Do You Believe in God?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
402

[quote]orion wrote:
ZEB wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
Hey I reckon there was a carpenter called Jesus that lived in the middle east 2000 years ago, I believe he had a bunch of buddies that were all extremely talented story tellers, I also believe that these people got togehter and wrote the majotity of what is the bible.

Where is the logic?

If they were making up stories then how come they purposely died for these stories when they could have recanted and lived?

How many times in the past have we ever seen large groups of people die purposely for a lie?

Think about it.

A few hundred million in the 20th century alone?[/quote]

One can die for what they believe to be true, but is in fact false. However, many who knew Christ best died horrible deaths when they could have avoided it by renouncing him. They knew the truth and would not back away from it. That takes courage of conviction.

How strong would either of us be under similar conditions, even if we were telling the truth?

Most would renounce the truth in order to save their lives, but the Apostles did not.

Tell me why?

403

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Yes, I absolutely believe in God.

What I don’t believe is that God would send someone to a fiery pit of hell to burn for an eternity. To believe so is very contradictory to the concept that God loves us for forever and always forgives. [/quote]

How do you know that this is true? How did you come to believe this?

404

Of course this is all predicated on the belief that the Bible is in fact true,and historically accurate to boot.

405

[quote]ZEB wrote:
orion wrote:
ZEB wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
Hey I reckon there was a carpenter called Jesus that lived in the middle east 2000 years ago, I believe he had a bunch of buddies that were all extremely talented story tellers, I also believe that these people got togehter and wrote the majotity of what is the bible.

Where is the logic?

If they were making up stories then how come they purposely died for these stories when they could have recanted and lived?

How many times in the past have we ever seen large groups of people die purposely for a lie?

Think about it.

A few hundred million in the 20th century alone?

One can die for what they believe to be true, but is in fact false. However, many who knew Christ best died horrible deaths when they could have avoided it by renouncing him. They knew the truth and would not back away from it. That takes courage of conviction.

How strong would either of us be under similar conditions, even if we were telling the truth?

Most would renounce the truth in order to save their lives, but the Apostles did not.

Tell me why?

[/quote]

because they were proper stoned out of their little monkey nuts?

Only joking Zeb, I appreciate your resposes, I am open to hear othe ropinions, right now I have not had much chance to give thought as to why these people would die for what they believed, if that did actually happen.

maybe it is peotic licience on the part of who wrote the bible, maybe these people did beg for their lives at the hands of the romans, maybe they did renouce Jesus in the hope of not being killed. But that would have not made good reading would it?

I will give it some thought Zeb

406

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Most would renounce the truth in order to save their lives

[/quote]

Galileo didn’t.

407

Ok here is a biggy for you believers out there!

Many of you believe in god because you cannot comprehend that our universe just happened, you believe that it must have required a much mightier power/force (god) to create it and us.

By your logic then there must have been a much more powerful force that created god, and a more powerful force that created that god.

By your logic of how something so amazingly complex must be created by another force, then there must be an infinite number of gods that are more mightier and more powerful than ‘your god’

I am interested those of you who do believe in god do you believe there is also an infinite number of gods before your god?

408

[quote]electric_eales wrote:

Ok here is a biggy for you believers out there!

Many of you believe in god because you cannot comprehend that our universe just happened, you believe that it must have required a much mightier power/force (god) to create it and us.

By your logic then there must have been a much more powerful force that created god, and a more powerful force that created that god.

By your logic of how something so amazingly complex must be created by another force, then there must be an infinite number of gods that are more mightier and more powerful than ‘your god’

I am interested those of you who do believe in god do you believe there is also an infinite number of gods before your god?

My head just exploded…

but my answer to the OP is yes.

[/quote]

409

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Most would renounce the truth in order to save their lives, but the Apostles did not.

Tell me why?[/quote]

How does this argument show the truth of anything?

A lot of religions have devout adherents who have died for their beliefs.

None of their deaths made any difference in establishing the objective truth of their beliefs.

It only shows that they truly and honestly believed what they believed; that it was true for them.

That in no way verifies the objective truth of it.

Even in modern times, you have people strapping on bombs and “martyring” (their term) themselves because they truly believe they will be rewarded in the afterlife.

Do they convince you that you should convert to Islam? If not, why would making the same argument be valid for you?

410

[quote]ZEB wrote:
The only way that sin can be forgiven now is through our belief in God sending his one and only son as a sacrifice for our sins.[/quote]

If someone does not believe in the existence of God, he certainly doesn’t believe in the dogma of Original Sin either.

How about just being nice to people for the sake of being nice and not because there’s a big lollipop waiting for you at the end?

411

[quote]ZEB wrote:
orion wrote:
ZEB wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
Hey I reckon there was a carpenter called Jesus that lived in the middle east 2000 years ago, I believe he had a bunch of buddies that were all extremely talented story tellers, I also believe that these people got togehter and wrote the majotity of what is the bible.

Where is the logic?

If they were making up stories then how come they purposely died for these stories when they could have recanted and lived?

How many times in the past have we ever seen large groups of people die purposely for a lie?

Think about it.

A few hundred million in the 20th century alone?

One can die for what they believe to be true, but is in fact false. However, many who knew Christ best died horrible deaths when they could have avoided it by renouncing him. They knew the truth and would not back away from it. That takes courage of conviction.

How strong would either of us be under similar conditions, even if we were telling the truth?

Most would renounce the truth in order to save their lives, but the Apostles did not.

Tell me why?

[/quote]

I’m sure many of Jim Jones followers had faith in him also.

Just because the apostles believed what they were saying that does not make it true.

412

Haven’t we covered this before?

413

[quote]ZEB wrote:
First, most of the Apostles died horrible deaths for NOT renouncing Jesus Christ as God.[/quote]

I was checking out that claim, and… well I can hardly find anything about the apostles.

In the Bible, there is mention of Judas Iscariot (who either committed suicide by hanging himself [Matthew 27:5] or fell down and exploded* [Acts 1:18]). He’s out.

John has no mention of martyrdom; he apparently died of old age.

Acts 12:2 mention James, son of Zebedee being killed by a sword (by Herod or, I guess, at his command). No details are given, no mention of if he was given the option to recant.

Simon Peter: Jesus said he’d be crucified, but there is no mention of the event itself. Or I couldn’t find it.

Next… well there is no next. I couldn’t find anything else in the Bible about the apostles. At least not about their deaths.

So, where is all the evidence for those martyr refusing to save their lives by renouncing Jesus?

Are they only Christian urban legends?

  • I shit you not: “…and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.”

F A T A L I T Y </>

414

[quote]pookie wrote:
ZEB wrote:
First, most of the Apostles died horrible deaths for NOT renouncing Jesus Christ as God.

I was checking out that claim, and… well I can hardly find anything about the apostles.

In the Bible, there is mention of Judas Iscariot (who either committed suicide by hanging himself [Matthew 27:5] or fell down and exploded* [Acts 1:18]). He’s out.

John has no mention of martyrdom; he apparently died of old age.

Acts 12:2 mention James, son of Zebedee being killed by a sword (by Herod or, I guess, at his command). No details are given, no mention of if he was given the option to recant.

Simon Peter: Jesus said he’d be crucified, but there is no mention of the event itself. Or I couldn’t find it.

Next… well there is no next. I couldn’t find anything else in the Bible about the apostles. At least not about their deaths.

So, where is all the evidence for those martyr refusing to save their lives by renouncing Jesus?

Are they only Christian urban legends?

  • I shit you not: “…and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.”

F A T A L I T Y </>

[/quote]

None are found in the Bible. Many of them are recorded by the early church fathers.

Paul is recorded as being in prission awaiting death from 2 timothy.

He was beheaded.

Peter was not only crucified but the stories goes he requested to be crucified upside down because he was unworthy of the same death as Christ.

James the brother of Jesus was thrown off the temple lived, and then hit with a blunt object from the alter which ultimatly killed him.

you could get this same info from foxe’s book of martyrs.
free when you download it from e-sword.net

415

[quote]haney1 wrote:
None are found in the Bible. Many of them are recorded by the early church fathers.[/quote]

Recorded where? And how authentic are those notes?

The Josephus forgeries fooled a lot of people for a very long time.

[quote]Paul is recorded as being in prission awaiting death from 2 timothy.

He was beheaded.[/quote]

Missed that one. Any details on whether he had the chance to recant and refused?

Another story… There are a lot of stories. Any official records of those deaths somewhere?

So Judas falls down and explodes, but James is thrown off the temple and survives?

It really paid off not to skimp on tunic quality.

[quote]you could get this same info from foxe’s book of martyrs.
free when you download it from e-sword.net[/quote]

I’m sure I can find those stories in any number of Christian books. I’d be more interested in less biased sources.

I’m sure Zeb has done his homework and will be able to provide ample corroborating evidence.

416

[quote]electric_eales wrote:
Ok here is a biggy for you believers out there!

I am interested those of you who do believe in god do you believe there is also an infinite number of gods before your god?
[/quote]

No, only one. Even if there were numerous god’s that created other god’s you would have an infinite regression that would go on forever.

However, the general monotheist defines God as wholy self sufficent and would therefore not require a creator.

The reason I and other monotheists would make the argument that the universe and everything within it neccesitates a creator would be because of law of biogenesis and the first and second law of thermodynamics.

417

[quote]solafide55 wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
Ok here is a biggy for you believers out there!

I am interested those of you who do believe in god do you believe there is also an infinite number of gods before your god?

No, only one. Even if there were numerous god’s that created other god’s you would have an infinite regression that would go on forever.

However, the general monotheist defines God as wholy self sufficent and would therefore not require a creator.

The reason I and other monotheists would make the argument that the universe and everything within it neccesitates a creator would be because of law of biogenesis and the first and second law of thermodynamics.
[/quote]

I am not sure how the law of biogenesis (or do you mean abiogenesis?) or thermodynamics can translate into the universe requiring a creator, but you are now at least speaking my kind of language, I appreciate someone trying to evidence the existence of god with science.

I would love to here your elaborations on these theories

418

[quote]electric_eales wrote:
Ok here is a biggy for you believers out there!

Many of you believe in god because you cannot comprehend that our universe just happened, you believe that it must have required a much mightier power/force (god) to create it and us.

By your logic then there must have been a much more powerful force that created god, and a more powerful force that created that god.

By your logic of how something so amazingly complex must be created by another force, then there must be an infinite number of gods that are more mightier and more powerful than ‘your god’

I am interested those of you who do believe in god do you believe there is also an infinite number of gods before your god?

[/quote]

God is the creator and upholder of all reality, an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, infinite and eternal spirit personality. God just IS.

419

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
Ok here is a biggy for you believers out there!

Many of you believe in god because you cannot comprehend that our universe just happened, you believe that it must have required a much mightier power/force (god) to create it and us.

By your logic then there must have been a much more powerful force that created god, and a more powerful force that created that god.

By your logic of how something so amazingly complex must be created by another force, then there must be an infinite number of gods that are more mightier and more powerful than ‘your god’

I am interested those of you who do believe in god do you believe there is also an infinite number of gods before your god?

God is the creator and upholder of all reality, an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, infinite and eternal spirit personality. God just IS.

[/quote]

and you know this because…

420

I in no way claim to be a expert in science. I do have a passing interest, but it is possible that I confused the terms biogenesis and abiogenesis.

However it was my understanding that abiogenesis refers to spontaneous generation or that life does not necissarily need to come from life, that it can be generated given the proper conditions. To my knowlege these conditions are yet unknown.

As for biogenesis (if that is the correct terminology) being a proof for a creator it would be pretty staright forward. When we observe lving creatures in our environment they only come from other living creatures. They never just appear out of thin air. If one holds a truly atheistic viewpoint there dilema is in what kick started the begning, where did the information, matter, and substances come from the began the cosmos and life as we know it.

Most theists will tell you it was God, the uncaused cause. Science rules out a priori the uncaused cause or God from the equation so they are left with what I see as an unanswerable dilema.

The complexity, intracate details, and fragility of life point more towards a creator, rather then naturalitic means.

To prove that with 100% certainty either way would require us to be there in the beginning of time.

I believe that the real problem is the presuppositions we come to the table with, which filter the evidence that we see.

From what I see the theistic approach explains more of the data.

421

[quote]solafide55 wrote:
Most theists will tell you it was God, the uncaused cause. Science rules out a priori the uncaused cause or God from the equation so they are left with what I see as an unanswerable dilema.[/quote]

Why unanswerable?

Why? What’s unnatural about life? I also disagree about any fragility: The globe is covered in life. Life, once started, seems to be quite enduring.

The question of how life started from non-life (which is abiogenesis) is another scientific question and while a hard one, is hardly impossible to answer. At least, no one has yet proven that it is impossible to answer it.

Not really. If you can create in a laboratory conditions where non-living elements spontaneously from into self-replicators, you have shown that it is possible, given the known elements and laws of physics, for non-living materials to assemble, by random chance, into self-replicating molecules.

Whether it turns out to be the exact same process as the one that took place 4 billion years ago is not really important. Simply showing that life can start from non-living elements on its own when the right conditions are present would be enough.

Once you have simple self-replicators, evolution explains the rest.

Note that the initial life forms would be rather simpler than what we generally think of when we say “life.” We’re not talking about a fish spontaneously forming in dirty water, or even a microbe here.

I’ll let you ponder who has presuppositions here.

It actually explains nothing. It simply invents unverifiable answers to difficult questions. The process is often referred to as “The God of the gaps.” Any question not yet elucidated by science is claimed to be unanswerable forever and attributed to willful acts of God.