This is actually my favorite knife/knife fighting video. Because it is funny. So, in the interest of comedy:
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]Robert A wrote:
[quote]law8 wrote:
I posted a thread here a few years back about getting held up at knife point. The gist of it was that myself and a buddy of mine were walking down this alleyway to take a short cut. a guy approached me on my left asking for a light. I said no sorry buddy or something to that effect. Right after this a guy started running in my direction and my focus was on him (thinking that he was going to take a swing at me). The dude who I had passed on my right sneaked up behind me and slightly pushed in a knife to my left lat .My buddy meanwhile was talking smack to the guy that had run up oblivous to the knife. He told me to come back into the Alley (I was just on the verge of exiting it) or he would stab me. I walked forward into the lit up street and my buddy followed suit. I got away with just a small cut and all my wallet lol. I’m not writing this to reflect on my super badass-ery but how switched off I was going about my day to day shit to allow some guy to get that close to me with a weapon.Since that occasion I am a lot more switched on. food for though I guess.[/quote]
About being “switched on”
I would purchase a copy of Jeff Cooper’s Principles of Personal Defense if you have not already. The technical stuff may be a bit dated, and seem specific to pistols, but the material on mindset and defense is fantastic. It is well worth the small asking price.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
Thanks for the suggestion Robert.
I have read Cooper’s “The Art of the Rifle” before and love his no bullshit approach. I will pick up that book you mentioned. I said it before in my post but it bares repeating. I never realised how little of my surroundings I really picked up and paid attention to before that happened.
Also in a semi-related theme when the guy pulled the knife on me I had the feeling of being frozen to the ground and “this shit isn’t happening to me”. Granted I only had some minor bjj and karate training at that point and could have just been a bit of a pussy but this vid has an interesting take on it.
Why would you not have a knife yourself?
[quote]Waylon Benning wrote:
Why would you not have a knife yourself?[/quote]
Read devildog’s post toward the top of this page. I generally get the sense he knows what the hell he’s talking about. Having a knife/weapon and accessing/deploying it effectively when it counts are two different things. In fact I would almost say that if you have the time and space to realize you are going to be in a knife fight and get to your own, presumably concealed, weapon and get in the fight you quite possibly have the time/space to get the hell out of dodge without getting in the fight at all, which is a way better option.
[quote]Waylon Benning wrote:
Why would you not have a knife yourself?[/quote]
You work in a government building.
It’s in your car.
Your buddy borrowed it.
You dropped it or left it in the last guy whose ass you just kicked.
I’m just a guy who has trained for a while in military, law enforcement, sport, and self defense settings. Nothing I say is gospel, I’m no Cooper or MacYoung, but I have been downrange and come back without either holes in me or men in matching outfits insisting I put on the cuffs and get in the car. Your mileage may vary.
Law 8,
To add to Roberts’ excellent suggestion, check out the following for additional reading:
-
No Second Place Winner by Bill Jordan ( dated but timeless)
-
To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth by Jeff Cooper ( dated but anything by Jeff is worth reading)
-
Lure the Tiger Out of the Mountains, 36 Stratagems of Ancient China ( required reading for tactics that apply to the area of operations, your personal and professional life).
" Read devildog’s post toward the top of this page. I generally get the sense he knows what the hell he’s talking about. Having a knife/weapon and accessing/deploying it effectively when it counts are two different things. In fact I would almost say that if you have the time and space to realize you are going to be in a knife fight and get to your own, presumably concealed, weapon and get in the fight you quite possibly have the time/space to get the hell out of dodge without getting in the fight at all, which is a way better option".
Quoted for truth: go back and read the first page, where I explained how I got cut. I had no time to do anything but blind reaction. I was lucky, not good.
“You work in a government building.
It’s in your car.
Your buddy borrowed it.
You dropped it or left it in the last guy whose ass you just kicked”
or you spend most of your time overseas ( or, hell, just traveling through US airports) and cannot travel with anything but your dick and a Bic pen…LOL
[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
[quote]Waylon Benning wrote:
Why would you not have a knife yourself?[/quote]
You work in a government building.
It’s in your car.
Your buddy borrowed it.
You dropped it or left it in the last guy whose ass you just kicked.
I’m just a guy who has trained for a while in military, law enforcement, sport, and self defense settings. Nothing I say is gospel, I’m no Cooper or MacYoung, but I have been downrange and come back without either holes in me or men in matching outfits insisting I put on the cuffs and get in the car. Your mileage may vary.[/quote]
Jim,
I am hoping no one here is questioning your credentials.
Waylon Benning,
I don’t know if you were trying to be dismissive, or if some people just sort of read the post wrong, but devildog_jim and idaho are two people whose opinions should absolutely be given consideration when it comes to interpersonal violence.
To add to the “Why would you not have a knife yourself list”
Add “gun free” or “weapons free zones”
Consider that there a bunch of locales where knives are considered “bad” for non LEO’s and as such are the purview of “special” classes or criminals.
[i]Example: Philadelphia, PA has some very interesting knife and gun laws. Multiple times they Mayor and Police Chief have tried to enforce the notion that State carry permits are not valid, that even sworn police officers from out of town cannot carry(because I guess, fuck LEOSA), and the law says any blade not directly tied to the work you are doing AT THE MOMENT is an illegal instrument of cutting.
I believe there is law on the books in N.J. mandating that knives are “weapons” unless they could be considered a tool for you job.
Chicago, murder capital U.S.A., has stringent knife laws.
LondonBoxer is under even more restrictions with regards to anything that could prove useful.[/i]
The other point is that merely “having” does not equal “bringing to bear”. No one has suggested using finger nails and bad language if you have better tools. In idaho’s story he was better armed than most non LEO’s have ever been, or are likely to be. He had a duty/service sized sidearm(as opposed to something smaller), likely carried openly(usually easier/faster to get to than a smaller gun I have to conceal), probably with multiple reloads. He may well have had some form of body armor. He may have had one or more knives and/or a backup gun. We know he was at close proximity to another officer whom we can safely assume was equipped somewhat similarly. Most of all, they had radio’s with which to call a bunch more similarly equipped men who had more than passing interest in their well being.
None the less he identified luck as the more important factor in his handling of the situation(I suspect that while he was lucky, a man of lesser skill or will may not have been…but I wasn’t there). In his scenario the time frame between “Drawing down on these women is contrary to my goals(de-escelation)” and “any level of force I can bring is justified(including turning Chicky McStabby Stab’s skull into a canoe) is both reasonable and warranted” was way too brief to allow access to any of the hardware he had. If you are serious about training for such things there are a frightening number of scenarios where you can “have” a knife/gun and it still might as well be on the fucking moon for all the good it does you.
Jim’s points about draw time pretty much encapsulates that.
Also, welcome to the forum.
Regards,
Robert A
I was actually trying to downplay my credentials a bit. Most of my training has been geared towards a fit young man subject to US law, occasionally with the legal protections thar come along with being sworn LEO or being in combat. My answers might not work for people in other circumstances, which is why I try to pepper my answers with disclaimers as to legality and ability.
[quote]Robert A wrote:
Consider that there a bunch of locales where knives are considered “bad” for non LEO’s and as such are the purview of “special” classes or criminals.
[i]Example: Philadelphia, PA has some very interesting knife and gun laws. Multiple times they Mayor and Police Chief have tried to enforce the notion that State carry permits are not valid, that even sworn police officers from out of town cannot carry(because I guess, fuck LEOSA), and the law says any blade not directly tied to the work you are doing AT THE MOMENT is an illegal instrument of cutting.
I believe there is law on the books in N.J. mandating that knives are “weapons” unless they could be considered a tool for you job.
Chicago, murder capital U.S.A., has stringent knife laws.
LondonBoxer is under even more restrictions with regards to anything that could prove useful.[/i]
[/quote]
Not to mention here in Australia, carrying a knife in any form is against the law.
I’m an electrician, and always have a knife (and pliers and two screwdrivers) in my pocket at work and if I walk across the road for lunch or when the day is done and have forgotten to take the knife out of my pocket (or the screwdrivers too probably), if a cop notices me I’ll be getting charged for having a weapon.
Even as a bartender I used to have a bottle/corkscrew opener with a tiny knife on the end, same thing. Once I leave work that is considered a weapon and I can be charged by police.
[quote]Kirks wrote:
[quote]Robert A wrote:
Consider that there a bunch of locales where knives are considered “bad” for non LEO’s and as such are the purview of “special” classes or criminals.
[i]Example: Philadelphia, PA has some very interesting knife and gun laws. Multiple times they Mayor and Police Chief have tried to enforce the notion that State carry permits are not valid, that even sworn police officers from out of town cannot carry(because I guess, fuck LEOSA), and the law says any blade not directly tied to the work you are doing AT THE MOMENT is an illegal instrument of cutting.
I believe there is law on the books in N.J. mandating that knives are “weapons” unless they could be considered a tool for you job.
Chicago, murder capital U.S.A., has stringent knife laws.
LondonBoxer is under even more restrictions with regards to anything that could prove useful.[/i]
[/quote]
Not to mention here in Australia, carrying a knife in any form is against the law.
I’m an electrician, and always have a knife (and pliers and two screwdrivers) in my pocket at work and if I walk across the road for lunch or when the day is done and have forgotten to take the knife out of my pocket (or the screwdrivers too probably), if a cop notices me I’ll be getting charged for having a weapon.
Even as a bartender I used to have a bottle/corkscrew opener with a tiny knife on the end, same thing. Once I leave work that is considered a weapon and I can be charged by police.[/quote]
Soooo the Crocodile Dundee Bowie knife is out of the question?
Hmmm… disappointing.
:))
[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
I was actually trying to downplay my credentials a bit. Most of my training has been geared towards a fit young man subject to US law, occasionally with the legal protections thar come along with being sworn LEO or being in combat. My answers might not work for people in other circumstances, which is why I try to pepper my answers with disclaimers as to legality and ability. [/quote]
Yet another reason to respect the hell out of you.
You recognize that “optimal” might change without the whole qualified immunity and agency indemnification against civil liability.
Some folks can’t tamp down their Delta Blood Ninja enough(hence the second video), others go to far and give the “just call 911” answer for everything.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]batman730 wrote:
[quote]Kirks wrote:
[quote]Robert A wrote:
Consider that there a bunch of locales where knives are considered “bad” for non LEO’s and as such are the purview of “special” classes or criminals.
[i]Example: Philadelphia, PA has some very interesting knife and gun laws. Multiple times they Mayor and Police Chief have tried to enforce the notion that State carry permits are not valid, that even sworn police officers from out of town cannot carry(because I guess, fuck LEOSA), and the law says any blade not directly tied to the work you are doing AT THE MOMENT is an illegal instrument of cutting.
I believe there is law on the books in N.J. mandating that knives are “weapons” unless they could be considered a tool for you job.
Chicago, murder capital U.S.A., has stringent knife laws.
LondonBoxer is under even more restrictions with regards to anything that could prove useful.[/i]
[/quote]
Not to mention here in Australia, carrying a knife in any form is against the law.
I’m an electrician, and always have a knife (and pliers and two screwdrivers) in my pocket at work and if I walk across the road for lunch or when the day is done and have forgotten to take the knife out of my pocket (or the screwdrivers too probably), if a cop notices me I’ll be getting charged for having a weapon.
Even as a bartender I used to have a bottle/corkscrew opener with a tiny knife on the end, same thing. Once I leave work that is considered a weapon and I can be charged by police.[/quote]
Soooo the Crocodile Dundee Bowie knife is out of the question?
Hmmm… disappointing.
[/quote]
Oh for fuck’s sake…
I cannot understand the disarming of a population under the guise of making them safer from those that would use arms/violence against them.
Every time I see pictures of Australia I think I would love to go, than something like this comes up. That and I am too much of a pussy to brave any of the jellyfish, octopus, sharks, snakes, spiders, or drop bears.
Side note: Is it possible to carry a crescent wrench around in your back pocket? Or has that dodge been tried too many times?
Regards,
Robert A
The way I see it, if someone comes at me with a knife and I HAVE to fight, I’m bound to be cut. But I’m hoping that 17 years of martial arts and self defense training minimizes the injury. Of course, I rather not put myself in any situation like that, but shit happens.
[quote]Robert A wrote:
This is actually my favorite knife/knife fighting video. Because it is funny. So, in the interest of comedy:
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
When I’m in the market for a “Ferris Wheel of Death” I insist on it having a “low pocket signature”. What a fucking idiot.
EDIT: Aha! I missed the end and realise this guy is having us on. BUT, there are many serious Mall Ninjas out there. I laugh in their collective faces.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Great discussion so far!
In regards to scanning the hands for blades; it’s a good practice, but it’s no guarantee. We actually practice a “concealed” knife carry position where you can see both of our hands clearly, but are unable to see that we are holding a blade and you probably won’t see it until you are being cut by it (if you fail to maintain a safe distance or get a false sense of security and mentally underestimate me/us and “drop your guard”). Mr. Ryan shows this to LEO’s all the time and it tends to shatter their paradigm that "if you can see the hands and no weapon, they don’t have one at their immediate disposal.
Now, obviously Mr Ryan is one of the best and most knowledgeable knife/blade fighting instructors in the world (IMO #1) and has probably trained more hours with blades than most people have even thought about combative training (armed or otherwise) and so was able to come up with this method of carry, but that doesn’t mean some other bad guys haven’t figured the same thing out.
In regards to the original topic; I agree that it’s a crappy situation to find yourself in and that when fighting unarmed against an ambush knife attackthe odds are against you, but it still beats the alternative of embracing your execution/becoming a victim. Like Robert said, you must make up your mind that you will survive and you must fight with everything you can until you either:
- can escape
- incapacitate your attacker
- die
I also am not a huge fan of trying to control the weapon arm right off the bat; protect your vitals with less potentially lethal parts of your body, attack the CNS or vital targets ASAP, then take advantage of the momentary pause in attacks and:
- gain control of the weapon arm/body
- make space and/or put an obstacle between the two of you so you can deploy your own weapon/escape/call for help
- continue to do damage until you can do 1 or 2.
[/quote]
I agree that you can conceal the fact that you are concealing a blade, BUT, the blade doesn’t just magically appear in your hand. There are signs that when searched for can be seen: The hand gravitating towards a pocket constantly in the heat of an altercation; a diagonal or vertical line created by a concealed knife in a pocket; the knifes pocket clip itself, hands behind the back, in a pocket, hanging on a belt; the posture of possible assailants shifting to hide the presence of the knife.
Even if you are wrong, you should be looking for an array of signs that indicate an attacker being armed and approach or escape the scenario appropriately.
The biggest problem with this is that you basically have to be a human attack radar. The issue already raised about us “switching off” at times is an understandable response we’ll have to certain environments. I mean, I preach constant awareness, but it is unrealistic to expect anyone to have such a high level of vigilance.
It’s more realistic to have a set of rules that you live by: Don’t go down dark alleys alone or in small groups, avoid dodgy pubs, avoid arguements, sit near an exit, etc etc that enhance your ability to either notice and escape or avoid completely any situation that results in a confrontation.
[quote]Pigeonkak wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Great discussion so far!
In regards to scanning the hands for blades; it’s a good practice, but it’s no guarantee. We actually practice a “concealed” knife carry position where you can see both of our hands clearly, but are unable to see that we are holding a blade and you probably won’t see it until you are being cut by it (if you fail to maintain a safe distance or get a false sense of security and mentally underestimate me/us and “drop your guard”). Mr. Ryan shows this to LEO’s all the time and it tends to shatter their paradigm that "if you can see the hands and no weapon, they don’t have one at their immediate disposal.
Now, obviously Mr Ryan is one of the best and most knowledgeable knife/blade fighting instructors in the world (IMO #1) and has probably trained more hours with blades than most people have even thought about combative training (armed or otherwise) and so was able to come up with this method of carry, but that doesn’t mean some other bad guys haven’t figured the same thing out.
In regards to the original topic; I agree that it’s a crappy situation to find yourself in and that when fighting unarmed against an ambush knife attackthe odds are against you, but it still beats the alternative of embracing your execution/becoming a victim. Like Robert said, you must make up your mind that you will survive and you must fight with everything you can until you either:
- can escape
- incapacitate your attacker
- die
I also am not a huge fan of trying to control the weapon arm right off the bat; protect your vitals with less potentially lethal parts of your body, attack the CNS or vital targets ASAP, then take advantage of the momentary pause in attacks and:
- gain control of the weapon arm/body
- make space and/or put an obstacle between the two of you so you can deploy your own weapon/escape/call for help
- continue to do damage until you can do 1 or 2.
[/quote]
I agree that you can conceal the fact that you are concealing a blade, BUT, the blade doesn’t just magically appear in your hand. There are signs that when searched for can be seen: The hand gravitating towards a pocket constantly in the heat of an altercation; a diagonal or vertical line created by a concealed knife in a pocket; the knifes pocket clip itself, hands behind the back, in a pocket, hanging on a belt; the posture of possible assailants shifting to hide the presence of the knife.
Even if you are wrong, you should be looking for an array of signs that indicate an attacker being armed and approach or escape the scenario appropriately.
The biggest problem with this is that you basically have to be a human attack radar. The issue already raised about us “switching off” at times is an understandable response we’ll have to certain environments. I mean, I preach constant awareness, but it is unrealistic to expect anyone to have such a high level of vigilance.
It’s more realistic to have a set of rules that you live by: Don’t go down dark alleys alone or in small groups, avoid dodgy pubs, avoid arguements, sit near an exit, etc etc that enhance your ability to either notice and escape or avoid completely any situation that results in a confrontation.
[/quote]
The carry position I am referring to would set off none of those alarm signals though, yet the blade is almost immediately accessible; which is why it is so unnerving to LEO’s when it’s shown to them.
The rest of your post I totally agree with though.
I didn’t have a magic carry position, but I did have a little punch knife that sat behind my belt buckle. I could draw and strike with either hand, standard or reverse grip. Knowing I had a knife no one would see until I put it in their ribs while grappled, I just assumed everyone else did too.
[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
I didn’t have a magic carry position, but I did have a little punch knife that sat behind my belt buckle. I could draw and strike with either hand, standard or reverse grip. Knowing I had a knife no one would see until I put it in their ribs while grappled, I just assumed everyone else did too.[/quote]
Sound assumption. Not to mention that the bad guys often have the initiative in these types of deals as they might begin by intending to stab someone. As such they may very well already have their weapon discreetly in hand before things get rolling, while the rest of us are playing catch-up after the contact starts.