pointless question, but generally in the US knives are assassination weapons. You will probably only know he has one because your guts are on the floor after the initial ambush. It’s really easy to outsmart you then, since you are sliding off into shock…
Idaho’s post was spot on. He was trained to look at hands and call her when they were out of sight. Had he not done so and been on edge at that moment, she’d have won handily. Also, unlike guns which are not as common as people think, everyone has used a knife at dinner and seeing one coming at you causes more sheer terror than anything else because of the visceral understanding that it is going to be used on you. Don’t assume that since you have some awesome counter worked out you won’t just crap your pants then die.
– jj
My only contribution. I love knive and always, always have one on me. 4" is legal for open or conceal in TN. My blade is 3.75" I can stick it anywhere and ot go to jail.
[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
Knives are at least as dangerous as guns at close range.[/quote]
Especially with somebody that really knows how to use one. My jits instructor is lethal with a knife. He can carve you up like a turkey while you are wondering what just happened. We will actually train with plastic ones to work on handspeed from time to time.
[quote]MWP wrote:
[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
Knives are at least as dangerous as guns at close range.[/quote]
Especially with somebody that really knows how to use one. My jits instructor is lethal with a knife. He can carve you up like a turkey while you are wondering what just happened. We will actually train with plastic ones to work on handspeed from time to time. [/quote]
Try shock knives sometime. Great training tool.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
Knives are at least as dangerous as guns at close range. If a guy manages to get the drop on you with a knife it’s probably lights out. I’m pretty good and usually armed, but if the knife is between your ribs for the third time while you’re still processesing “he’s prison rushing me” it’s too late.
Assuming he waves it around first like a jackass, he’s getting shot until he stops moving. I’ve drilled pistol keep away on a rushing knife wielder before, with a decent draw and point shoot (and maybe leg kick) I’ve got him 8/10 times.
Unarmed against a knife? As above, and hope your insurance is paid up.[/quote]
Actually I’ve read that knives are 3x as lethal as firearms within their effective range. Bigger wound channels, even when wielded by an unskilled person they rarely miss and they never jam or run out of ammo.[/quote]
i dunno about that… guns kill way more people than knives, at least in the US (like 4x as many people)
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
[quote]batman730 wrote:
[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
Knives are at least as dangerous as guns at close range. If a guy manages to get the drop on you with a knife it’s probably lights out. I’m pretty good and usually armed, but if the knife is between your ribs for the third time while you’re still processesing “he’s prison rushing me” it’s too late.
Assuming he waves it around first like a jackass, he’s getting shot until he stops moving. I’ve drilled pistol keep away on a rushing knife wielder before, with a decent draw and point shoot (and maybe leg kick) I’ve got him 8/10 times.
Unarmed against a knife? As above, and hope your insurance is paid up.[/quote]
Actually I’ve read that knives are 3x as lethal as firearms within their effective range. Bigger wound channels, even when wielded by an unskilled person they rarely miss and they never jam or run out of ammo.[/quote]
i dunno about that… guns kill way more people than knives, at least in the US (like 4x as many people)[/quote]
Yeah, if you read a little further down, I go on to say I’m likely talking out my ass with that stat. Something someone told me once and I accepted it as fact and repeated it as such thereafter without really giving it much thought.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
[quote]batman730 wrote:
[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
Knives are at least as dangerous as guns at close range. If a guy manages to get the drop on you with a knife it’s probably lights out. I’m pretty good and usually armed, but if the knife is between your ribs for the third time while you’re still processesing “he’s prison rushing me” it’s too late.
Assuming he waves it around first like a jackass, he’s getting shot until he stops moving. I’ve drilled pistol keep away on a rushing knife wielder before, with a decent draw and point shoot (and maybe leg kick) I’ve got him 8/10 times.
Unarmed against a knife? As above, and hope your insurance is paid up.[/quote]
Actually I’ve read that knives are 3x as lethal as firearms within their effective range. Bigger wound channels, even when wielded by an unskilled person they rarely miss and they never jam or run out of ammo.[/quote]
i dunno about that… guns kill way more people than knives, at least in the US (like 4x as many people)[/quote]
Yeah, if you read a little further down, I go on to say I’m likely talking out my ass with that stat. Something someone told me once and I accepted it as fact and repeated it as such thereafter without really giving it much thought.[/quote]
The thing to remember in regards to lethality is that many of the gun deaths are either execution style (drive by, mass murders lately, gang violence, etc…), some are accidental, and some are committed by skilled firearms wielders in a combative situation (which would include self defense scenarios and law enforcement situations). Knives on the other hand are a much more intimate killing tool and are therefore less often chosen and very rarely the weapon of accidental death.
So, saying that guns kill more people than knives as a justification for lethality just isn’t a great argument IMO. And even if firearms are more lethal, batman’s stipulation “within their effective range” is an important one. Knives never jam, never run out of ammo, are multidirectional, have a deep seated fear response associated with them, can do damage by just touching you, are silent, and in the hands of a skilled wielder can be just as deadly IMO. But, obviously a firearm is effective at a larger range than a knife, so is more practical for a lot of contexts.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]batman730 wrote:
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
[quote]batman730 wrote:
[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
Knives are at least as dangerous as guns at close range. If a guy manages to get the drop on you with a knife it’s probably lights out. I’m pretty good and usually armed, but if the knife is between your ribs for the third time while you’re still processesing “he’s prison rushing me” it’s too late.
Assuming he waves it around first like a jackass, he’s getting shot until he stops moving. I’ve drilled pistol keep away on a rushing knife wielder before, with a decent draw and point shoot (and maybe leg kick) I’ve got him 8/10 times.
Unarmed against a knife? As above, and hope your insurance is paid up.[/quote]
Actually I’ve read that knives are 3x as lethal as firearms within their effective range. Bigger wound channels, even when wielded by an unskilled person they rarely miss and they never jam or run out of ammo.[/quote]
i dunno about that… guns kill way more people than knives, at least in the US (like 4x as many people)[/quote]
Yeah, if you read a little further down, I go on to say I’m likely talking out my ass with that stat. Something someone told me once and I accepted it as fact and repeated it as such thereafter without really giving it much thought.[/quote]
The thing to remember in regards to lethality is that many of the gun deaths are either execution style (drive by, mass murders lately, gang violence, etc…), some are accidental, and some are committed by skilled firearms wielders in a combative situation (which would include self defense scenarios and law enforcement situations). Knives on the other hand are a much more intimate killing tool and are therefore less often chosen and very rarely the weapon of accidental death.
So, saying that guns kill more people than knives as a justification for lethality just isn’t a great argument IMO. And even if firearms are more lethal, batman’s stipulation “within their effective range” is an important one. Knives never jam, never run out of ammo, are multidirectional, have a deep seated fear response associated with them, can do damage by just touching you, are silent, and in the hands of a skilled wielder can be just as deadly IMO. But, obviously a firearm is effective at a larger range than a knife, so is more practical for a lot of contexts.[/quote]
Yes, I took it to mean that a knife is at least as big of an issue at bad breath distance than a gun if either are in the hands of someone intent on making you dead and/or pregrnant.
Also, knive or even clubs are used in more homicides every year than rifles, but I seriusly doubt that a police officer on an active shooter call is going to see a rifle in the hands of a shooter and think “Thank goodness he doesn’t have a miracle blade.”
Regards,
Robert A
for whatever reason, i’m struggling to find stats on knife assaults on the DOJ site, but i did verify that guns result in about 4x as many deaths…
from what i’ve seen at work, getting stabbed very rarely results in death (only 2 in my 11 year career), but gunshots have a much higher incidence of death… off the top of my head, i’d have to say it has to do with the wound channel and things like that. knives are relatively superficial, whereas gunshots rarely are…
Over the years, I have put in a considerable amount of work on edged weapon defense, and I will say that it is very difficult. It’s a fascinating subject, but I think it is a tough skill to develop realistically.
In the course of my training, I’ve been exposed to a lot of different systems, styles, etc. (benefits of being a “big city” LEO, I guess). In all of that exposure, I would say the best tactic is always going to be make distance. I would never intentionally close with somebody wielding an edged weapon unless I was cornered and had no other options. Even then, I would focus all of my energy on going THROUGH them and keep moving. I’m not hanging around to try to disarm them or try anything fancy on them.
The current system I train in is a military combatives based class. We practice avoidance, creating distance, verbal de-escalation, and other tactics to GET AWAY. Left with no other choice we close distance quickly, stick exclusively to gross motor skill patterns, attack targets on the body to cause mechanical failure of our opponent, and we GTFO. We train with Shock Knives ™ all the time, and it’s a great reminder that even when you do things right, you are probably going to get cut. (Yes, they hurt. No, you won’t die from it.)
Also, I don’t know if anyone mentioned it, but learn current first aid techniques. (Self-aid and buddy aid.) Carry a tourniquet and a chest seal ALWAYS. (Those can come in handy even when there hasn’t been a fight.) If you can pack a weapon, you can find room for those two items.
Disclaimer: This is what I train for when I am off-duty…obviously, retreating is not always an option I am allowed when I am at work. My tactics at work remain similar, but my tools are different. I have more options available on my gun belt to eliminate threats of varying levels.
[quote]mapwhap wrote:
Over the years, I have put in a considerable amount of work on edged weapon defense, and I will say that it is very difficult. It’s a fascinating subject, but I think it is a tough skill to develop realistically.
In the course of my training, I’ve been exposed to a lot of different systems, styles, etc. (benefits of being a “big city” LEO, I guess). In all of that exposure, I would say the best tactic is always going to be make distance. I would never intentionally close with somebody wielding an edged weapon unless I was cornered and had no other options. Even then, I would focus all of my energy on going THROUGH them and keep moving. I’m not hanging around to try to disarm them or try anything fancy on them.
The current system I train in is a military combatives based class. We practice avoidance, creating distance, verbal de-escalation, and other tactics to GET AWAY. Left with no other choice we close distance quickly, stick exclusively to gross motor skill patterns, attack targets on the body to cause mechanical failure of our opponent, and we GTFO. We train with Shock Knives ™ all the time, and it’s a great reminder that even when you do things right, you are probably going to get cut. (Yes, they hurt. No, you won’t die from it.)
Also, I don’t know if anyone mentioned it, but learn current first aid techniques. (Self-aid and buddy aid.) Carry a tourniquet and a chest seal ALWAYS. (Those can come in handy even when there hasn’t been a fight.) If you can pack a weapon, you can find room for those two items.
Disclaimer: This is what I train for when I am off-duty…obviously, retreating is not always an option I am allowed when I am at work. My tactics at work remain similar, but my tools are different. I have more options available on my gun belt to eliminate threats of varying levels.[/quote]
Good Post.
Regards,
Robert A
The hypothetical situation in the OP seems to be too shitty to have a very in depth discussion about. What can you really do if someone has the means to kill you when you may or may not even know about it and you have no weapons? The obvious solution is run
But what about situations like this: Upham Freezes - Saving Private Ryan - YouTube
The fight starts at about :20. The knife wielder doesn’t have such a disproportionate advantage because the weapon wasn’t drawn before the opponent tried to prevent him from drawing it
[quote]Robert A wrote:
[quote]mapwhap wrote:
Over the years, I have put in a considerable amount of work on edged weapon defense, and I will say that it is very difficult. It’s a fascinating subject, but I think it is a tough skill to develop realistically.
In the course of my training, I’ve been exposed to a lot of different systems, styles, etc. (benefits of being a “big city” LEO, I guess). In all of that exposure, I would say the best tactic is always going to be make distance. I would never intentionally close with somebody wielding an edged weapon unless I was cornered and had no other options. Even then, I would focus all of my energy on going THROUGH them and keep moving. I’m not hanging around to try to disarm them or try anything fancy on them.
The current system I train in is a military combatives based class. We practice avoidance, creating distance, verbal de-escalation, and other tactics to GET AWAY. Left with no other choice we close distance quickly, stick exclusively to gross motor skill patterns, attack targets on the body to cause mechanical failure of our opponent, and we GTFO. We train with Shock Knives ™ all the time, and it’s a great reminder that even when you do things right, you are probably going to get cut. (Yes, they hurt. No, you won’t die from it.)
Also, I don’t know if anyone mentioned it, but learn current first aid techniques. (Self-aid and buddy aid.) Carry a tourniquet and a chest seal ALWAYS. (Those can come in handy even when there hasn’t been a fight.) If you can pack a weapon, you can find room for those two items.
Disclaimer: This is what I train for when I am off-duty…obviously, retreating is not always an option I am allowed when I am at work. My tactics at work remain similar, but my tools are different. I have more options available on my gun belt to eliminate threats of varying levels.[/quote]
Good Post.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
X2…Really good post.
[quote]law8 wrote:
I posted a thread here a few years back about getting held up at knife point. The gist of it was that myself and a buddy of mine were walking down this alleyway to take a short cut. a guy approached me on my left asking for a light. I said no sorry buddy or something to that effect. Right after this a guy started running in my direction and my focus was on him (thinking that he was going to take a swing at me). The dude who I had passed on my right sneaked up behind me and slightly pushed in a knife to my left lat .My buddy meanwhile was talking smack to the guy that had run up oblivous to the knife. He told me to come back into the Alley (I was just on the verge of exiting it) or he would stab me. I walked forward into the lit up street and my buddy followed suit. I got away with just a small cut and all my wallet lol. I’m not writing this to reflect on my super badass-ery but how switched off I was going about my day to day shit to allow some guy to get that close to me with a weapon.Since that occasion I am a lot more switched on. food for though I guess.[/quote]
Similar sort of thing happened to me about 6 years ago! I was walking through the city centre quite late at night and 3 guys came up behind me, 1 more closely than the others from the sound of his voice and held something at my back he claimed to be a knife and asked me for any cash i had on me, i replied honestly that i had none, after lots of chat back and forth (with my 16 year old self literally shitting himself) with him claiming “i will slash you bro” “… behind me is on the fone we’re going to bring the rest of the guys we will slash you bro if you dont give us the money” i agreed to walk over to a nearby cashpoint and get out what i had in the bank (thinking all along look ive got to make a run for it) … as i got to the cashpoint i tried to position myself so i would have a clear run out, as i pulled my wallet from my side pocket (i heard what seemed to be him chatting with the guys saying basically ring the others back this kids giving us the money and i felt the object that was placed against my back move slightly away) …so assuming he had turned away to talk i created a fist with my hand spun 90 degrees and swung it at the nearest guys face and then made a run for it! Ive never experienced adrenaline like it…Ive never run so far so fast in my life it was easily a mile and i literally sprinted the entire way until i made it to the train station and up the stairs (as i knew this would be where my mates would be waiting for me to catch up) - i turned around assuming they surely would have stopped chasing me, unfortunately they hadn’t! Luckily for me however the train platform was full of my mates, along with a large group of 30-40 year old men! i sort of blurted out the story just as these guys were running up the steps and they noticed this huge group that i had drawn the attention of, stopped, looked at me, looked at the group of men who were all walking towards them and turned and ran! I have never felt so relieved in my entire life! JUst thought i’d share this story with you all … as law8 said, not to be some sort of badass, but to realise how fucking frightening the situation was and how it could have ended so much more badly!
[quote]NikH wrote:
Who brings a knife to a gun fight?[/quote]
so much win right here.